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Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
About 2 years I first started to look into the church and the scriptures because I was contemplating going on a mission. I found out I didn't believe in it (it wasn't true) and then I kinda forgot about everything. Anyway, I've had nothing but time lately and I'm planning on writing a large formal essay on why I don't believe in the church (or religion). This way I can remember my thoughts of the time and if need be hand it to one of my family members or friends. SO I'm looking primarily for contradictions in the scriptures. Off the top of my head I'm thinking about D&C 132 as it describes polygamy and Jacob 2:27-28
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.)
D&C 132 61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be be glorified.
Ok so lets get to the synopsis of these pieces. Jacob says polygamy is an abomination and a whoredom. This alone contradicts the D&C (although the whole virginity D&C talk isn't addressed in Jacob).If I was to argue with a TBM they would say "Polygamy is an abomination unless the Lord condones it" (30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things (Jacob 2:30). So it looks like during Jo Smith's time the Lord allowed it. BUT the scriptures say they must be VIRGINS and the purpose is for PROCREATION. I'm sure Jo Smith, Brigham Young and other early members married virgins, given that some of these girls were just young teenagers, however they also married widows OR other mens wives. Widows are not virgins, neither are wives. This brings a contradiction. It would appear that these church leaders are not properly practicing Polygamy, and they are in fact practicing an abomination to God (on a side note, Brigham Young said everything he says is doctrine, given that he also said that no prophet could ever lead man astray. A prophet practicing an abomination seems as if he's leading people astray). If I were to bring up the fact that they were not following the scriptures, as in marrying only virgins, a TBM Mormon would argue "men married widows in order to take care of them" an argument which even when I was first taught this in my early teens I have to wonder why the men had to MARRY these women in order to take care of them, I.E. food and shelter). Even if these men were married to widows and did not have sex with them, this is STILL an abomination as the D&C clearly states that the purpose of polygamy is procreation and procreation only. There is no "Recreational polygamy" or "charitable polygamy". In either situation A or B, there are extreme contradictions that tear these scriptures apart.
Help me out with this argument. To me, it is perfectly sound, but I'm not sure, critique it. Please suggest other scriptural flaws and contradictions, I know of some but I am looking for more.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 03:55AM by babyraptorjesus.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.)
D&C 132 61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse aanother, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be be glorified.
Ok so lets get to the synopsis of these pieces. Jacob says polygamy is an abomination and a whoredom. This alone contradicts the D&C (although the whole virginity D&C talk isn't addressed in Jacob).If I was to argue with a TBM they would say "Polygamy is an abomination unless the Lord condones it" (30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things (Jacob 2:30). So it looks like during Jo Smith's time the Lord allowed it. BUT the scriptures say they must be VIRGINS and the purpose is for PROCREATION. I'm sure Jo Smith, Brigham Young and other early members married virgins, given that some of these girls were just young teenagers, however they also married widows OR other mens wives. Widows are not virgins, neither are wives. This brings a contradiction. It would appear that these church leaders are not properly practicing Polygamy, and they are in fact practicing an abomination to God (on a side note, Brigham Young said everything he says is doctrine, given that he also said that no prophet could ever lead man astray. A prophet practicing an abomination seems as if he's leading people astray). If I were to bring up the fact that they were not following the scriptures, as in marrying only virgins, a TBM Mormon would argue "men married widows in order to take care of them" an argument which even when I was first taught this in my early teens I have to wonder why the men had to MARRY these women in order to take care of them, I.E. food and shelter). Even if these men were married to widows and did not have sex with them, this is STILL an abomination as the D&C clearly states that the purpose of polygamy is procreation and procreation only. There is no "Recreational polygamy" or "charitable polygamy". In either situation A or B, there are extreme contradictions that tear these scriptures apart.
Help me out with this argument. To me, it is perfectly sound, but I'm not sure, critique it. Please suggest other scriptural flaws and contradictions, I know of some but I am looking for more.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 03:55AM by babyraptorjesus.
I don't have much to offer in the specific doctrinal issues, but I will offer this:
Remember the fundamental difference between reason and faith. Reason means reaching a conclusion based on evidence and logic. Faith means believing something without, or in spite of, evidence and logic. They are different rule books. That means that you may have the best possible evidence and logic beautifully arranged and articulated, but you can never win an argument with an opponent who will ultimately play the faith card. Someone who has chosen to base his beliefs on faith does not need to consider reason.
I would encourage you to continue your endeavor for your own development, and it is possible that others will consider and value your reasoning. I would just encourage you to remember the difference between faith and reason, and do not be surprised when the faithful do not understand or accept your reasoning. They are simply choosing to operate under a different set of rules and will always fall back on, "well, I can't explain what you have said, but I believe (they will say know) this is true anyway."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 04:12AM by Pista.
Remember the fundamental difference between reason and faith. Reason means reaching a conclusion based on evidence and logic. Faith means believing something without, or in spite of, evidence and logic. They are different rule books. That means that you may have the best possible evidence and logic beautifully arranged and articulated, but you can never win an argument with an opponent who will ultimately play the faith card. Someone who has chosen to base his beliefs on faith does not need to consider reason.
I would encourage you to continue your endeavor for your own development, and it is possible that others will consider and value your reasoning. I would just encourage you to remember the difference between faith and reason, and do not be surprised when the faithful do not understand or accept your reasoning. They are simply choosing to operate under a different set of rules and will always fall back on, "well, I can't explain what you have said, but I believe (they will say know) this is true anyway."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 04:12AM by Pista.
I know what your saying, I'm fully aware. When I told my mom I'm an atheist she said in a ridiculously childish and mocking voice "Oh so you believe we came from monkeys" I then gave her a brief but concise run down on evolution and how it's an extremely valid point. I then asked her if she believed the earth is 6,000 years old when science says its 4 billion, to which she bore her testimony proving that evidence means little when you have a wall of faith behind it.
Anyway, I think I'm gonna make this a long detailed paper, pretty much "The Jo Smith Delusion" and include ways of how faith does not make anything true. Her faith is no different than me making some ridiculous claim, native americans worshipping animal gods, or any other religion. They all say they're the true one, and that the spirit is not a valid proof for anything (an argument which I'm still developing).
Anyway, I think I'm gonna make this a long detailed paper, pretty much "The Jo Smith Delusion" and include ways of how faith does not make anything true. Her faith is no different than me making some ridiculous claim, native americans worshipping animal gods, or any other religion. They all say they're the true one, and that the spirit is not a valid proof for anything (an argument which I'm still developing).
So, the other problem with trying to argue with a Mormon in particular (as opposed to some other theists/Christians) about internal contradictions is that right next to the faith card they have the "ongoing revelation" card. They don't seem to feel the need to be consistent, since god is always changing his mind and past statements may be overturned at any time.
Of course, they don't seem to find any inconsistency with that and the fact that god is supposed to be eternal and perfect, but that will just get you right back to the faith card. It's the perfect circle of insanity.
Of course, they don't seem to find any inconsistency with that and the fact that god is supposed to be eternal and perfect, but that will just get you right back to the faith card. It's the perfect circle of insanity.
yeah thats something I plan to tackle as well. So many arguments can stem from the supposed fact that god never changes, he is eternal. If the church was perfected in it's early stages it should be gods eternal church of truth. It's not. Specifically temple changes.
bumppppppp help a guy out
bubbleboy, thank you kindly. that list is extremely helpful.
Sounds like a great project, though. I'm sure you'll get LOTS of great information here. Just try to avoid beating your head against any walls. ;)
This is the kind of stuff that TBM's aren't supposed to think about, otherwise their brain will begin going nutty like the WOPR computer in 'War Games'; on the other hand, even the computer figured out the fallacy in its program. :-)
OK, sorry, back on subject--mormons are presented with the famous Double Bind with this doctrinal information, which, by definition, is mutually exclusive (contradictory: unable to be both true at the same time.)
OK, sorry, back on subject--mormons are presented with the famous Double Bind with this doctrinal information, which, by definition, is mutually exclusive (contradictory: unable to be both true at the same time.)
So, if you're looking for a very long list of contradictions, Richard Packham has compiled a pretty darn good one:
http://packham.n4m.org/contra.htm
I think the points you bring up are really good, and if you can get anyone to seriously consider it and talk to them long enough, it'll become clear they don't really have a coherent argument. What it usually degrades into, in my experience, is them begging me to try to have faith and sending me things they would consider to be inspirational.
Just remember that even having the discussion in the first place is a victory for you, and all atheists. Getting people to give atheists any kind of respect is a victory, and causing them to have doubts, even if it doesn't bring them out of Mormonism, helps them to be more accepting of people that leave it. So I think it's worth it to write these things, have those arguments (though try not to burn bridges or lose friends while doing it), but don't expect to convince too many people out of the church.
I wish you the best of luck.
http://packham.n4m.org/contra.htm
I think the points you bring up are really good, and if you can get anyone to seriously consider it and talk to them long enough, it'll become clear they don't really have a coherent argument. What it usually degrades into, in my experience, is them begging me to try to have faith and sending me things they would consider to be inspirational.
Just remember that even having the discussion in the first place is a victory for you, and all atheists. Getting people to give atheists any kind of respect is a victory, and causing them to have doubts, even if it doesn't bring them out of Mormonism, helps them to be more accepting of people that leave it. So I think it's worth it to write these things, have those arguments (though try not to burn bridges or lose friends while doing it), but don't expect to convince too many people out of the church.
I wish you the best of luck.
pervert Idiot joe claimed he was seeking a getter understanding of biblical polygamy when he prayed about it.
somehow Joes MORmON answer ended up telling him to break jewish law, that God was going to send an angel to kill Joe if he didnt start collecting wives. WHAT A BS story!
MORmONS SUCK!
what Jewish/torah law REALLy says in total conflict with MORmONISM and PERVERT JOE'S stupid story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpwueXufpL0
an apologistic recounting of PERVERT MORmON JOE'S INSANE claims and attendent BLASPHEMY by a MORmON insider.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmhjgaB2Hi8
isnt it past time for MORmONS to have this jammed down their crap spewing throats hard enough to force them to SHUT UP !
somehow Joes MORmON answer ended up telling him to break jewish law, that God was going to send an angel to kill Joe if he didnt start collecting wives. WHAT A BS story!
MORmONS SUCK!
what Jewish/torah law REALLy says in total conflict with MORmONISM and PERVERT JOE'S stupid story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpwueXufpL0
an apologistic recounting of PERVERT MORmON JOE'S INSANE claims and attendent BLASPHEMY by a MORmON insider.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmhjgaB2Hi8
isnt it past time for MORmONS to have this jammed down their crap spewing throats hard enough to force them to SHUT UP !