A nice young, clean cut, returned missionary did the old fashioned thing and asked my permission to marry my daughter. Hell, I couldn't afford the first wedding and now I'll have two to pay for and won't be allowed to participate in either.

I guess it's a good think I already vented my spleen over the first one. There's not a lot of anger left now. Just a lot of hurt.

Stunted

How dare they!

You hafta pay for it all and you can't participate. That SUX!!!!!!!

just exactly How is that?

He says: "now I'll have two to pay for and won't be allowed to participate in either"

And I really DO think that sux!!!

Of course, he could refuse to pay for em, but I bet he's nice and would not do that.

Ouch!

Congrats and sorry. Many of us here have been through it. Feel free to vent.

I guess the church is the obvious target but today it seems too far away. I'd like to hate the kid but I just can't. He's working two jobs, he want's my daughter to finish her degree, treats her very well, she's crazy about him etc. His only fault is his religion and that's only a fault in my eyes so I'm not even going to bring that up.

My daughter has found the dress she wants. She was going to pay for it herself. I asked her if I could buy it and then explained that since I wouldn't be there to witness the event, the dress could be my proxy and would she please think of me just once? She hugged me and understands that I'm hurting over this. She also understands that I'm still her dad and will do what I have to make her happy.

It still sucks.

Stunted

Stunted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My daughter has found the dress she wants. She
> was going to pay for it herself. I asked her if I
> could buy it and then explained that since I
> wouldn't be there to witness the event, the dress
> could be my proxy and would she please think of me
> just once? She hugged me and understands that I'm
> hurting over this. She also understands that I'm
> still her dad and will do what I have to make her
> happy.
>
> It still sucks.
>
> Stunted

Your such a good Dad!!! I hurt for you.

Stunted Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It still sucks.

I'm sorry. :-(

This made me cry a bit. I am so sorry.

Me too.

Made me cry, too. You're a good dad. Situation still sucks dirty socks.

On the plus side, as you presumably haven't discovered the secret of growing money on trees, you have a finite budget. Which means that budget will have to be split two ways instead of just one, but at the end your daughter will be married and you won't have to worry about saving up for her wedding in the future!

I dread facing this with my own children, should they remain in the cult as adults and marry fellow cult members. I have never forgiven myself for what I unwittingly put my ONLY two living immediate family members, my mother and grandmother through, by my naivete and unwitting obedience to marry "in the #%*&#&@ temple" and be surrounded by a bunch of total strangers from my brand new husband's ward. None of my ex's family was in that speshul room either,except his mom. Everybody else was too young/unendowed or "un-worthy". This issue pisses me off with renewed outrage every time I hear about someone going through it. I'm so sorry stunted; I wish I could find words or advice that would help. I plan on having some very point-blank conversations about this issue with my kids long before we face that situation. I think deep down my daughter knows that marrying a "righteous priesthood holder in the temple" is a crock; she's talked about marrying someone of another faith, or of no faith, and never brings up temples or any of the YW crap. I really REALLY want the cult to be publicly shamed on this one, and see it become less and less of an issue as people choose to make their wedding truly a family celebration. I also hope your young adult children gain some wisdom and compassion along the way, Stunted......that's all I can say.

Tell them you'll give them the cost in cash to elope.

Ron

It just doesn't seem to work long term. While I hate the idea of, and will probably refuse to wait at the temple and then join the pictures so everybody can pretend I was part of them, I do want to dance with my daughter at her reception. I'll also want to stand with my son at his. I want to be as welcoming as I can be to the nice kids who are joining our dysfunctional tribe. I'm hoping for workable, rewarding relationships for many years to come. Weddings seem to be a necessary evil at this point.

And who knows, maybe someday it will pay off with grandkids who won't be slaves to a damned cult.

I love the CASH TO ELOPE IDEA!! My heart goes out to you for such a sad and wrongful action based on stupidity and craziness!

I feel for you Stunted, it is absolutely not right that a parent or any family member would be excluded from the wedding on the basis of religion. Other reasons perhaps but just because you don't believe it is just so wrong.

Here is a suggestion for you, a crazy one and you may not dare to do it for here it goes. Drive with your daughter in a limo to the gates of the temple, and take a slow symbolic walk from there to the doors of the temple, hum a classic melody as you walk her (or better yet have someone play it on a violin), give her a kiss and hand her over at the temple to whoever will be escorting her that day. Take pictures from the time the limo arrives all the way to when she is in, just as if it is a real walking down the aisle moment. Make that your important moment. Too bad the groom cannot see her as she arrives or he could be at the doors.

I know it's a crazy thought but the point is do something that will make a great moment for you and her before she gets into the temple. Maybe even just walk around the temple gardens with her. Make sure you take pictures, not posed pictures but normal special moments pictures.

All the best to you,
D

What a great idea, Deconverted!

That is a special wedding moment. You ought to be a professional "outside-the-temple" wedding planner. You could plan ring ceremonies or rose ceremonies for people.

One ring ceremony I went to, the (unworthy)father officially gave the bride away, with a little speech, and the bride and groom each gave a speech and read their favorite poem to each other, as they exchanged rings. It was quite lovely, and 100% more meaningful and personal than the temple ceremony was.

People have posted here about a special rose ceremony they have at the after-temple lunch. The (unworthy) father walks the bride into the room, and presents her with a rose, and gives a speech, and other people can give speeches and toasts, too.

Thanks. I'm not a wedding planner just a convert who has attended non-temple weddings. =) I have also attended civil ceremonies weddings performed at the lds church and over the years they have become more and more dull.

I haven't heard of the rose ceremonies but they sound very nice and like you said meaningful to people. I think Stunted deserves a special moment/ceremony with his daughters.

D

...would shit all over it. The handbook of instructions is very explicit that there should be nothing that competes with the temple schtick. Most of the people that will be involved in the wedding are ultra TBM types. Several bishops stake presidents, temple workers, CES employees etc. This is Utah county after all.

I could make a grand effort to be included but the tsk tsking and snobbish looks of scorn and the eye rolling and the pity filled sighs would totally overwhelm any benefit. Even my daughter would be uncomfortable if I tried to compete against the Mormon machine. Besides, the idea of a ring ceremony just to make me feel good puts me in the position of Lap Dog begging for table scraps. I won't do it. Fuck em.

There will probably be a chance for me to say a few words at a wedding breakfast or at a dinner or something. I'll choose my words carefully and my daughter will know that I will always love her. I'll stay away from anything controversial that might take something away from her event. Like I said before, she knows this will hurt me deeply. Knowing she understands is enough. My wife understands too. They will both be hurting a little as well. That's enough. I don't need to throw a fit so the TBM assholes can Harumph around and fling their dogmatic poo like monkey at the zoo.

It still sucks.

The ring exchange was made up by the mormons is an attempt to appease non-mormon family and to make themselves feel better about their exclusionary, horrible behavior.

My DD had one and it was nice but it did nothing to sooth the pain of being excluded from the earlier ceremony. Mormons seem to think that everyone should love and appreciate the booby prize. Table scraps is right!

I always wished I had been born in SLC to TBM parents, but now I am just grateful I am not. I can't imagine the pressure and shunning where almost everyone in town is mormon, sometimes is hard enough to breath that atmosphere once a week. =)

You say something that is very considerate of you and shows your love for your daughter, you said she would be uncomfortable. It is certainly her day and you sound like a good dad. As for the rest of the ultra TBM shunners and tskers, I'd shun them back. I sometimes get the impression on this board that the exmos/unbelievers in the morridor are way too nice to the shunners and have too much respect for church policies. Maybe it should be that way to keep peace in the family, I just don't know if I could be that kind and considerate, and I am a very kind and considerate person.

Good luck Stunted, I'll send some positive thoughts and good energy your way. Hope you don't let them get to you too much, after all they are the ones mistaken, not you.

D

I am really really sorry.

Some day, they will be so sorry that they got married and didn't have their dad there at their big day.

In the meantime, you are a good guy and great dad.

I am again, sorry.

Parents belong at their children's weddings, damn nasty ugly cult.

Too bad they can't take the longer view and have a civil ceremony for those who don't want to deal with the "temple" cesspool.

Ouch, indeed. Been there done that and it's truly awful...I'm so sorry. It's been nearly 2 years since we suffered thru the same and I'm not gonna lie, it still hurts deeply.

We did a flower exchange afterward - got the idea from someone here - at a nice luncheon for the wedding party following the temple farce. Certainly not a substitute for witnessing our own child's nuptials, but it was something.

A beautiful selection of fresh flowers laid out on a draped table. Guests from bride's side present a stem to the groom, groom's guests present one to bride. Mothers present last, and together tie a ribbon around the joined bouquets. That bouquet was then featured at the reception.

Love the idea of walking your daughter to the temple doors - a beautiful statement.

Like others on this board, I too regret my dogmatic approach nearly 30 years ago with my MIL & FIL.

Recently, while discussing this with my wife, she told me to let it go, but that if either of our daughters were to get married in the temple, I was not to do to them what her parents and I had done to her. In other words, put her in the middle. She told me I would need to get back to church and then attend. I will cross that bridge when I get there.

Why should you pay if you're not even allowed to be there?

still astounds me.

I will NEVER regret that my husband and I offended everyone equally by not inviting anyone to our sealing. I just couldn't bear to exclude my very best friends, non-member and "unworthy" family members (including my own father). I know my husband thought I was crazy at the time, but as he has gotten used to life outside the church, he now understands what a wedding is supposed to be and how painful and unkind it is to exclude loved ones on religious grounds.

I'm so sorry you're in this boat. It can be so painful.

“…whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” (Galatians 6:7)

I am sure it is still painful.

"...TBM assholes can Harumph around and fling their dogmatic poo like monkey at the zoo."

That's exactly what they do! Not only am I picturing this in my mind, but it's what I will envision when I am forced to witness it again.

(They are monkeys flinging their poo. LOL)

Remember, a sealing, kneeling there with her looking at him with a Pillsbury dough boy hat on IS NOT a wedding!!!! Escort her in an antique car to the temple, take photos, then have a civil ceremony right after the dorky pictures in front of that temple door.(that you won't be in). If you can afford it, you could have a beautiful reception at a hotel,with you walking her down the isle, with tables and the guests already there. Have a friend officiate with what Christ said about love. They are not to be "married", they are to exchange vows. Then they are presented as Mr and Mrs...Dinner and dancing to follow.

I wouldn't pay - and I have two daughters. They would have to do a civil I could attend if they wanted me to pay. Thankfully, they are nevermos and hopefully they will stay that way.

and then the following year, she and her husband can get sealed. I cannot imagine doing such a horrifically punitive thing to my wonderful parents. It's disgusting.

Anyone who would tsk tsk should be embarrassed to show such bad manners.

If she really loves you, then she can have a real wedding, sealing later. It's not like she'll get excommunicated for it!

-trying to scrunch my face up into a yoda-like expression to resurrect ol' SWK-

They'd only get to be angels in the afterlife. You know, that's code for "you'll be Ken and Barbie dolls, as in no genitalia, for all eternity".

has a daughter who is about to mary a man in the temple whose parents are not Mormon and who are very upset that they will not be able to see their son get married. The TBM father then decides that the only fair thing to do would be for him to not attend it either, so he waits outside the temple with the other parents.
Not sure how that would go over in real life. the other parents might feel guilty for causing him to miss it too.

and then nephew in Feb. I will be missing both...but these will not be the first weddings I've missed. No one has had the guts yet to ask why but some already know I don't believe so maybe word has gotten round.