Besides, their presence has already been proven!

Joseph Smith saw a real, live Nephite in his bedroom one night--when he was in a sleepy state; you know, when that non-dead angel Moroni dude actually appeared to him!!

It's true because Joe said he saw him and, yes, talked to him!!!

Not only that, studies have been done which prove that Joe said that he saw and talked to this never-say-die Moroni and that it changed his life!!!!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2011 10:09PM by steve benson.

As the last breath passes from your body , you hear a voice say "Hi steve what you been up to"

http://www.nderf.org/

Jb

"Why should only 18% of the survivors of cardiac arrest report an NDE?"

Hey Foxe, you're not evading the question are you?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2011 07:16PM by steve benson.

Just Browsing Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> http://www.nderf.org/
>

I clicked on it. It looks like it is a big ad for selling books. Did anyone else see differently? ;)

that's where I always turn for spiritual advice.

It sure beats the lawyers and MBA's who run the Morm . . . oh, wait.

Too bad it changed so many other lives too. Now we have to put all this effort into trying to convince people it was just a dream. Just a really bad dream.

I have stayed out of this one. I a talking with my testimoney glove. It is more intereresting.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2011 07:16PM by steve benson.

I have had personal OBE's and even Steve Benson can not make me think otherwise. He can hate me, but must get in line, but the truth is the truth, science just can not reproduce the experience and evidence just has not been found. Sorry, Steve I could not stay out of this. I know I am now dog shit that I said anything. Whip the flat earth boy, now.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 02:50PM by steve benson.

I think you think you had an OBE.

Steve, have you been smoking dope? Keep up the good work. Jim

It's certainly good entertainment.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2011 09:59PM by steve benson.

I don't get the hate from Steve on this subject. Don't believe any of it? OK, no problemo. Really. You haven't had one, you don't know me, or others in any personal way, so go ahead and disbelieve. It's fine. It doesn't change anything for us.

We're not evangelizing the experience. I don't want to even talk about it, with ANYBODY--especially here!

Grow up for gawd's sake!

When all else fails, bear your testimony and cry persecution.

If you don't want to talk about it, no one is forcing you to.

To quote your words: "Grow up for gawd's sake!"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 02:53PM by steve benson.

I've had several OBEs. As a matter of fact, I'm going through one one right now.

I'll just head to the beer store around beer-thirty and that, as they say, will be that.

Out of Beer Experiences are easily explained. What's the big deal?

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 03:52PM by Timothy.

I have no testimony to bear Steve. The experience is for me only.

I get you don't like Mormonism. Ditto for me. It did you and me some harm in a real sense. What harm have I done to you? What harm has any person who may have experienced something like this done to you? None. So why rag on it? It is placed squarely in the realm of the unprovable, the realm of faith, with zero requirement for you or anybody else to believe in it. We ask NOTHING of you. My advice, and I mean this sincerely, and I'm sorry it has to be done in this semi-public place...get some help. Learn to love again. Let the bad stuff go. I can see it. So can others. You're hurting. You're holding on to stuff that you CAN let go of. You're a talented person. And believe it or not, I like you, from a distance, because I don't know you up close. I wish I did, you might not believe it, but we'd find each other interesting if we could at least respect each other.

Live, love, and learn. There's always opportunities to do all three, every day.

The scientific question, rooted in a search for replication and verification, is:

What are the traceable, observable, testable origins of NDEs/OBEs and how does one account for their generation?

"Hate"?

Get real.

(P.S.--I didn't bring up this topic as it has been lately re-introduced to the board. Richard Foxe did and it has since received a ton of response from a lot of different posters expressing a lot of different perspectives, some of whom have subsequently started their own threads on the subject. Welcome to the arena--and, no, you are not a believer being eaten by lions).



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 03:20PM by steve benson.

Pim von Lommel's book is a good start. I think somebody mentioned it somewhere. I read it. He tries to approach the subject in a scientific manner. There are others. It would be useful to have those interested read that book, FIRST, then have a discussion. Maybe then we can get past the hystrionics and have a grown up conversation on the subject. You'll get more out of people if you at least listen without the intent to ridicule, and yes, that is what you did when this thread started. You can call it the persecution card, or whatever, but it just boils down to arrogance and bad manners. Hey, I've done the same things before, but we gotta keep each other honest. Your best friends are the ones who will tell you when you are terrific and when you are full of shit.

Thanks for tossing yours into the ring.

That said, getting past your potty-mouth hystrionics would also involve you not accusing others of hating you simply because they don't agree with you. (What I did with this thread was to point out the obvious parallels between religious belief in NDEs/OBEs as seen among the Mormon faithful and the same kind of fervor that is witnessed in others with a similarly-inclined supernatural-embracing mindset. That is simply a fact).

You might not like to hear that, but as Ben Franklin said:

"The sting of the reproach is the truth of it."



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 04:05PM by steve benson.

Would you entertain the possibility of remote viewing over OBE. There have been extensive studies by the US government into the this phenomenon over the years that show that their results went far beyond what was expected by chance alone. In one study it was recommended that they focus the experiments on understanding how remote viewing works and how to make it useful, "There is little benefit to continuing experiments designed to offer proof."

This would be a plausible answer to both NDE and OBE,

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=YtQqqFPRDbsC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=remote+viewing+US+government&ots=rdgCqOwvie&sig=Bk3P87aMP9fUPhb14Ev-ZVqXemE#v=onepage&q=remote%20viewing%20US%20government&f=false

He said that the U.S. military isn't using that technique any more but that they should re-adopt it.

Given, at that very least, that Noory's nuts endorse this stuff, I'm not sure just how "plausible" this kind of "methodology" really is.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 04:06PM by steve benson.

I have listened to him a few times, kind of fun when you are on the road and want to stay awake.

I wish I had time to really review all the scientific articles on Remote viewing. It would be interesting to see if those that experience NDE or OBE had the same brain activity as those that experience remote viewing.

http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_10_1_puthoff.pdf?pagewanted=all

Moroni? I thought it was Nephi that appeared. At least that's the way it was before Joseph flip-flopped.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 03:56PM by steve benson.

in the skeptics of the NDEs and the OBEs is a firm resistance to giving in to the same kind of mystical, visionary authority experience that led us all into the cult.

The "demon-haunted world" is forever beating down the gates. I go online and see everywhere the most ridiculous stories and groups referring to hollow earths, reptiles running the world, chupacabras, ghosts, vampires, zombies. This is infinitely more diverting than mastering science and reason. It is also marching back into the Middle Ages.

I don't understand, are you saying that people in the Middle Ages believe reptiles ruled the world?

What the hell is a chupacabra? Are you just making stuff up again?

Do you have something against things that are infinitely diverting? (Sounds pleasant)

I don't know where you hang out when you surf the web, but it sounds like you have a taste for the weird and childish and seem to find it "everywhere" you go.

The web is a big place with plenty to see. Maybe what's needed is a change in surfing habits.

Cheers

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 05:02PM by steve benson.