Me - It's not terrible, it is what I have chosen and I am happy about it.
Lady - Well, God loves everyone and he still loves you even though you've made the wrong decision. What was it about the church that you couldn't live up to?
Me - There wasn't anything. I just chose to leave because it wasn't for me.
Lady - Are you a conservative or liberal politically?
Me - Moderate.
Lady - We've been studying the Book of Mormon and it prophecies of Columbus and the Constitution, and says that our Constitution is divinely inspired.
Me - You don't want to hear my response.
Lady - Yes, I do.
Me - The Book of Mormon was written after the Constitution was written, so how can it be a prophecy?
Lady - Let's see, well, the Book of Mormon was written in 1830 and the constitution is 17??... ok, that's right.
Lady - But Joseph could never have written this book!
Me - Yes he could and he did.
Me - Oliver Cowdery helped him write it using a book published in 1825 by his minister called View of the Hebrews, a comparison between American Indian culture and Hebrew culture.
Lady - Now you are grasping at straws!
Lady - You just left the church because there is something you couldn't live up to.
Me - No I left because it wasn't for me.
Lady - What were you looking for, what are you looking for?
Me - Nothing, I just wanted out.
Lady - You are just like my grandson.
Me - I hope you can respect your grandson's decision and I also ask you to respect my beliefs as I respect yours. I wouldn't have told you any of this, but you asked.
Lady - I hope you won't be angry and bitter against mormons.
Me - I hope you won't be angry and bitter against your grandson.
Wow that lady sure made a lot of assumptions! Starting with "thats terrible!" and ending with hoping you aren't bitter toward mormons.
I counted 10 assumptions that she made, that had she been speaking to me, I would have had to ask her about. I don't think I could have resisted asking her why she assumed all of the things she did. Even though i know the pre programmed mormon answers.
Only a Mormon would do that. Can you imagine a Church of Christ or a Baptist asking the same sort of questions?
It seems to me that LDS'ers have no idea of how to respect others by NOT asking personal questions of strangers! I can just imagine what she had to say in her next Testimony Meeting.
Maybe, that is what she was looking for, material for her next testimony!
I applaude you in handling her so respectfully and intelligently. TBMs expect us X'ers to be Satan controlled. All fangs and lewd language, spouting hate and contension! When we do not react in the way they think we should, it does not give them the fuel they need to keep their self-righteous fires burning.
The idea that there was something I couldn't live up to...hmmm. How about things that I saw no reason to live up to anymore b/c the church isn't what it claims to be?
Let's assume, just for the sake of it, that one has discovered that the church isn't true. In that case, why would one feel obliged to follow all of its strictures and rules and obligations?
I didn't hear that. What did you (the TBM lady) say?
One of the maddening things about a "religion" that is works based is that it can always throw this, "You couldn't hack it!" charge in your face. But at some point the charge is ridiculous: How much does an organization have a right to ask of its members? Well in the name of almighty God it can ask ANYTHING. But if it doesn't actually represent God, then it is just like any other human group that asks too much and we as individuals have EVERY RIGHT to abandon it.
At the point of abject slavery or of being abused or taken advantage of, one has the right to quit an organization that makes too many demands.
Just b/c there are idiots or fools or poor, deeply indoctrinated people who (are coerced to) buy into the abuse--identify with the abuser--so much that they can't imagine any other way of life, doesn't necessarily mean that those of us who left the abuse and who can imagine other ways to be are the ones who are lacking.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2011 04:10AM by derrida.
She attended her 60 year high school reunion last year. That would make her about 78. Born around the time of WW - 2, but we didn't have a conversation about that.
Oh, forgot to mention, her new husband is a convert, former Bishop, Stake President, and Temple Sealer. Her ex-husband is a good for nothing, made her do all the work, bum. And she loves Troy Aikman but hates one of her step daughters.
my response: Excuse me, ma'am, but we just met. On what basis would you make any assumptions about my behavior or abilities?
her probably response: "We've been taught that those who leave blah blah blah . . . . "
my response: It's typical for churches that have something to hide to try to villify those who leave. It's a control tactic. They make a preemptive strike to discredit them. The JWs and scientologists and the Moonies do the SAME thing. They blame the person who leaves as weak or flawed.
I Couldn't live that low; all the tattling, spying, lying, judging,shunning and racism that was expected of me to be a "good Mormon" was what I couldn't live!
I'm a very frequent Delta flyer who lives in Utah so I have plenty of experience dealing with Mormons on airplanes. One time a Mormon man rebuked me for talking to a family from Georgia who was coming to Utah for skiing, wanted to see some Utah culture, and they claimed to have never had met any Mormons before. Since I served my mission in Georgia we hit it off right away. I told them not to take my word on anything I said but they were very curious to know why I quit Mormonism and they were interested in learning about the history of the pioneers, polygamy, Joseph Smith, and my story on going from being a Book of Mormon believer & salesman for that book in Georgia to a believer that the Book of Mormon is fiction. A man in the row ahead of us got back from the restroom, turned around and testified to them that they should not believe anything I said because I didn't know what I was talking about. They were pretty dumbfounded and the guy looked so foolish. One thing I think they got out of our conversation was my advice to them on how to approach Temple Square. I advised them that if they were thinking about converting to Mormonism they should ask for the long tour and then they'd get a good hour of spiritual preparation for the guides/missionaries inviting them to fill out a referral card so the mishies could come visit them in Georgia and get them assimilated into Mormonism so they can start forking over 10% of their gross income and over 50% of their spare time to Mormonism's demands for chapel cleaning and other duties. If they were looking for some quick history/culture tour then they should let the guides know right up front that they only have 15 minutes for a tour and that they want to see the tabernacle, assembly hall, and the architecture, period. One thing that the Salt Lake airport sorely lacks is a good museum on polygamy. It would be a real hit there as people would certainly love to visit and find out the whats/whys on Mormons and polygamy history.
"I wouldn't have told you any of this, but you asked."
I think that's a good policy when it comes to Mormons on the plane. Although, I might take them up when it comes to bringing a copy of the Book of Mormon on a plane. It might help me sleep!
Wow! Nice way of pointing out that prophesying the past is easy.
I usually avoid conversations with Mormons. I once made the mistake of asking my neighbor in the elevator why he was wearing a BYU t-shirt. He asked me if I'd heard of it and I said, "yeah, I graduated from there." His response floored me, "Why have I never seen you at church?"
My bf was in the elevator with me and he'd never seen anyone get judged on their church attendance simply based on what college they'd gone to, especially by a complete stranger.
blueskyutah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lady - Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? > > Me - Yes, I used to be a mormon. > > Lady - That's terrible! >
And the proper response should have been: "Yes, being a Mormon was terrible."
But you were classy about the whole thing. Good for you.