So here's the deal. We have an invitation for my 7 year old son to join a nice and well functioning boy scout troop. My MAJOR problem with the organization is the exclusion of gays which absolutely DISGUSTS me. However, we have been in this town for almost 2 1/2 years now and are still very isolated. I'm a stay at home mom, there are no kids close by, and my husband has a private practice. So we don't meet people via the neighborhood or work or church (since we've left the mormons and no longer believe in any religion). Some of his school friends are in this troop and (aside from the bigotry) it would be perfect for him and he's really eager to join.

My gut reaction is this is a chance to teach my son about morals and integrity. This would be a lot easier if he already had a strong support group which he doesn't have, did I mention he doesn't have extended family either - no grandparents, cousins, aunts or uncles that participate in his life with the exception of one.

My husband's gut reaction is to put the best interests of our son ahead of our moral issues with that group. I put that more eloquently than he did, but that was the point he was trying to make. He then proceeded to say that we shop at Wal Mart despite the many ethical problems there (I am only shopping there until we can afford not to.)

I don't think his points are invalid by any means, neither are mine. Do ya'll think I'm being too "intense" about the scouts thing, for lack of a better word. I've shopped around and there really is nothing else out there to replace it with. Nor am I in a position to start up my own organization - not happening.

Please weigh in.

why not lay all the cards on the table and let the person involved make a choice?

I would say let him go. He needs a group of friends to build memories with. He may eventually not want to go. Both of my boys loved it when they were your sons age. By age 12 they had moved on to other interests.

You can have conversations in your family about acceptance and diversity which will help him reason things through gradually as he's ready.

There are very few perfect books, movies, schools, or clubs. Parents always have to supplement whatever children experience.

I wouldn't make a big deal about this with your child until he seems interested or ready for such discussions. It's usually better to look to the child's interests and the topics they bring up and not to try and force adult thinking on them until they show an inclination.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 05:21PM by Cheryl.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 01:22PM by saviorself.

Let him worry about diversity issues when he is old enough to understand them.

blank if gays in your unit would be an issue.

some coastal units could give a crap about what the national policy is. Others remain servile.

Our unit told council and national outright ten years ago that we do not agree with their policy and will not adhere to it.

Today we're one of the strongest units in the area. I'm guessing because we told them to take a hike.

my point is you may find some BSAino unit that is in tune to your beliefs and the 21st Centure, and is just waiting until the day BSA finally pulls the ferret out of its ass.

I would take some of he advice above. Find out what the local scout leaders think, discuss it with your son and let him decide.Let him know how you feel about the policy, but keep in mind that no organization is perfect. I don't agree with the government all the timme either, but I haven't given up my citizenship either.

Look for and independent troop. One not sponsored by a church or a school. It’s a much better experience and more like what Paden Powell, scouting’s founder, envisioned. I’m scoutmaster of an independent troop. I too am bothered by the exclusion of homosexuals but I can’t think of any organization that I agree with 100%. It leads to some spirited campfire discussions but I’ve noticed less homophobia, at least at the local level, than I’ve seen in any LDS troop.

We have at least two openly atheist scouts and one very agnostic SM and we're still very welcoming of them inspite of the national policy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 01:40PM by peregrine.

Independent troop? As in . . . ?

michael Wrote:
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> Independent troop? As in . . . ?


NOT sponsored by a school or church. Our troop is sponsored by a non-profit org that maintains a few campsites and trails in the area.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 01:46PM by peregrine.

where a church chartered troop might want to press religiousy things like achmmmem marments

and schools are crap because they are only interested in providing after school programs for their boys. and when those boys graduate to the next level, they get kicked out of their troop.

so a fraternal organization just interested in chartering a troop because it's good for the community will be a lot less interferring.

On the other hand, our troop is sponsored by my church, and it's the most heathen place you've ever seen. But then my church 15 years ago proclaimed that gays are welcome and do serve at all levels in the church. Including on the troop committee.

Granted he’s only 7 but under no circumstance should you consider an LDS troop once he turns 12 if he isn’t LDS. Church policy is that the Deacon’s Quorum Presidnet is the Senior Patrol Leader and non-members cannot hold leadership positions. Without a leadership position he can’t advance past First Class. Some LDS troops look the other way, I got fired as SM of a LDS troop for looking the other way, but the official position from SLC is that all boy leaders hold the PH.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 01:47PM by peregrine.

Actually, this is not/no longer true. Far be it from me to defend the LDS or BSA, but here is what their manual says on the leadership of the scouts vs the quorum. back in my LDS scouting days, we had a non-lds kid as the team captain without any issues

Youth Leadership
Scouting is part of the deacons, teachers, and priests quorum presidency’s responsibilities. Planning for Scouting activities should be done at presidency meetings and in the Scouting unit leadership meetings.
Sunday quorum meetings should not become Scout planning sessions.
Each Scouting unit should be led by a young man who is nominated by the bishopric and sustained by the quorum members. For Scouting purposes this constitutes an election. This leader is usually the quorum president or an assistant in the priests quorum, but may be another worthy young man, whether a member
of the Church or not. Other young man leaders of the Scouting units are nominated by the quorum presidency, approved by the bishopric, and sustained by the quorum members.
The quorum presidency, with help from their quorum adviser(s), meets to correlate each Scouting activity with other quorum activities. The president presides at and conducts the meeting. If another young man is called to be the youth Scouting leader, the president should invite him to conduct the Scouting portion of the meeting and show support for his leadership. Quorum advisers attend this meeting to provide adult support and direction to those who preside over the meeting.

I'm stuck on a 7 year old being invited to join a BS Troop. He can't do that until he's 12. Tiger Scouts, maybe.

Ron

Tabula Rasa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm stuck on a 7 year old being invited to join a
> BS Troop. He can't do that until he's 12. Tiger
> Scouts, maybe.
>
> Ron
I'm pretty sure that's what she meant.

Then, Tiger Scouts is a whole different ball of wax. It's like making a play date with all the kids wearing day-glow t-shirts.

Ron

Hey, thanks everyone for posting! I guess I got some of the lingo wrong. This would be a Cub Scout troop I guess. I'll give on this one and let him make his own decision to leave when he gets older and can understand the issue. By then he may no longer have an interest in it anyway. I've sent an email and asked some questions about who sponsors the troop and if some in the area have a more liberal feel/approach than others.

Good luck shutting me up though if I hear anything homophobic.

Oh well, I appreciate the perspective and my hubby will appreciate winning our argument.

Thanks RfMers.

They are all part of the BSA organization but the individual groups have a specific name depending on the age (and, in the case of explorers, the emphasis).

Camp Fore USA might be a good alternative. It is co-ed and says it is open to all.

http://www.campfireusa.org/

There may be other groups local to your area. A school counselor may be able to help find an alternative.

Check this out:

http://spiralscouts.org/

Take him to a non-LDS Cub Scout Tigers (1st grade) Wolves (2nd grade). I did not put my son in LDS for Cub Scouts or Boy Scouts. (As his mother, I was the Tiger, Wolf, Bear Leader). LDS scouting is a joke and there are too many pedophiles in the LDS lax system (even in 2 deep coverage). He will get a much better experience in a local pack/troop that has been around a while. Troop 51 in Charlotte, NC (for 52 years) is super and was 3 miles from my house. Believe me, proximity is important because he will be there at least 2x a week for the next 9 years if he goes for Eagle Scout. A real troop won't let you get Eagle unless you are 16 and have been in every position in the troop from scribe to Troop leader. LDS will rubber stamp them with "Super Saturdays" and you will see 12 year olds getting Eagle who don't own a uniform, can't say the scout oath/motto or even use a compass. It's disgusting.

Actually, you inadvertantly make a good point. While many LDS troops water down the program, many non-LDS troops simply make stuff up, like

"A real troop won't let you get Eagle unless you are 16 and have been in every position in the troop from scribe to Troop leader"

The rules are far less rigid, and are outlined below to become an eagle. There are also leadership roles required for Star and Life (10 months total)

While a Life Scout, serve actively for a period of six months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility:

Boy Scout troop. Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, instructor, Webmaster, or Leave No Trace Trainer.
Varsity Scout team. Captain, cocaptain, program manager, squad leader, team secretary, Order of the Arrow team representative, librarian, quartermaster, chaplain aide, instructor, den chief, Webmaster, or Leave No Trace Trainer.
Venturing crew/ship. President, vice president, secretary, treasurer, boatswain, boatswain's mate, yeoman, purser, storekeeper, Webmaster, or Leave No Trace Trainer.

Again, the intent is NOT to defend LDS scouting, but to provide a warning that non-LDS troops can swing the other way, and become scout-nazis.

Talk to parents with kids in the program and make sure it is not too "kooky".

My experience is many non-LDS adult military wannabes join the boy scouts and think it is the freakin' Marines instead of a youth program

One thing is for damn sure, if I am lost in the woods or hurt, I want a "real" Eagle scout who went through the training, proved himself, lives the scout motto, (like my son does), instead of a mamba-pamby LDS slacker whose mama brags"all 3 of my sons have their Eagle" and she doesn't have a clue what that means. If you are involved and either you or your husband or both get involved in the troop/committee, you will know if there are leaders who get his self worth (Nazis/marine mentality) from a VOLUNTEER position. Pullout and go to another troop. The troop is only as strong as the men who give thousands of hours of training/serving. Bottom line, no LDS troop can ever produce the same quality of a young man/leader of a volunteer troop where the boys are there because they want to be, (because the rift raft will get tired of not being "rubber stamped" and drop out). Don't waste your son's time in a worthless/cheap LDS pack/troop. You will be disappointed.

I went to scouts in the church and I had a good time. My son, however, did not do one day of scouting. If we need to do an outdoorsy thing, I can take him. I remember the scoutmaster getting up in church exclaiming that we need to place our sons in scouts and not in after school sports - he claimed it was a better character builder. His sons are the dweebiest, weirdo, next-to-do-a-columbine, geeks I've ever seen. And he wanted my son to hang with that? Bottom line: scouts were OK for me, but it's kind of given way to other activities for kids.

That being the case, I think it's a good experience for boys. If there was a gay parent who wanted to be one of the den leaders, my husband wouldn't have a problem with ignoring the ruling against that, and the other leaders I know wouldn't either. We do not deal with the "faith" requirement in the pack, although we're not supposed to do that either. As an agnostic atheist - I don't believe in any gods, but I'm not saying it's impossible that I'm wrong - I keep my philosophy or lack of superstitions quiet, since by BS rules I'm not supposed to hold the minor position I have; no atheist leaders!

While I am opposed to the antiquated rules prohibiting gay or atheist leaders, I do not let my beliefs interfere with my son's scouting. We do not touch the religion/faith aspect that occasionally crops up in the books. Our position is that we leave that up to the individual families. Religion or lack thereof is personal. I keep in mind that boy scouting was started at a time when compulsory prayer in public schools was the norm, and so far as I know, no one even questioned it.

If both women and men can hold leadership positions, then we would let homosexuals of either gender take part too. Whose business is it? However, sexual predators of either gender are not allowed anywhere near the kids.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2011 07:01PM by serena.

I'm all for gay rights but I would still recommend Boy Scouts. It's not like they are out protesting gays or anything. And its not a regular subject of discussion in scout meetings, if at all. Its just part of their "policies" that they don't allow gay leaders, since its supposedly supposed to be a religious organization.

I still think its a great organization to belong to. I personally enjoyed it as a youth. Of course it depends on the troop. They can vary considerably. You can have your son try it out and see if it works for him.

Don't forget, atheists also aren't allowed in Boy Scouts.

Luckily I got my Eagle before I let go of religion.

My troop growing up had several boys who did not attend a church. Maybe it's a LDS thing, but it's not an official Boy Scouts requirement.

My family moved to a small North Mississippi town where I was the only Mormon child.

There was nothing for me.

Whenever I was invited to a Vacation Bible School or other function by a neighbor girl, my mother's answer was always, "No!" Because I might be somehow infected by that or their belief(s)!

So I was the weird Mormon girl all through school. I had very stunted social skills and was very lonely and unhappy.

Let you child associate with others. That is the only way he will learn to function in this world, because not everyone everywhere is Mormon (Thank God for that!).

I am now a 62 year old woman and I still have 'hard" feelings about my mother's stance on this subject.

By-the-way, she grew up in a large Mormon family (8 children) with a church within walking distance. (And her father was the Bishop) She would constantly sit around and tell me stories about how much fun she had going to church dances, hay rides and parties.

Well, for all her keeping me away from the wrong influences, guess what--I ain't a Mormon!

I was in Scouting my entire childhood (non-LDS troop in the Midwest) and it was a great experience for me. I loved going to summer camp in my early teens - so gr8 to be away from my family an entire week every summer doing things I loved.

The one thing to look for is good leadership. You want an experienced and motivated scoutmaster. Otherwise the meetings are goof-off time and the outings are poorly organized.