I am trying to understand how Mormons explain the difference in the doctrine of grace as compared to the rest of Christianity and yet they claim to be Christians.

Mormons believe in grace after all you can do:
"...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23)

The Bible teaches that grace CANNOT be earned but is given freely:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
"Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

So, aren't Mormons basically arguing with God there by believing that their works can save them? I certainly can see how the boasting comes into play...

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0821443.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_(Christianity)

Calvinists don't agree with Baptists who don't agree with Catholics who don't agree with....

Making people work is the foundation of Mormonism. If Mormons read the Bible and found out that God is really a gracious being and doesn't want us to work for our salvation then what would be left for Mormonism? No one would go to the temple that's for sure!

It's about control

Grace. You don't have to do anything to be saved. You just are. Ah yes, the classic "Christian" interpretation of the concept of grace.

The problem is, there's hardly a Christian alive who really believes you don't have to do anything to get saved, while they go about trying to impose their standards of "work" on everyone else.

Testy much, en passant? lol

There actually is more to it than "not having to do anything". There are other Biblical scriptures that talk about believing in Christ, etc, but I'm not here to defend those. I actually personally believe it's all a bunch of garbage.

Not tryin' to be "lame", just trying to learn how Mopologists attempt to explain this one away. I know why they do it - control, as nlocnil said - but I want to know how they try to weasel around this one. Is this part of the Bible they claim is "incorrect"?

You ask a question, and then you insult someone kind enough to answer?

I'm referring to en passant calling me "lame". That could have been left out entirely and the post would have been fine. I don't really appreciate being judged for trying to think about things... I could go back to the Mo Church if I wanted some of that.

I appreciate those who have responded. It is very interesting to see all these different answers, interpretation, contradictions, etc. Man, religion seems like one mangled mess in general.

AngelCowgirl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Man,
> religion seems like one mangled mess in general.<

We can certainly agree on that.

...and to making the "lame" pre-judgement.

I've been on this board for most of 15 years. There were less than 40 "Stories of Ex-Mormons" when I joined. In that time I've seen many board wars fought about many issues. One issue that repeats itself is the theme about who's a Christian and who's not, and why. (It's repeating itself now.)

Mostly, these salvos are initially fired off by people who think their version of Christianity is better or truer or more valid than Mormons' version of it. They quote scripture and cite "scholarly" references to support their own position in an attempt to diminish the position of Mormons.

When I see these battles being fought it reminds me of
Matthew 7:3. "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?" Not, of course, that I would usually be one to use scripture to make a point, but it seems apt here.

Hey, Mormonism is lame for a long list of reasons you can easily make from spending 10 minutes on this board. But just about every other aspect of dogmatic Christianity is just as lame, and you can't defend or condemn either one using the scripture or tenets of the other.

And now I'll return to my "in passing" board style. Thanks for listening.

Yours,

en passant

If Mormons want to call themselves Christians, fine by me. It's certainly a different flavor of Christianity from the mainstream churches.

What worries me about Mormonism is the strong streak of judgmentalism -- the disfellowshipping, the excommunications, the shunning, the over emphasis on chastity and worthiness, and the intrusive questioning in pursuit of same. In that sense I feel that the Mormon church often misses the spirit of Christianity as it is practiced elsewhere. Is this judgmentalism true of every practicing Mormon? Of course not. But we've read enough accounts on this board to know that it's am all too frequent occurance.

They reply that the good works naturally follow after a person has accepted Jesus as his or her personal savior and been saved by grace, because a change has occurred in that person's heart. Salvation occurs at the moment the person accepts Jesus. I think that's how the argument goes anyway.

Our sermon on Sunday was on this topic, and what you said is what the pastor said.
When we receive God's grace, we want to do all we can to show that grace to those around us. Our works are a visible display of God's grace. Through us, those around us will see God's grace and seek it for themselves. Our works have nothing to do with our salvation. They are to help others see God's grace.

I was raised Catholic and was taught that someone could accept Jesus's saving grace on his/her deathbed and be good to go. Catholics are optimists at heart. lol

The Bible's teaching on "grace" contradicts other Bible teachings. Check all the Bible passages that say we will be judged by our "works". Actually, if you want to find out from the Bible how to gain "salvation," you will get lots of different answers:

Salvation is:

By Faith (belief) only (Luke 7:50, John 3:14-16, 18, 36, 5:24, 6:29, 35, 40, 47, 70, 10:25-28, Acts 13:39, 16:31, Rom 1:16, 3:20-26, Rom 4, 9:32, Gal 2:16, 3:11, 14, Eph 1:13, 2:8-9, 1 Tim 1:16, 2 Tim 3:14-15, 1 Pet 1:9, Heb 10:38-39, and 11:17, where Paul gives as an example Abraham offering Isaac). But mercy can substi- tute for unbelief (1 Tim 1:13).

By Works only (including obedience to commandments): ("do the will" of God, Matt 7:21, "keep the commandments," 19:16-20, Luke 10:36-37, 12:47-48, 19:8-9, John 14:15; also Lev 18:5, Psalms 65:12, 103:17-20). Paul also says works ("law") (Rom 2:5-6, 13, 2 Cor 5:10), and says we must "work out" our own salvation (Php 2:12).

James also says works, giving the example of Abraham offering Isaac (James 2:20-24). James also says "faith without works is dead" (James 2:14-26), and "be doers of the word," which you must also know (so that knowledge is also required; James 1:22-27). Also Ezek 18:1- 22, 30, Rev 20:12-15 ("judged according to their works"), 22:12-14, 2 Pet 1:10, 1 John 2:3-5, Psalms 62:12, Jer 17:10, 2 Tim 3:17, Heb 5:9 (obedience). Paul says charity is more important than faith (1 Cor 13:2, 13). Those who do not help the needy are condemned (Matt 25:34-46).

By Grace only, i.e., it is a "gift" (John 6:44, 65, Isa 43:25, Jer 30:21, Acts 15:11, 22:14, Rom 3:24, 5:15-21 (a "free gift"), 6:23, 9:16, 11:5-6, Eph 2:5-9, 1 Pet 1:10, 2 Tim 1:9, Tit 2:11, 3:5-7).

By confession of sin (Psalms 32:1-5).

By Repentance (Isa 55:6-7, Matt 3:1-6, 4:17, 9:10-13, Luke 13:1-5, Acts 17:30, Rom 6:23, James 4:7-10, 2 Pet 3:9, Rev 3:19-21).

By repentance plus baptism (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:37-38, 22:16).

By Baptism (Matt 3:1-17, 28:19-20, Luke 7:28-30, John 3:5, Acts 10:47-48, 16:25-33, 22:10-16, Gal 3:27, Heb 6:1-2, 1 Pet 3:21).

By Belief and baptism (Mark 16:16).

By repentance, faith, baptism, and laying on of hands (Heb 6:1-2).

By Calling on the Lord's (or Jesus') name (Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Rom 10:13; but Matt 7:21 says "not everyone that saith Lord, Lord shall enter;" also Luke 13:25).

By stating aloud a belief in Jesus and his resurrection (Rom 10:9).

By Enduring to the end (Matt 10:22, 24:13, Mark 13:13).

By Poverty (Matt 19:21-24, Mark 10:21-24, Luke 18:24-25, Luke 19:8-9).

By losing our life for Jesus (Matt 16:25).

By eating Jesus' flesh (John 6:48-58) and/or by being "born again" (John 3:3).

By justice, mercy, humility only (Micah 6:8).

But God decides, regardless of what we do (Matt 20:23, John 6:44, 65, 17:2, 6, 9, Acts 2:39, 47, 4:28, 13:48, Eph 1:4-5, 11, 2:10, Psalms 133:3, 139:16, 1 Thess 5:9, 2 Thess 2:11-14, Pr 16:4, 9, Job 23:14, Joel 2:32, Rom 2:4, 8:29-30, 9:11-18, Cor 12:18, Php 2:13, 2 Tim 1:9, 1 Pet 2:8, 5:10, Rev 17:8).

Moses and the prophets are sufficient for salvation (Luke 16:29-31). It is only through Jesus, and not through the Law of Mose (Acts 4:12, 13:39, which means that all those who died before his time, or who do not hear his gospel, are excluded).

Not many are saved (Luke 13:23-24)

These were different writers with different agendas and different interpretations on what X-tianity meant.

That's why they agree in a few places and contradict each other in others.

They were not written in the same time (and sometimes not even in the same area), and the compilation of the gospels happened much later.

But the actual authors of the gospel would have thrown a fit had their ideas been placed together into one large book.

This also was mentioned in Sunday's sermon. The pastor mentioned that the book of James was for a specific audience, like the epistles are all to a specific audience.

Confuse much?

Just picking one of your quotes...how, for instance, does Mark 16:16 contradict the principle of salvation by grace unless you are suggesting that believing is a "work"?

Of course believing is a work. It's a verb, isn't it?

If one doesn't choose to "believe" then Zombie Jesus won't let that person into his clubhouse, and depending on how you read the bible he will either annihilate you or torture you.

Being saved by grace is about the most immoral thing a person can believe in.

The christian god supposedly knows the future (including his own future) and knew before he ever created us that we would act contrary to the rules that he just made up for no reason. He could have changed the rules, or changed the circumstances, or not created us at all, or simply forgiven us. But he didn't do those things. He did the most illogical thing possible: he cloned himself, sacrificed himself to himself to appease himself, then supposedly whispered contradictory teachings to bronze age and iron age superstitious folk, and made up a new rule that if you happen to gamble on the right holy book you'll get to worship him forever, no matter how evil you are.

Rapists, child molestors, murderers, they can all get into heaven through "grace" by choosing to believe in jesus, while people who lead decent lives and try to be good people will be destroyed or tortured because they didn't bet on the right book.

And the ones who think they've got it right are actually happy that their god is such a douchebag that he would punish his creations for doing exactly what he knew they would do and they get upset when other folks don't mention how great this god is quite enough times on sunday.

They're like slaves who talk about how merciful their slave masters are because they let them sleep at night and eat two meals a day; or kidnap victims who learn to love their kidnappers.

Who cares what parts of the bible talk about grace and which parts talk about works? The point is, are you a good person or not?

You're not a good person for believing. That's not moral.

You're a good person for doing good things. That's moral.

If you really believe deep down that the bible teaches salvation through grace alone, then I have two questions for you:

1. Doesn't your god owe you AT LEAST that much, but probably much more?

2. Why aren't you embarassed to admit that you believe such a thing?

en passant...you base this sweeping statement on what exactly? The whole essence of Christian salvation is that it is a free gift based entirely on God's grace...his favor that we do not deserve. Works are important within the Christian life but they are the fruits of salvation not the process to earn it. An old line: A dog does not bark to become a dog...it barks because it is a dog. The Christian does not do good works to become saved...he/she does good works because they are saved.

I'd love to hear your justification for that.

I think we've been here before. That said, Christianity teaches that you are condemned already through what is termed sin...actions which separate you from a holy God. It isn't a person's not trusting in God, as such, which determines his or her destination... but accepting his forgiveness through Christ which negates the sentence that is already in place and gives pardon. Answer my post any way you wish... reject, sneer, imperiously ridicule, or impugn my intellect...that's okay...but that's how Christianity teaches it.

The morg hangs its hat on the "..after all that you can do.." part. In other words:

"Do all this shit we tell you then you have to ask Jesus and Joe for the "grace" part."

Sad, but true.

Ron

The way I've heard it explained when I was active TBM is that grace is given as a gift to all mankind in the form of the resurrection. Eternal life, or the right to live with God for eternity, is qualified for by your works.

In this sense Mormonism is "universalist". Everyone gets into some form of heaven, except maybe the rather large number of apostles that JS had fallings out with.

Exaltation, OTOH, is being received into the highest degree of the CK. There are additional requirements, mostly in the form of paperwork (endowment, sealing for eternity, etc).

Mormon salvation is equivalent to grace. That may be a rather loopy definition of grace, but as Richard Packham pointed out, the Bible itself is pretty loopy on the ideas (there are many) of grace and works.


"Mormonism promises to give you an invisible pink unicorn, and I have determined based on three cherry-picked verses of the Bible that the invisible unicorn is blue. Neener neener neener, Mormons."

That's what's lame about these discussions.

The point is not to argue for the true interpretation b/c there cannot be one. As an atheist in particular I see the whole discussion as a waste of time, such a waste of time in fact that I would not bother with the discussion at all, not even to mock people who engage in it, except for one small problem: Mormons have abused the f*ck out of me, stolen my family, put many of us here on this board in a position of needing to "recover" in order to regain a semblance of normality in our lives, etc. The list of grievances against Mormons is a long one.

Bob McCue makes the point that the reason many of us exmormons are so p*ss@d off is that we feel that in some sense we have been "cheated" by the LDS church. No small measure of this sense of abuse was enabled no doubt by the LDS church's emphasis on works righteousness.

Because the dominant culture is "Christian" in a sense that is typically withheld from Mormons, much to their consternation, when they enter public debate--as has been rife in a political season with two presidential candidates who happen to be Mormon--the discussion of whether Mormons are "real" Christians or not has been UNDERSTANDABLY a common topic of discussion.

Obviously one of the contested doctrines in this public debate between grace focused Christians and works focused Mormons is that of the primacy of faith or works. The point is not to ultimately decide which one is true. The point is to publicize the Mormon position and to not let them obfuscate their differences from the dominant Christian voting public.

Those of us who have attacked Mormons in these public debates have attacked them along a number of fronts, one of which is the grace/works controversy, where Mormons appear to be very vulnerable: 1) because they are so extremely works focused, 2) because they are shown to be so unfocused on Jesus and therefore NOT as Christian as they would like to claim, and 3) because their extreme works focus does open them to easy charges of organizational abuse, calling for recovery from Mormonism sites that the public is usually ignorant of.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 08:16PM by derrida.

IMO, this is how it seems to me. Mormons feel God has offered to save you, if you work really hard and make the right covenants and are obedient. The grace is in the offer - accepting the grace is in your actions.

Other Christian denominations believe you are given grace freely when you accept Christ and when you realize that, you will be so grateful that you will do good works as a thank you for what you've already been given. You aren't doing good works to qualify for the grace, like in Mormonism. You are doing good works because you love the Savior so much you can't help wanting to do things to show that love.

It's the difference between buying a gift for your child to try to buy his/her love and buying a gift for your child to see his/her face light up with joy when they receive it.

By isolating the "grace" verses in the Bible one can interpret the Bible as saying that "grace" is all that is required to be saved. However there are many other scriptures in the Bible, as RPackham has pointed out, that contradict this interpretation of the Bible.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and Hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works." (Revelation 20: 12-13)

I see it like someone building a computer (works, keeping the commandments). Without electricity (grace) it won't work no matter how good you build it. However you still have to build it. One without the other is insufficient.

Or going on a trip to Hawaii. You can save up all the money you want but without that airline ticket (grace) you aren't getting there. Even if you are given the ticket as a "gift" (grace) you still have to get your butt off the couch, pack your bags, and drive to the airport (works, keeping the commandments).

Or taking a college class. Without the teacher you can't pass the class. And no matter how hard you study you'll never know everything on the subject, however, the teacher will still let you pass the class (grace), as long as you put forth some effort (works, commandments). You can still get some answers wrong and still get an A in the class (grace). However, he won't let you pass if he knows you didn't try.

Mormons like to quote "faith without works is dead". For me grace is a free gift based upon faith. But as we grow and nurture that faith, we develop and become more Christ-like and that prompts us to want to serve others in need (without public recognition). Ever done something for somebody quietly and on Sunday everyone knows about it and congrats you and holds you up as an example? How about the announcements during PH - "who is available all day Saturday to move brother MoneyBucks?" or "who will be attending the Temple this weekend?" or "we would like to announce that brother Blubalz's testicles fell-off, the RS sisters will be taking meals over to him." ---- you get the idea.

The Bible itself talks about how important works are.

God saves by grace. This means he will do whatever He wants.

Mormons, and more so mainstream Xtians, do a lot of praising and thanking god. This implies they don't want to just count on grace, they want to make sure Jesus knows of their devotion.

They are trying to get brownie points with Jesus, IMO. If they really thought Jesus was going to do what He wanted, they wouldn't need to bother with praying, thanking, asking and praising all the time.

Mormons just take the brownie points up a notch. If Jesus is impressed with prayers and songs and praising Him all the time, then he should REALLY be impressed with good deeds.

The more you do, the more the boss likes you and favors you. Many Christians will say they do need to do works (the bible instructs plenty of them) but then they pretend that it doesn't matter. I think Mormons actually make more sense on this topic.

Of course works matter...they just don't figure into salvation as Christians define it.

"Grace" is allowance for imperfection and "works" stands in for perfectionism. I don't know if that stands up under theological examination but it is how I frame the issue for myself. The underlying belief of Mormonism on this issue seems to be that individual humans are perfectible, and that causes all sorts of trouble and pain.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 08:05PM by robertb.

I used to get that feeling of hopelessness when I read the "after all you can do" thing. How much is all I can do? Yeah, that's Mormon works.

It is like the admonition to refrain from "unholy and impure" sex in marriage without giving specifics. It plants a worry with no means of resolution or reassurance. Total mindfuck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 08:50PM by robertb.

All I know is that the Mormons contradict themselves in one sentence:

"We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the principles and ordinances of the Gospel."

The confusion of that sentence is typical of Mormonism. "All mankind may be saved...." Oh, goodie! The Atonement served its purpose, and we are all saved! But wait, the article continues: "by obedience". Oh, there's a catch. Oh, Lordy, what shall we do? We want to be saved. We must obey "the principles and ordinances or the Gospel. What principles and ordinances? Those set forth in The Bible? The Ten Commandments? Christ's teachings? NOT. The principles and ordinances made up by Joseph Smith and written into the Doctrine and Covenants. The same book that says polygamy is commanded by God, and that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, that God requires work for His dead in the Masonic temples, and other bunk. There are other principles and ordinances, as set forth by other prophets, which must be obeyed.
And, what is "The Gospel"? Not the Christian church, formed on the rock of Peter, but the Mormon church, formed on a rock in a hat. "The Gospel" is whatever the hell the 12 geezers, the Mormon manual and the PR firms say it is! This is as far from Christianity as you can get--and this is just one point.

In my Mormon experience, I was never taught the Apostolic or the Niocene Creeds. Instead, I had to memorize Joe Smith's Articles of Faith.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 09:09PM by forestpal.

Brilliant forestpal for your repliey.
I say after all ye can do is surrender your filthy rags of rightousness and enter into christ rightousness and fully accept his grace. OUt of love and gratitude there is nothing to earn or buy our way to heaven, it is obvious we will do good works to seal up our commitment in a personal relationship to christ. For athiests takes faith also to believe in nothing here-after but 6 foot under and pushing up daisies and its commendable those who endure with goodness believing this. I certainly would be more lost without believing in a here-after and not half as good as some of those principled athiests such as my good honest antichrist father who I love dearly...

exlds west aussie.