Welcome to Missionary Chat.

Thank you for your interest in talking to a missionary from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The purpose of Mormon.org chat is to answer basic questions about the church and its beliefs and to provide opportunities to learn more.

Before we begin, will you share a little about what brought you to chat with us?

A missionary will be with you shortly.
Agent [Ryan] is ready to assist you.
Ryan: Hi Preston, how are you this evening?
Me: Fine thank you and yourself
Me: Where are you based? I'm in Cali and it's late.
Ryan: Utah
Ryan: It's pretty late here, too
Ryan: I'm doing well, thanks
Me: So you are not at the Mission Control Center?
Ryan: what brings you to Mormon.org tonight?
Ryan: haha
Ryan: yes, Mission Control
Ryan: also known as the Missionary Training Center (MTC)
Me: Why did Joseph Smith need to marry teenagers and already legally married woman?
Ryan: ah, I see
Ryan: which sites have you been visiting then?
Me: I just don't get it? Family search.org
Me: And double checked d it on www.wivesofjosephsmith.org
Ryan: can you tell me where it is on familysearch.org?
Me: It sounds more like Warren Jeffs than the clean cut wholesome respectable image today.
Me: Sure http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7762167&lds=0
Ryan: it is true that many church members in the earlier days practiced polygamy
Me: Yeah, but children and other dude's wives? It sounds like a power trip to the average guy.
Me: An perverted
Me: Helen Mar Kimball was only 14. born on aug 20 1828 and married him May 1843. http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=1187464&lds=0
Ryan: Sounds pretty sketch
Ryan: But we weren't there
Me: How is that justified at the MTC?
Ryan: I won't try and justify it for you, don't worry
Ryan: I guess I can say I don't understand the context
Me: Context or con-sext, because I don't get either, either
Me: http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=7106574&lds=0 Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young. Married to Henry Jacobs in March 1841, then married to Joseph Smith a few months later in October 1841. She continues living with Jacobs, and after Smith is killed, she is also married to Brigham Young in Feb. 1846. She still continues to live with Jacobs for awhile, but eventually ends up being one of Young's many plural wives in all senses of the term. She has two sons by Jacob and a daughter by Young. This is one of the more illustrative examples of the practice of polyandry (women married to more than one man), which isn't well known among TBMs, but is documented right there on the LDS genealogy website.
Ryan: So what got you interested enough inthe first place to fo searching through familysearch?
Ryan: Or is all this posted somewhere?
Me: Somebody at the gym was bagging on Romney and said to check it out
Me: It all sounds like trading cattle.
Ryan: Right
Me: Did you know that Smith married teenagers and other men's wives? The guy at the gym was an ex missionary and said that he never knew about it, even after serving a mission and attending BYU.
Ryan: Yeah, I'd read about it before (you hear everything on this chat)
Ryan: And I took a class about Joseph's life
Ryan: and they discussed it a bit
Ryan: and there really is no explanation for it
Ryan: you know?
Ryan: But it doesn't change the way I believe
Ryan: I hope, in my heart, that there is some explanantion for it, but there doesn't need to be
Ryan: In my mind, it comes down to the Book of Mormon
Ryan: and if that's true, then he must have been a prophet
Me: Child rape doesn't need to be explained?
Ryan: Ok, chill, he didn't rape anyone.
Ryan: You can't point at a wedding certificate and know everything about a man.
Me: Married 14 year old girls and having sex with them is statutory
Me: and illegal
Ryan: yes, today it is
Me: Back then too
Ryan: in many places and times 14 was a very common age to marry at
Me: Menstruation didn't start until 16-17 in the 19th century according to webmd
Ryan: Great
Ryan: So this is your first experience with Mormonism?
Me: Actually, after getting tickets to the BOM musical I've been absolutely fascinated with the whole religion. And Romney, and Huntsman
Me: It's the Mormon era
Ryan: yeah it true
Me: You guys have the most fascinating history of any organized religion. It is absolutely amazing! You gonna see the play or listen to the cd?
Ryan: I've listen to a few of the songs
Ryan: I actually like some of them
Ryan: But the whole thing kind of mocks my whoel faith thing..so, I don't think I'll give it those two big thumbs up
Me: Yeah, the first 3 seem to be almost written by your church and then Hasa Diga Eebowai comes into play
Ryan: haha, yeah some are spot on
Me: Where are you serving?
Ryan: I'm actually a university student at BYU right now
Ryan: i served my mission in germany
Me: Cool
Me: Do you get school credit?
Me: for volunteering?
Ryan: no, but I do get paid a little
Ryan: which is nice
Ryan: They used to have the missionaries do that chat, the full-time missionaries, but then they lost time studying their language while at the MTC, so they quit it
Me: Cool. I also understand that they have a strict schedule. Early to bed... Early to rise...
Ryan: right
Ryan: as a missionary
Ryan: But once you finish your mission, then it's life as usual
Ryan: well, including living commandments and what not
Ryan: and BYU has a standard its students have to keep
Me: Does it bother you that Joseph Smith was actually convicted as a con artist before translating the BOM? Yeah Brandon Davies couldn't keep it eh.
Ryan: I never heard the conviction. I know he went treasure hunting with a few mates and this lady, after a silver mine. What was the conviction for?
Me: Glass looking
Ryan: Right
Ryan: I think it was called "peeping" back then
Ryan: awkwardly enough
Ryan: He was also convicted many times througout his life
Ryan: it would make sense that a person claiming to be a prophet would get some scrutiny and abuse
Ryan: lots of people aren't too keen on that
Me: ttp://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2002_1826_Trial_of_Joseph_Smith.html
Me: What's your take on the Smithsonian's official statement regarding the BOM?
Ryan: What do they say?
Me: http://www.godandscience.org/cults/smithsonian.html
Me: Pretty damning...
Ryan: haha, it always is
Me: STATEMENT REGARDING THE BOOK OF MORMON 1. The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book. 2. The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern, central, and northeastern Asia. Archeological evidence indicates that the ancestors of the present Indians came into the New World--probably over a land bridge known to have existed in the Bering Strait region during the last Ice Age--in a continuing series of small migrations beginning from about 25,000 to 30,000 years ago. 3. Present evidence indicates that the first people to reach this continent from the East were the Norsemen who briefly visited the northeastern part of North America around A.D. 1000 and then settled in Greenland. There is nothing to show that they reached Mexico or Central America. 4. One of the main lines of evidence supporting the scientific finding that contacts with Old World civilizations, if indeed they occurred at all, were of very little significance for the development of American Indian civilizations, is the fact that none of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog) occurred in the New World in pre-Columbian times. American Indians had no wheat, barley, oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, camels before 1492. (Camels and horses were in the Americas, along with the bison, mammoth, and mastodon, but all these animals became extinct around 10,000 B.C. at the time when the early big game hunters spread across the Americas.) SIL-76 1988 -2- 5. Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Native copper was worked in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron. 6. There is a possibility that the spread of cultural traits across the Pacific to Mesoamerica and the northwestern coast of South America began several hundred years before the Christian era. However, any such inter-hemispheric contacts appear to have been the results of accidental voyages originating in eastern and southern Asia. It is by no means certain that even such contacts occurred; certainly there were no contacts with the ancient Egyptians, Hebrews, or other peoples of Western Asian and the Near East. 7. No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archeological remains in Mexico and archeological remains in Egypt. 8. Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines, and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to hare occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland.
Ryan: got it here
Ryan: thanks
Me: Why pray about something that is so contradicted by Science, Linguistics, DNA, and Archaelogy?
Ryan: Are you familiar with logical fallacies?
Me: Yeah that Fair Site is filled with them.
Ryan: there is one called the argument from ignorance
Ryan: saying, something must be false because we don't have any evidence proving it
Ryan: That is the case with the Book of Mormon
Me: THere is plenty of fascinating evidence proving 100% that the BOM is not legit. What are your thoughts on the Vernal Holley map?
Ryan: Oh no, I agree. There are lots of findings that point to the discredit of the Book of Mormon. But no evidence is conclusive on the matter.
Ryan: Science is not 100%
Ryan: I am a science major
Ryan: I plan on devoting my life to science
Ryan: And scienc ties conclusions to facts
Me: You need to have two brains then. One for Science and the other for Religion if you want to survive.
Ryan: I believe science and faith are interwoven, very tightly.
Ryan: And religion has many, many wrong teachings.
Ryan: Traditional christianity, in wanting to separate itself out from science, has caused quite a rift between science and religion
Ryan: While archeology is great, it isn't by any means advanced
Ryan: and we will find many, many more things the longer we search
Me: Vernal Holley Map? http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/holleymaps.htm
Ryan: whether we find evidence to prove the BoM true, we'll see.
Ryan: But whether we do or now, it won't matter much to me.
Ryan: There are many more important evidences to find that ones the confirm the BoM
Ryan: The greatest evidence for the reality of Jesus Christ and the BoM is simply prayer.
Me: Since you are a Science major, you must have taken statistics. The odds of these names and actual places being a coincidence is impossible.
Me: What evidences besides prayer are there? Over a billion Muslims believe that prayer has proven that the Koran is legit.
Ryan: Then God has answered their prayers.
Me: Cool,
Me: So the Mormon Church no longer believe that the LDS church is the only true church on the earth and that all others are wrong?
Ryan: Oh, I didn't say that :)
Ryan: Prayer is a very personal thing, between an individual and God. Who am I to say God hasn't answered their prayers?
Me: That's right, "Cause God Loves Mormons and he wants some more.."
Ryan: God loves all.
Me: Back to Holley's map please. Your legitimate thoughts?
Ryan: Do any other those names exist today?
Ryan: of those*
Ryan: it is a very easy thing to manipulate.
Me: Most do.
Me: Why would Jews, born in Jerusalem, that have never been to Egypt, write in "reformed" Egyptian." It's like you being from Utah moving to Europe and writing in Reformed Spanish.
Ryan: You see, this is why you should read the Book of Mormon! :)
Ryan: So, who are you really Preston?
Ryan: You know way too much 'good stuff' to have just overheard a conversation at the gym
Me: I've read it before.
Me: Honestly, I'm freaked out and fascinated by the whole religion.
Ryan: So what is your ideal outcome from our conversation tonight?
Me: Greater light and knowledge from the lord's anointed.
Me: :)
Ryan: Yes, you would know all about that :)
Ryan: You left the church, didn't you?
Ryan: And I didn't mean that condescendingly
Ryan: You seem to have convinced yourself many fold, that it just can't be true.
Me: The church taught me a lot about integrity, and standing up for what is right.
Me: It all started with a Bishop covered up for a nasty paedofile that attempted to rape a 3 year old.
Ryan: Yikes.
Me: I was disgusted that he silenced the parents and gave the prick a higher calling.
Ryan: That is very disgusting to hear.
Me: I suffered a psychosomatic disorder creating me to vomit anytime I was near an LDS church.
Ryan: wow.
Me: I began to research everything I could about the history of the church, on my Sundays off and it all blew my freaking mind.
Me: I wanted to know how that could happen and then I found out about Joseph Smith and the teenagers, coverups. MMM. Steven Bennet abortions, Book of Abraham etc. etc. and the shelf collapsed
Ryan: Right.
Ryan: I mean, there aren't a lot of explanations.
Ryan: But can you really give it all a solid foot to stand on?
Ryan: A lot of it is very much fabricated.
Ryan: Or twisted.
Me: Oh yeah, there are from the original sources. Journal of discourses.
Ryan: Hm.
Me: www.realmormonhistory.com www.mormonthink.com
Ryan: I know there are lots of websites claiming to have "the real mormon history", but I just don't buy it
Ryan: I took a class from a professor on campus, she went through Joseph's history and didn't spare any words
Ryan: She told it like it was, I'm sure a little more rosy than you'd like :)
Ryan: But I felt it was fair
Ryan: He wasn't perfect by any means
Me: My first few years out, I was too conditioned/scared to read anything that was not from original church sources because of possible fabrication.
Ryan: I have a brother and brother-in-law in your shoes right now, too
Ryan: It's tough.
Ryan: For me and for them.
Ryan: and for you too, maybe?
Me: It's tough not being able to attend family member's weddings, simply because you have moved on.
Ryan: I can imagine.
Ryan: Does that affect your relationship with church members?
Ryan: I mean, essentially you are always saying, "I know more, and you're stuck being brainwashed?"
Me: Actually, I don't say that to any of them. Saying and thinking are two different things.
Ryan: Fair enough :)
Me: Initially when I left, it was like WW3.
Me: with my parents
Me: Father said that he has always trusted me and that he "used" to believe that I was 100% honest with him. And told me that he would never trust anything I say ever again.
Ryan: Ah man, I'm really sorry, Preston.
Me: Started to treat me like that too.
Ryan: That's not fair.
Me: Serious wedge in our relationship. The fact that they feel that they will never see me again for eternity and that my stay at home mom is a failure because all of their children have now left the LDS church.
Me: They saw a therapist and the therapist told them that they were in the wrong and to not base our relationship on whether or not we attended the Mormon church or not. Thank heavens. We get along fine now.
Ryan: That's really good to hear.
Me: John Dehlin's site really helped my mom cope.
Ryan: I'll remember to look it up
Ryan: Preston, I have to get off now. I'm really really sorry.
Me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZQJc5SxnVs That's the link
Ryan: Our conversation has been very interesting, though. And I'm sure I'll think about it.
Ryan: ok thanks.
Me: Good night Ryan
Ryan: Good Night, Preston
Ryan: God Bless.
The chat session has ended.

Any thoughts...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 03:34AM by Delightsome White Boy.

Ryan was more intelligent and human than most. 10 more mins and he would have confessed he had issues with a lot of it.

Ryan was a good kid. I thought this was all done at the MTC. Interesting that BYU students are being paid to chat online in the middle of the night.

After 9pm mountain time, they are all RM university students (mostly from BYU) unless you happen to get the sister mishies in Hawaii.

And they go to the MTC to do that chats too!

"Are you familiar with logical fallacies? ... there is one called the argument from ignorance saying, something must be false because we don't have any evidence proving it. That is the case with the Book of Mormon"

There is also no evidence that TBM's head bone is connected to their butt bone, but still many have their head up their ass...

Cool young man. Good chat.

I was like Ryan, yes I've heard much but the BOM is true' that was the one thing that kept me believing. I often gave the same answers I don't know, I don't understand, it sounds fishy, but no matter what the BOM was true... until the day I doubted the book.

D

"Ryan" was pretty cool and way less defensive than most
BUT
I find it hilarious that he automatically assumed this stuff "must be posted somewhere" because there is just no way anyone could ever come to these conclusions on their own...

He asks "which sites have you been visiting then?" before any mention had been made of visiting a site, and I'm sure he expected you to say something like "MormonsAreOfTheDevil.com" and then he asks "So what got you interested enough in the first place to go searching through familysearch? Or is all this posted somewhere?" Hey, I thought Mormons were supposed to do geneology work - I thought FamilySearch was bookmarked on all Mo computers!

Too funny when you use their own sources against them!

What the fuck?! Really. I'm sayin' it. The F-word: What the fuck?! Arrogant AND naive.

Wow! What great way to start my morning.

Ryan will be out in a few years hopefully.

Haha. Wow. I am proud. That guy might be joining us on the boards someday because of you.

We should occupy LDS chat sometimes and do something similar. That is a great idea.

not to make light of your illness, but that was awesome. OMG. Perfect timing. I often feel like throwing up when I drive past anything LDS.

The sad thing is that Ryan is supposed to be "the authority" on all things Mormon and he really had nothing tangible or of substance to add. In fact, I really don't think he had heard of any of the really interesting facts and had no defense. Realistically I bet less than 1% of BYU students/missionaries know any of that. Educate the 99%! We are the 1%. Occupy Mission Chat Street!

I'm keeping your dialogue for my library. Very well done.

It was great you had those LDS links readily available. Ryan was pretty tolerant. Credit to him for seeing that you were an exmo but kudos for him by staying on the line and having a real conversation.