This is so sad. The roads here in Texas are so narrow that there is no room on the side for bike riders.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52875843-78/elder-trotter-vehicle-bikes.html.csp

That is so sad - I hate to see stuff like this because it's compounded by how seriously unnecessary it was for them to be in that place at that time.

I wasn't aware that Texas was known for narrow roads.

Really, this could have been me years ago.
As Mishies, We road bikes everywhere, even in the severe winter weather, on ice, on snow, along narrow congested roads. DAMN THAT WAS DUMB! We were really stupid for doing it, and guess who set the pattern ! Thanks LDS INC. hope you enjoyed getting your exploitative way in those instances, because its NEVER going to happen again, not with this guy!

Too bad that it was n't Bednar's smarmy ass that was run down, instead !

Donna, TX? WTF are they doing in Donna?! It's a flea-bitten border town with two dogs and a gas station. Dollars to donuts it was some hit-and-run undocumented dude in a truck that hit them.

Ron

Pinning it on an immigrant? Srsly?

Even if it turns out to have been someone w/out documents, the collision didn't happen *because* of someone being Mexican or not having a valid residency permit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 10:25AM by Inverso.

You don't live in Texas do you. 9 times out of 10 if there's a hit-and-run in a border town in Texas, the runner is an undocumented alien. Fact of life. It's not the accident that steers me to the supposition, it's the running part. So, ya, srsly.

Ron

Lived in Texas for 8 years. As a Latino. That's what sensitized me to this sort of thing. Don't mean to pick a fight (sorry), but I have a knee-jerk reaction to the underlying assumption (probably not conscious most of the time) that immigrants present a danger to public safety that exceeds, say the risk presented by good ol' boys cruising down I-35 with open 40s, which was still legal when I lived there.

I'm not picking a fight either. It's just a fact. Accident on the border, "hitter" runs, odds are it's an illegal. Sorry if that offends you.

Ron

And, yep, there are plenty of gringo asshole drivers in Texas. Meaning: hispanics don't have more accidents because they're hispanic. LOL

Ron

..but I know what Ron's talking about. Same shit happens in Yuma, AZ. And the Yuman Latinos are not shy about their opinions on the matter.

I don't consider it a racial thing, I consider it an irresponsible asshole thing.

Unless there were witnesses, who would know? And do people who get hit somehow know the immigration status of fleeing Latinos?

Condolences to their family and friends.

of the van, who turned himself in.

Even worse news though is that one of the missionaries killed was due to go home last week but was able to extend his mission by a month. He should have been home. Awful.

it's the crazy drivers that will scare the crap out of you!

I recently moved to Dallas, and it's incredibly apparant how little attention Texas drivers pay to their surroundings. I guess many here assume their big vehicles allow them right-of-way. Since moving here I've seen many near-accidents, mostly from people who don't realize how large their vehicles are and that no, you can't cram a full-size SUV into a gap only a sub-compact could fit into.

I live about a mile from my workplace, and would love to ride my bicycle to work. The thought of actually doing so terrifies me.

Whoa, stereotype much?

First - roads here are just like roads everywhere else. We got some big 'uns and some little 'uns and everything in between.

Second - Texas drivers don't drive any worse overall than drivers in any other state.

Now, perhaps the real crux of the matter is why the Church is making these guys ride their bikes on the side of a road that may be potentially dangerous. Surely their divine inspiration would let them know that these mishies deserve a car at the very least.

My heart goes out to the families, but they will undoubtedly be celebrating that these young men are now in the CK.

Yo! Ever been to Donna? It's a little burg just outside McAllen, maybe 12,000 folks live there. I'm not sure why they'd have bicycle missionaries there. Most often, the DL's or ZL's who have cars tract those places out. Very strange.

Ron

I stereotype just as much as everyone else. For what it's worth, I hate living here and plan to move elsewhere as soon as I feasibly can.

You said, "Now, perhaps the real crux of the matter is why the Church is making these guys ride their bikes on the side of a road that may be potentially dangerous. Surely their divine inspiration would let them know that these mishies deserve a car at the very least."

Share the road much? It's people like you that make me afraid to ride my bicycle in areas that I should feel perfectly safe to ride my bicycle. Single-purpose-use and bicycle lanes are nice and helpful, but cyclists have just as much right to access the roads as motorists.

Here's some review for you:
http://transport.tamu.edu/bicycles/statelaw.aspx

Notably:
"# A person operating a bicycle on a roadway who is moving slower than the other traffic on the roadway shall ride as near as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway.

However there are exceptions to this law. Under the following conditions the law allows bicyclists to take the full lane of travel when:

1. The person is passing another vehicle moving in the same direction.
2. The person is preparing to turn left at an intersection or onto a private road or driveway.
3. When there are unsafe conditions on the roadway, including fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, pedestrians, animals, or surface hazards that prevents the person from safely riding next to the curb or edge of the roadway.
4. The lane is of substandard width (less than 14 feet in width and not having a designated bicycle lane adjacent to that lane) making if unsafe for a bicycle and a motor vehicle to safely travel side by side."

This means if conditions are unsafe, the cyclist can take up the full lane. It's the motorist who is in the wrong for forcing a cyclist off the road in unsafe conditions.

Bicycles are vehicles and bicyclists are entitled to their share of the road.

Re: Roads in Texas are wider than normal...

Maybe so. It's true that there are crazy drivers, but that is everywhere.

TSCC doesn't consider the dangers.

What is worse is the kids out there walking or riding, in dark clothing, no reflector.

The first Mishies I knew had mentioned to me that they were told they should wear their jackets when riding. I threw a serious fit at the Mission President about that, and later it was.... not suggested anymore.

Those kids were name near invisible wiht their jackets on and the little reflectors they had on the rear.

Not to mention but it's seriously hotter than hell here 75% of the time ( Houston )



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 10:34AM by nomilk.

Yes hotter than hell...I'm in Pearland (near Houston).

You and Ron (Tabula Rasa) both are out that way.

But hey, 15% of the timeit is on hot AS hell.

Yep, I'm in Pearland, Shadow Creek Ranch.

Lol, so am I, Riverside Place, shadow creek ranch. How do you like the constant JWs knocking?

I'm in Eden Cove. Odd you should ask that. LOL My livin' in sin g/f is ex JW and they won't darken the door of a "shunned" ex-JW. :)

Ron

As Nepolian Dinamite would say, LUCKY! Lol, (about the JWs that is).

Make them wear their jackets here, seriously? We had triple digit temps for three months straight this summer! Some days it was 112! Holy crap, that is just sick.

What is the rule about Fast Sunday in a place like this? Do they have to go without water in these kind of temps?

I have never, not once, seen any missionaries in Texas riding bikes with jackets on during hot weather. They have helmets and white shirts, either long sleeved and rolled up or short sleeved. I doubt there is any jacket requirement in Texas during hot weather.

When I was on my mission in the Netherlands, the threshold was 83 degrees. 83 or hotter, no jacket required.

Ron

This was a couple years ago, a new Mission president had just come in. He was on them about not projecting the right image, etc. The thing is they have been groomed to bow their heads and obey instead of ask about what if it's tar melting heat.

I'm sure someone else would have... educated him pretty quick even if I hadn't

Ron's right, even back home (Illinois) I never saw a missionary in a jacket during the summer.

Locally it's been addressed that no one should go without water, but I used to hear some snarky comments from members abuut how it's not a fast if you drink water.

as for the missionaries and jackets, I was walking here in Colorado a day after a 10 inch snow storm and 2 missionaries went by on their bikes. One was on the WIDE walking path I was on (they have nice sidewalks here--plenty of room for both bikes and walkers at the same time). The other missionary was riding on the side of the busy road. The one riding down the road didn't have a jacket of any kind on. At first I wasn't sure he was a missionary until his companion passed me. The temperature had to be in the 30s.

And bad drivers? I thought Utah was bad. Colorado is just as bad if not worse. And they have a lot of illegal hit and runs here, too. I don't know if other states heard about the girl who hit a valet at a bar and killed him. She was on a plane in Phoenix using a false name ready to escape to Mexico when the cops caught up to her. She had no insurance, no valid driver's license--and neither did the members of her family who helped her escape.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 01:10PM by cl2.

and the church has not reported this on lds.org or mormon.org. I'm looking for the church to recognize the sacrafices of these fine young men who were doing what they thought was their duty to God. I am going to ask around at church that we announce this in church and ask the members to keep the families and friends in our prayers. I am crying now and I very rarely cry.

I guess like truth, all news is not useful. I really hope the church reports this.

With all the money that the church has, they could not afford a safe truck for those boys to drive and ride in?

I live in the Mormon Holy Land and there are wealthy people here, perhaps that is why Missionaries here get nice cars and the elders drive nice pick up trucks.

I find it to be so very very sad. It could have been avoided, it could have been prevented.

Two lives snuffed out.

Those TWO young men should have been in college, instead of biking it out on some country road at night. So unnecessary.

I feel so very bad for their families. Having come within a few feet of being splattered by a double decker bus while a missionary this tragedy makes me realize the randomness of it all.

Joe Laban said:
"and the church has not reported this on lds.org or mormon.org."

They don't report news on LDS.org or Mormon.org, they leave this up to their newspaper, Deseret News which does have an article.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705393985/Two-Mormon-missionaries-killed-in-Texas-third-taken-to-hospital.html

are killed in vehicle accidents every day in this country.
I'm surprised, quite honestly, that it's not a major massacre on the roads more often. Driving the roads, freeways, highways, scares the bejebus out of me -- I white knuckle it every time I have to drive in a lot of traffic.

I think it's important to understand that there are no: wouldas, shouldas, couldas, what if's in life. We are all doing what we chose to do, generally, and sometimes people die in the process and as a result of their life choices. That's just how it works.

We all take our lives into our own hands when we use the roads whether on a bike, motorcycle, car, truck, bus, etc. At best we can be careful but others might not be so careful.

These three young men happened to be hit by a van that probably didn't see them. (Just guessing) He did stop, and later turned himself in. (Edit: I see they used helicopters to find them). Now it's up to law enforcement to do the investigation and determine what happened and who was at fault.

My concern with bicycles in the roadway is the number of them that do not stay within their bike lane,ride on the white line, ride double or triple file and cause other motorcycles to swerve to not hit them which forces others to swerve in the other lanes. I see this kind of thing so often, I wonder how they manage not to be hit by vehicles.

My condolences to the families of the young men that were killed. That's just horrible to loose a loved one in a vehicle accident.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 12:30PM by SusieQ#1.

Had these boys been in college rather than on an LDS mission they never would have done anything remotely dangerous and undoubtedly would have lived to a ripe old age, if not forever.

J. Chan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Had these boys been in college rather than on an
> LDS mission they never would have done anything
> remotely dangerous and undoubtedly would have
> lived to a ripe old age, if not forever.


Well, we can't say that. There is no way to know when a person will die. The fact is that accidents happen thousands of times a day everywhere.

The point is, in my view, to be compassionate for the families that have lost a loved one in a terrible accident. That's what we would want, I think.

J. Chan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Had these boys been in college rather than on an
> LDS mission they never would have done anything
> remotely dangerous and undoubtedly would have
> lived to a ripe old age, if not forever.
That is funny. I think about my college days and laugh at that. We did things that were much more dangerous than riding a bike, that is for sure. But, I wasn't a Mormon either. LOL

It is such a cultural imperative within Mormonism for "every worthy male" to go on a mission that I don't consider it's a true choice at all. Multitudes through the generations have felt compelled to go, whether they have a true calling for it or not, and many are deeply unhappy, uncomfortable, ineffective and just marking time on their missions. Many do not baptize anybody or even have any substantive discussions at all. Their entire mission is an unnecessary exercise in endurance.

I think that is a large part of the loss and regret and futility that people feel about Mormon missions. It's different if you choose to go or even if you are there through compulsion but have an aptitude for aspects of it. Otherwise, there are many more pleasant and useful things to do with two years of one's young adult life.

Therefore, to die while out there seems even more tragic, especially to many exmos.

Absolutely, compassion for the families is in order. Not being fans of the missionary program doesn't mean we don't have feelings for fellow humans who have suffered tragedy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 12:49PM by Nightingale.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My concern with bicycles in the roadway is the
> number of them that do not stay within their bike
> lane,ride on the white line, ride double or triple
> file and cause other motorcycles to swerve to not
> hit them which forces others to swerve in the
> other lanes. I see this kind of thing so often, I
> wonder how they manage not to be hit by vehicles.

It's standard for groups to ride in two columns and take up the entire lane; in fact, they are allowed to do that by law in most places if there is no bicycle lane. If there are motorists and motorcyclists swerving to get around them, the motorists are driving recklessly.

Many cyclists ride on the white line when there is no bicycle lane because that is realistically the furthest over they can be. Most roads have a steep drop off on the other side and it can be dangerous to ride there. The gutter is also not the road and it's dangerous to ride in the gutter (broken glass and debris popping a tire). Many places that have bicycle lanes installed them unintelligently and the bicycle lane is often blocked by parked cars, etc.

Yes, people are responsible for their safety whenever and however they take to the road. But don't blame the bicycle or the cyclists when a motorist drives recklessly or irresponsibly and manages to kill someone in the process.

I will leave it up to the investigators to establish why and how the accident occurred.
I am not blaming anyone. We don't know what happened.

While it is legal to ride double file, I rarely see it done safely. Almost always one is on the white line, or at least part of the person or the bike is in the vehicle lane an inch or two. Happens far too often. It's what we often refer to as: " an accident going someplace to happen" especially when we have to swerve to avoid someone unable to ride in a straight line.
Bicyclists are a hazard far too often, in my opinion.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>" an accident going someplace to happen"
> especially when we have to swerve to avoid someone
> unable to ride in a straight line.
> Bicyclists are a hazard far too often, in my
> opinion.

If you have to swerve, you are most likely driving too close to the cyclists in question. California tried (and unfortunately failed by veto) this year to pass a 3-ft minimum passing law for motorists passing cyclists (clarifying the current law which is "reasonable distance"). It would have done a lot to avoid your "swerving" problem.

LDS.org has reported the incident under "Newsroom". They ought to put a story about their lives on the frickin front page. Gordon got it and he was way past being old. These YM died in service. They called it a "Church Statement..." - WTF? Unfortunately it was a pretty generic annoucement. They were pretty late getting it out - must have splaid all over each other trying to word it so as not to negatively impact the "company". They ought to do more than just treating it as a news story. I hope they do more.

Does anyone know how the "company" handles these things in regards to legal liability?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2011 01:11PM by Joe Laban.

What diffrence does it make how soon they get it out? You got somewhere to go? They are probably gathering information now so they can do a proper story on it. Give it some time.

I find exmos generally have got the jump on lds headquarters for news involving their own sheep.

And that makes me laugh.