I would have called 911 and reported it where Sandusky could not hear the call and then put the call on speaker and confronted him so that he would stop raping the boy while there was a witness on the phone.

I would not have walked out of that building and called my father. Or my boss.

When I first read about the riot at Penn state I thought it was because the students were outraged at what had happened to the boys, but then I read it was because they were mad that Paterno was fired. WTF? What self centered little brats.

http://www.huntingtonnews.net/13183

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/missing-da-was-tied-to-sandusky-case

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/11/ray-gricar-missing-jerry-sandusky-pennsylvania-da_n_1088950.html


I believe that this is bigger and uglier than anyone of us or all of us put together could ever imagine.

Perhaps the asst coach knew that.

I do know from working in schools that I was not allowed to call 911 (Unless there was a shooting) or child protection services on my own, I had signed a confidentially clause and I had to go up the chain of command to report incidents. Which I did, which incidents were never followed through. IF I had gone straight to CPS, I would have been fired, and black listed from every school in the area. The ass't coach knew this and decided to let it rest with the chain of command.

So much politics, so much emotional and mental blackmail.

I used to work for a social service agency. Once we had a police officer come and talk to us about what to do if somebody became violent while in our office (and it DID happen, from time to time).

I raised the question, "If we happen to know because the person is our own case client that he has a repeated history of felony jail time for violent assault, would we be allowed to say that in making a 911 call?"

The cop looked at me like I was out of my mind for asking the question. Then the manager (who was quite a piece of work herself) cut in and said, "Of COURSE we couldn't! That's CONFIDENTIAL information!" Then the cop turned the look of incredulous disbelief to her, rather than on me.

Yep, it's policy. In way too many places, if you report what you know, you can lose your livelihood. It shouldn't come down to losing your job because you did what was right, but all too often, that's reality.

It makes me sad that they need one.

They must also physically try to stop assaults if they know a child is being hurt.

It's cowardly and unprofessional to look the other way or to walk off and expect an administrator to make the call. Any teacher doing this is at risk of losing their Californial teaching credential.

I have given it a lot of thought. I know what I would do now, and have had to respond to a recent situation where child endangerment was in question. (Fortunately, it was unfounded)

But walking into a shower and seeing something like when you believe you are the luckiest person in the world just working there, the shock value must have been intense.

I am willing to allow that he was in shock for 24 hours before he could even express what just happened to him.

Whatever he saw, it had to be mind-blowing. Not sure I can blame him for not doing what we all say we would do with the benefit of hindsight.

I hope any good that comes out of this is the clear message that whether you're the Catholic Church or a world famous football program, when it comes to abusing children CYA is no longer the acceptable response. And I hope TSCC figures this out sooner rather than later.

It would not have mattered what I had signed, that would not have stopped me from doing something to stop the rape of a child while it was happening.

And if I was fired for it, I would have gone public. Penn state would have been the one to take the beating (which is exactly what has happened).

No confidentiality agreement or procedure can override the moral imperative of stoping a rape.

be extremely dangerous given the nature of our legal system. I agree that, in McQueary's case, it appears it was quite clear a crime was in progress and that McQueary should have immediately reported what he saw to the authorities. Should he have physically intervened? It's tempting to say yes, because in hindsight it seems so clear that would have been called for. But that's such a dangerous precedent to set.

Let's pose a slightly different case. Let's say you a summer clerk in am AmLaw 100 law firm. While in the office very late on a weekend, you hear strange noises on your floor. You investigate, and find, in his office, a 56-year-old high-profile partner engaged in what appears to you to be non-consensual sexual intercourse with a female who appears to you to you to be underage. Alarmed, you call the police, but, concerned, also physically intervene. During the ensuing struggle, you injure the partner. When the police arrive, both you and the partner are arrested.

During the investigation, the police determine the following:

(1) Both the partner and the female agree that the sex, while rough, was consensual.

(2) The female is not underage, but rather 25 years old. Moreover, she is the partner's wife.

(3) The partner has experienced physical injuries and possibly a mild heart attack as a result of your intervention. His injuries may prevent him from working for some time.

(4) While sexual interludes in the office are not encouraged, the fact that this partner, who is far and away the firm's highest producer (and also widely regarded to be an exceptionally nice guy both by his partners and employees), sometimes rendezvous with his wife in his office during busy times is common knowledge within the firm.

What's going to happen here? (1) You're going to be immediately terminated from your associateship and not hired by the firm. (2) You have severely damaged your career prospects. (3) You are likely going to be sued, and you have no financial ability to retain a competent attorney to defend you. (4) Depending on the law of the jurisdiction, it is entirely possible that you will be criminally prosecuted for battery, assault or other, similar crimes. And for what? Absolutely nothing.

IMO this is a bullshit response to the question at hand. This is not even remotely what happened at Penn State. Speculate all you want about the above scenario. Your assumption is that there is absolutely no communication from the partner and the person intervening is so stupid that they can't talk or listen either. Good grief, this man witnessed a RAPE of a CHILD - furthermore, it was male on male - hardly comparable to a husband and wife.

for you to try and compare a relationship between adults to that of a 50+ year old man raping a 10 year old boy is stupid. If you see something going on that you think is illegal or immoral, you step in and stop it. I would put the child in this case over saving my own ass any day of the week. What would I have done, I would have beat the shit out of the guy, had the child put his clothes back on, called 911, and waited for them to come to the showers and slap cold steel on the scumbag, and stayed with the child until his parents or social services arrived. I could care less if this would have put me in risk of arrest, you don't stand by, or walk away from abuse going on. Your justification makes me sick.

"for you to try and compare a relationship between adults to that of a 50+ year old man raping a 10 year old boy is stupid. If you see something going on that you think is illegal or immoral, you step in and stop it. I would put the child in this case over saving my own ass any day of the week. What would I have done, I would have beat the shit out of the guy, had the child put his clothes back on, called 911, and waited for them to come to the showers and slap cold steel on the scumbag, and stayed with the child until his parents or social services arrived. I could care less if this would have put me in risk of arrest, you don't stand by, or walk away from abuse going on. Your justification makes me sick."

Dear KC,

THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! I asked my husband what he would have done in that situation- He said, "I would have beat the livin' *@#! out of him and then called 911." And he's an educated white collar kinda guy! (Trust me he would have kicked this creep the curb!) Geez, what kind of society do we live in when it's permissible to look the other way as an offender molests A CHILD!?! Thank you manly men (and women, LOL!) AKA:Grownups; who stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves regardless of the very scary consequences.

It seems to me as though J. Chan's nightmare scenario above has more to do with a misunderstanding and possibly fear of kink then it has to do with the actual child rape scenario at hand.

I can promise right now that anyone with a modicum of training in the BDSM community who is engaged in sexual behavior in a risky situation (the office mentioned) or which might be seen as disturbing(someone engaged in dress imitating a group that can not give consent, some form of violence, someone trussed like a Christmas turkey, etc, etc)will immediately disengage and explain if confronted. More then likely, too, they will be able to provide ID, and most likely signed paperwork explaining the nature of the relationship and it's consensual nature.

Most people involved in some sort of kink are very careful to protect themselves from misunderstandings like the worst case senario described. That sort of situation is fantasy, and nothing like an actual rape. You can tell.

If someone were to barge in, refuse to listen to any explanation or allow them to pull out proof, and proceed to beat up the dominant participant even as the other individual was protesting, they'd have to be an idiot.

Quoth the Raven "Nevermo" Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would not have mattered what I had signed, that
> would not have stopped me from doing something to
> stop the rape of a child while it was happening.
>
>
> And if I was fired for it, I would have gone
> public. Penn state would have been the one to
> take the beating (which is exactly what has
> happened).
>
> No confidentiality agreement or procedure can
> override the moral imperative of stoping a rape.

Same here. I have a habit of speaking up and calling foul even if there is substantial fallout. I think that is the case with many on this board. People without that tendency would probably not be on this board. We call it the way we see it and let the chips fall where they may.

I would have yelled at him to get off of the kid, or physically pulled him off of the kid. I would have ordered him out of the locker room. I would have kindly told the child to wait in the locker room, that he was in no way at fault, and that responsible adults would be along to help him shortly. I would have called CPS and the police. Then I would have told Paterno.

Where I live, teachers are trained to call CPS based on even the slightest suspicion of abuse. We can ask to have a principal sit with us for moral support as we make the call, but I don't know of a principal who wouldn't back us up on that 100%.

Sandusky's charity should have had yearly training sessions on child sex abuse. All of the adults working with the charity should have had background checks. Penn state should also have yearly training sessions since I'm sure that at least some of the university's students are under-aged.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 01:18PM by summer.

I think any prudent person in the community should do the same.

Yank the bastard off the child, beat the shit out of him, and call 911. It would be worth being charged with assault and battery.

Just call the police.

If it's a CHILD, you bet your ass I would. I know some people look younger than they really are, but it's not difficult to tell the difference between a 11 year old and a 17 year old, ok?
Your scenerio above describes a different kind of situation.

he saw based on my reading of the Grand Jury testimony. If I was McQueary, based on my reading, would I have inquired what the hell was going on? Of course. Would I have called the police? Yes. But it's irresponsible to suggest that people should become involved in a physical altercation because they think a crime is being committed. We live in a society that celebrates violence and altercation in popular culture, but which also punishes violence and altercation very harshly through its legal system. The common law cuts would-be do-gooders very few breaks. In fact, at common law someone who engages in physical intervention may well be civilly and criminally liable EVEN IF they are breaking up a crime-in-progress unless very specific criteria are met.

I'm not a violent person under normal circumstances, however, I would physically intervene and call the police if I saw a child being raped. If I had to pay the piper for punching out a child rapist, so be it.

I get what you're saying about how society glorifies and celebrates violence, and I am not someone who thinks violence normaly solves problems. In an situation where I had to protect a child from further abuse, I would do what I felt was necessary. I also sincerely hope I never have to be in a this kind of a situation.

to defend yourself or OTHERS is perfectly valid and permissible in the USA.
Maybe you live in England where people have no rights even to defend their own lives.

and its states. Your rights to defend yourself physically are severely limited in most states, and your rights to defend others physically are almost nonexistent except in very clearly defined circumstances. You are potentially exposed to civil liability in any circumstance where you harm or even lay a hand on someone - even if the someone is engaged in committing a crime at the time.

I realize there are times when you have to do what you have to do, consequences be damned. I realize sometimes you have to step in. Hell, I've done it myself. But having personally dealt with the aftermath of a couple of situations where good people ended up with a very raw deal for doing what they sincerely thought was the right thing, I would just urge caution about getting physically involved. Generally speaking, if someone thinks they are witnessing a crime, they should immediately contact the authorities. If at all possible, they should avoid physical altercation.

My son-in-law has been arrested several times in attempts to protect his mentally handicapped brother, who is 23.

In the end he paid fines and had to go to anger management classes.

I also had a massage therapist who in defending herself from her husband hit him with a small child's chair. They both went to jail.

So I see your point.

mandated reporter, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandated_reporter , I would have reported it. If I were a witness to it, I would have intervened. That's my primary/secondary ed training....

several times. He told me it would be "taken care of" by the priesthood and not to worry.

Silly me, I thought they would call the police since he was soliciting someone to participate in abuse (me).

Instead he was promoted to the Melchisedek priesthood, married two other women and 14 more children were subjected to his fatherhood.

To my great surprise one day I received a phone call from his fourth wife asking me to support her in court. Seems she had found my testimony online when I petitioned the court to make him have supervised visitation (granted). She wanted to keep him away from their little daughter (age 2) since he seemed to have a preoccupation with her genitals.


Anagrammy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 08:38PM by Susan I/S.

You know what?

I Have called police (bypassing university police and my boss, when neither acted when they should have). I nearly lost my job at a major midwestern university.

I could have cared less about that. I was 23 at the time, and desperately needed it, and the university was paying my way thru school part time at night, and I desperately wanted to stay in school. I had no parents to ask to help me. I lived on my own and had since I was 16 and every piece of clothing I had owned since age 12 came from money I earned, and damn near every piece of food, too.

Some things just aren't right, and when you know that, you act w/o regard to your own well being because you know they are not right, and the only right thing to do is to make that call.

My situation involved something not nearly as terrible as what happened here, obviously, but I can say from that experience I damn sure know I would make that call-plus do a hell of a lot more--if I walked in and saw someone raping a kid.

Because I already did make that call, when I was the only one with something, with everything, to lose.

Sue me now, sue me later. Whatever. If you're a raping kids, and I make a phone call and get you arrested, you can just come on ahead and try and hurt me. That's what legal aid and the media are for. I'll be just fine, thank you.

Even if it all goes wrong, and I lose my job and can't get a decent job in that town again? I'd be able to sleep at night. That kid would be ok. And I'll be just fine, thank you. Just fine.

Withholding evidence can be a crime. Failing to protect a child can also be prosecuted.

Decent prudent people in society do what they can to help vulnerable victims of crime. Not doing so is often a crime in itself.

It's stupid to say that anyone should look the other way when a violent crime is taking place. No one must jump in front of a gun or knife, but they can always seek help and can step in and offer help when they feel it's reasonably safe to do so.

Good grief! I can't believe anyone would advise people to not do a thing to help an endangered child! And worse, necause of social complications or job politics!

Now is the time to think about before some poor child suffers rape or worse!

The questions are: what is required by the law, and why wasn't it followed in the Penn State case? Or was it? And to what degree?

The requirement is to contact authorities which they did, in 1998, however, the attorney, Gricar, (that disappeared in 2005) didn't decide to prosecute.
Why?
Lots of reasons. Not being believed, maligned for coming forward, etc. Being told you didn't see what you saw...etc.
One big one is the scandal. Loss of funds for their building program, etc. This came up at Penn State when scandal could cause a lot of problems.

The easier thing to do is to minimize it to: "horse play" and keep it quiet and tell Sandusky not to bring kids from his youth group to the gym.
They thought that would solve the problem, and save them from a huge scandal.

But the band-aid didn't hold! Sandusky was not going to be stopped. He continued to use boys sexually.
I don't think anyone considered that he would continue to abuse boys.

In many jobs, the employee is a "Mandated Reporter" of suspected abuse of children: sexually, physically, emotionally. They are required to sign a form that they will follow proper procedures if they suspect abuse.
That includes teachers, coaches, day care workers, and on and on.
The process is to report it to the police or CPS in your area. Depending on your company policies, there is a reporting process that is to be followed also. There are consequences for not reporting properly, also.
One of them is termination, which we have seen in the Penn State case.

EDIT: OOPS... I forgot to answer the question. I would follow the procedures in place - report suspected abuse to the police or CPS. Then it's up to them to investigate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 02:50PM by SusieQ#1.

All good questions SusieQ....especially when you said "DID THEY or WAS IT?" So many speak like they know everything. I won't do that. Let the facts come out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 03:59PM by honestone.

In the United States, if you are a big football star; you are allowed to kill your ex-wife and a waiter.

So it's logical to assume that big football stars are allowed to rape young boys.

I can see that it might be difficult to turn in a family member or close friend, but I would do so. As for someone else, I wouldn't even think about it unless I was threatened in some serious way and even then I hope I would have the courage to report it.In that case, I would make sure all my ducks were in row and get police protection.

EASY....I would tell my superior (supervisor) and then tell the university and local police. WE have no control over what our superior does with the info. I could not live with myself if I did not tell police something I saw. And it is all about the person WHO SAW it. What a shame for people who did not see it but did their duty and they get axed!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 03:56PM by honestone.

When I was working for our county mental health department one of the therapists made a CPS report on a prominent family in the community. That resulted in a complaint from the family against the therapist, who was well within her responsibilities, threats of legal action, and a memo from above telling us we were to get approval from our supervisor before submitting a CPS report. None of us, including our supervisor, agreed with policy and said we would not follow it. The policy was then revised to notifying our supervisor whenever we made a CPS report, presumably so county counsel could be notified if it looked like was going to be sticky.

To Paterno's credit, he told the AD and VP. The VP he told was over the campus police. He didn't do enough, but he wasn't trying to cover it up.

As for the students, this happened 12 years ago. They were 6 years old then. I can understand why they are upset over their school being punished for something that happened when they were in elementary school.

Precisely, it was all reported years ago and the police did nothing and the DA went missing.

My sister who was a paraeducator reported a family directly to CPS from her school where she worked, w/o the principal's okay and was fired and was marked as a do not hire in the entire school district. How do we know? An insider in the human resources who was a friend told us. Did she hire a lawyer? No who can afford a lawyer and just because you're right, in the right, you still have to be able to prove it. The crux of the matter is life is not black and white and tied up into neat little packages. Institutions like this know how to cover their arses and know how to bury someone who exposes them.

Does that mean the ass't coach couldn't have done more? That is a question he will have to answer for the rest of his life.

Tell someone in authority immediately. The situation did escalate, because the Father of one of the boys who participated in the abuse was there, and he called me a "lying, sick mother-fucker." He also went crazy because his older son approached him about it too and he decided to "discipline his child for spreading sick mother-fucking lies." Needless to say, we ran off deep into the camp and didn't return for about five hours. During that time, the police had been called to help calm down the angry Father.

When we arrived back at our campsite there were two lawyers telling our scout leaders that the situation bordered on rape and would most likely be considered such. They said they were willing to be quiet about it if our leaders were quiet about it, and there was a mutual agreement between them.

That next morning at assembly, the Scout Master stood before all of us and said "that there was a situation last night and that we were going to move on and pretend it never happened." That there was no need to continue to speak about it or to tell anyone at home.

After going through what I went through by reporting what I saw, I wasn't about to let them sweep it under the rug. My friend and I suffered more than the boys who abused the younger scouts and that was ridiculous to me, we told the truth and were punished for it. When we got back from camp I told my parents, which prompted them to make a few phone calls that didn't really get anywhere. So at the next leadership meeting I brought it up and that got some parents to ask questions; eventually the situation was brought to light and everything was set straight.

I don't regret doing what I did and would do so again.

Probably involved in football programs from age six on, and taught that coaches have the equivalent of "priesthood authority". And yes, at Penn State, football is the equivalent of a religion. The stadium there is gigantic, unbelievably incongruous in a small college town, with acres of parking for luxury motor home tailgating, and a bronze statue of the coach, who has reigned there for almost half a century. Sandusky would have the equivalent status of an LDS apostle for anyone in the program--what would happen if a TBM had stumbled on an apostle in a similar act? It would be the word of a graduate assistant and a traumatized 10 year old against one of the most powerful men around. That's my take on why he called his father for advice before reporting the incident. And considering that even after it *was* reported to the authorities and nothing happens for 10 years I can't help but draw parallels with the Catholic Church scandal, trusted authority figures abusing those who were brought up to respect them, and which was hushed up by both church and secular authorities until the lid finally blew up off the boiling pot. McCreary is due his share of blame, but I want to know who blocked or stonewalled an investigation at the time, and how deep the rot goes.

you're Dorothy living your dream in the Emerald City. And you turn the corner and that is slapping you in the face.

If it takes you 24 hours to process it and react, then I'm going to assume you're human.

of course all the other Catholic Church stuff is another issue entirely.

I've actually been in a situation not unlike this at all. When I was 11 I spent the night at a friend's home. I woke up to the sounds of her older foster brother as he was molesting her. There was just enough moonlight filtering in from the windows to see he had his hands down her pants.

I just kind of reacted, and screamed WHAT ARE YOU DOING???

He jumped away from her and tried to act like I just misunderstood. I knew what bull that was, I freaking heard him and SAW him. Her parents burst in from hearing me yell, I ratted his ass out that very second, and then with my PJ's still on ran out of the house to my dad's house a few blocks away. I woke dad up, and while I was bawling I explained what happened and asked him to call the cops. Then he called the police for me, right that second.

Come to find out, this kid (he was like 17) had been doing this to her for a few months on end. I didn't know much about sexual violations, but I knew in my gut that it wasn't okay, and that I had to tell ANYONE who would listen.

I don't have much sympathy for an adult like Paterno for not reporting when I was able to do the right thing as a stupid kid with no understanding of sexual deviance. If I was able to do it, why not him?

In the first instance, a neighbor in his early twenties and a drug addict purposely clipped my son with is bike when my son was standing on the sidewalk in front of his house. When my son told me, crying, I went to the young man's house, and with a number of adults present, grabbed him by the collar, shoved him against the wall, and promised to put him in the hospital if he ever touched my son again. His parents kicked him out and we didn't see him again.

In the second instance, a neighbor was drunk and became angry because one of my kid's friends made some noise (during the day) while he was sleeping and came into my house, dragged the friend outside and had the kid in a headlock and was trying take the friend into his house. I caught the neighbor, considered beating the hell out of him, but instead I loosened his grip and got the kid loose. The neighbor's wife started beating on the neighbor, and in the meantime the police were called. The boy wasn't hurt, not even very scared given what had happened. The police talked with they guy, and I went over to his house the next day when he was sober, told him what he did was wrong, and gave him my number so he could call if the kids bothered him. He apologized to the friend of my son and got help for his drinking. He turned out to be a good neighbor afterward.

I've also intervened in domestic violence and gotten punched for my trouble (just a glancing blow) and I've called the police in several other cases when I've heard domestic violence. (I figured out the police are equipped to deal with assaults much better than I am.)

This was all years ago. My life is much quieter now, and I'm glad for it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2011 09:54PM by robertb.

We worked at a training company and he was abusing some of the young female trainees. He was having sex with some of them.

I made a remark in answer to a question that one of them posed to me. I thought no more of it until she approached me several days later and asked for a private chat, during which she told me of what had been happening.

I asked her if she would back this up if I reported it, she said she would, so I took her to the boss. She (the boss) was furious. She immediately suspended him and called the police. What he was doing was not rape, but because they were vulnerable due to their age and his age and the position he held over them, he was found guilty.

Would have reported it to the real police and not those campus clowns who respond only to the university hierarchy.Ol Joe deserved everything he got and then some....he allowed this pervert to stick around for more than ten years and had to have some idea this was going on.

In my mind, the right answer is the only answer. If you see a child or an adult being raped the first thing is to stop the rape and then call the cops. If a man and woman are having consensual sex they will both tell you to get lost. If you are afraid of what the courts will do to you, well! what the hell? Just stay home.

I was abused as a child and I react strongly and immediately when I see it. I can't step aside while a child is harmed -- it's just not possible for me.