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Posted by: Unchained ( )
Date: November 20, 2011 01:32PM

It's been more than 6 months since my departure from church. I was ward clerk in my singles ward at the time (I'm in my late 20's). Here is the email I sent to the ward leadership to announce my resignation and the back and forth between me and my Bishop that ensued. The emotions of that era have mostly died off, but I feel the need to share it:

***My Resignation, Day 1***

I'm writing to you to announce my resignation from my callings and the church in general. I know that this most certainly comes as a surprise to you and I apologize if you find it upsetting. I want each of you to know that I have carefully considered my situation and believe that this is the best decision, though I acknowledge that it has not been an easy one. For the record, my reason for leaving is based on my lack of belief in the church and its foundation and not due to a desire to sin or because I have been offended by anyone in the church. I have thoroughly enjoyed my friendships with members of our ward and I hope that my departure does not damage those relationships. I feel the need to explain my decision and in an effort to do so I have written out the core storyline that led me to this decision:

I have always been a member of the church and up until this point have always believed it was true. I have considered myself lucky to be born into the church at this great time in world history, but I have also questioned myself wondering if I would have accepted it had I been born to a non-member family. This I say because for a long time I have had doubts about the church. When I turned 19 I did not feel like could dedicate 2 years to teaching the gospel without a stronger testimony so I delayed serving a mission. At some point shortly after graduating from BYU I came to the conclusion that as a Mormon it was my duty to go. I thought at the time that if the Mormon life was the one I wanted I needed to commit myself fully to it. I then prepared myself accordingly, pushed my doubts to the side and jumped into the mission field. I can say that the mission was a period of growth for me and I do not regret the decision to go. I learned a great deal more about the scriptures and the church than I ever had. Upon returning home I have tried to keep myself dedicated to the church and its teachings. Unfortunately, without the constant positive reinforcement that I found in the mission field I have had my doubts return. In an effort to resolve my doubts I have searched the scriptures and other church resources. I also have had a number of discussions with other members relative to some of these doubts and yet I have not been able to resolve them to my satisfaction. Usually, the best resolution I could come to amounted to nothing more than "wait until the next life and all will be revealed" or "God's ways are not always knowable to man" or "if we had all the answers we wouldn't need to rely on faith". In order to convey my doubts I have made a partial list:

Why, on one hand, is there no archaeological, linguistic, written, DNA-tested, or any other type of evidence to corroborate the claims of the Book of Mormon, and yet there is a wealth of this type of evidence related to other ancient American civilizations (I would note that there is also loads of evidence of this sort relating to the Bible)?

Why does the Book of Mormon reference certain things that did not exist in ancient America (e.g. horses, elephants, wheat, etc)?

Why does the Book of Mormon lack concrete references to a multitude of latter day revelations (e.g. organization of the church, plan of salvation, word of wisdom, temple ordinances/celestial marriage) when it is supposed to contain the fullness of the everlasting gospel?

Why does the Book of Mormon contain so many phrases, quotes, or near quotes from KJV of the New Testament if they were written concurrently on opposite sides of the planet?

Why do none of the more recent prophets perform "Joseph Smith" type revelations ("Thus saith the Lord"), or relate celestial visions, or perform similar acts such as translation?

Why do revealed principles need to be changed or outright abandoned (e.g. the United Order, priesthood to black males, polygamy)?

How could the literal Garden of Eden really be in Jackson County Missouri when every other geographical location mentioned in the Bible is in the Middle East?

How can we believe in a literal creation story that dates back 6000 years when there is undisputed evidence of older life forms like the dinosaurs?

Why is the gospel in its fullness only known to a fraction of a percentage of the billions of people who do and have lived on earth?

Why are we encouraged to bear our testimonies using the words "I know" when for most of us what we really mean is that "I believe"?

Why are we so strongly discouraged from reading works critical of the church? If the church is true then shouldn't it withstand all criticism?

Why are the church lesson manuals, multi-media, and other available materials so vague on church history? For example, I don't know how many times the I've read that Joseph was imprisoned on "trumped up charges" and wondered what that meant. Why not explain what the actual charges were and why they were "trumped up"? To give another example, many of the early church leaders left the church or were excommunicated, but the reasons why are always stated as "pride" or something similar that gives you no incite into what actually happened.

Why do we teach that there is no paid clergy in the church when general authorities, mission presidents, seminary/institute teachers, and some missionaries do in fact receive payment for their service?

How does the temple endowment have anything to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ?

And most importantly: why have I never received a real undeniable witness to the veracity of the Book of Mormon (and thus prove Joseph Smith is a prophet and the church is true), even after reading the book at least a dozen times and praying regularly to know the truth?

Because I was unable to resolve my doubts with only church approved material and prayer, I recently decided to broaden my search and began to look if there were answers to be found anywhere. I felt that Joseph Smith was at the core of all my doubts and if I were to get at the heart of the issue I would need to know more about him. Consider it a blessing or a curse, the Internet is home to a vast vault of information. I was able to dig up first-hand accounts, copies of real documents, and other very credible information relating to church history that for reasons unknown to me are not available through normal church distribution. There is in a fact a wealth of information about Joseph Smith and the restoration of the church contained in his own journals, in early church publications, in the newspapers, and in the writings of his family and associates. With these critical pieces of information I feel like I was finally able to understand the founding of the church. Unfortunately this critical information also lead me to the conclusion that the church and its related teachings were an invention of Joseph Smith. This is not the conclusion I expected or wanted, but it is the only conclusion I could draw from the evidence. I also discovered a host of other issues that I was not expecting or even looking for, but all of it supported the same conclusion. I will not list in this letter anything that I found, if you are interested in doing your own research it isn't hard to find.

I have tried to reject this conclusion, but I cannot. The body of evidence is overwhelming. Coming to terms with what I discovered has been the hardest part of it all. I have been through an indescribable wave of emotions. Put yourself in my shoes for a moment. If you discovered that the church was not true how would you feel? What would you do? The church has always been an integral part of my life, but notwithstanding I feel that I owe it to myself to be honest. For this reason I am writing you this letter. I hope you can understand my reasoning, even if you reject my conclusion.

I wish you all the best. You truly are examples to me of Christ-like service and love.

***Bishop's Response, Day 2***

My young friend – your confession has been a punch in the stomach. Breathtaking and demoralizing at once…but we believe in [you], and though we are saddened by the weightlessness of this announcement, we hope your sincerity will lead you to a higher mode of learning one day. Spiritual matters require the use of spiritual tools; Forged and honed through faith, trust and use. Our logical minds are limited, even a strong one like yours has limits, and the vast amount of internet information cannot balance one clearly delivered revelation from our divine Creator.

You are right about testing the source. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints rests squarely on the shoulders of the boy-prophet, Joseph Smith. The Book of Mormon is his undeniable evidence…he produced it, and put it out for the world to examine. Hard copy – hold it, read it, smell the pages, feel the authors, listen to the collected voices, ponder the doctrine, learn of God. It is the greatest work ever brought to man, or the biggest hoax. There is no middle ground. It is a binary decision. He saw the Father and The Son, and did as they told him, or he did not.

I am responding to you out of love and respect – you deserve an answer, and my never-ending faith in your struggle. The issues you’ve listed are not new, and certainly not deep enough to discard the weighty value and compelling experience of countless spiritual insights and personal revelations from the prophets in the Book of Mormon, but I pray that your heart will be open to change that last, and most compelling, lament. Your own witness is not measurably strong enough to withstand the winds of the world. I didn’t admit that you have none…for I “believe” you have had moments of clarity in the spirit, trust in imperfect testimonies of others, and felt the love of God. It is that incredible love that comes through in every reading for me:
1 Ne – Young Nephi’s trust in an unseen God
2 Ne 2 – so perfect for this discussion
2 Ne 9, 10 – plan of salvation, atonment
2 Ne 25, 31 – mature Nephi’s witness
Jacob – the whole book is gold; different voice
Enos – another voice
Mos 3, 4, King Benjamin!
Mos 15 – Abinadi’s clarion witness
Mos 26- Jesus Christ
Mos 27 – Become new Creatures!
Alma 4 – church members are the problem; not the doctrine
Alma 5, 7, 12 wonderful teachings to change us into divine beings
Alma 26, 29, 30 – conversions of liars, and proof of God
Alma 31-34 – prayer, faith and personal growth
Alma 37-41 – the fall, resurrection and atonement; explained
Alma 42 – Justice and Mercy
Hel 3, 5 – Word of God; rock of Our Redeemer
Hel 12, 14 – Men are free to act; to choose
3 Ne – First person spoken doctrine of The Savior; pricelesss.
Mor 6: 17 – “Oh, ye fair ones”
Mor 9 – doubt not!
Ether 2,3, 4 – Nature of God
Ether 12 – Greatest Faith treatise in scripture
Moroni 6 – purposes of The Church of God
Moroni 7 – YOU judge yourself
Moroni 9, 10 – labor in the spirit; be faithful

A small sample of His love for us, from a wandering mid-eastern family backdrop, The Lord delivers His Father’s plan through His prophets in a way that is memorable for centuries of oral/written history, and preserved with many voices to witness to us in this final dispensation. From Nephi and Jacob to King Benjamin, Abinadi, Alma, Ammon, Amulek, Helaman, Captain Moroni, Samuel, Mormon, the flashback to Ether’s remarkable account of interpersonal revelation…to the record of The Master, himself, and closing with Mormon’s letters and his son’s witness – no man made this record. No mortal thought up this doctrine. No author makes exult in glory of a prophetic declaration, find peaceful gratitude for answers I seek, or weep at the loss of so many souls. It’s power far exceeds questions of place, time, and organization.

Line upon line. Each verification has been small; each one for a specific purpose, each from a Godly prophet who faithfully wrote what he was inspired to write, not knowing why. Not knowing! They wrote in the spirit, without fully knowing the geographic, historic, or mortal applications their lessons would fit. As Nephi confessed 1 Ne 11:17, “I know that He loveth His children, though I do not know the meaning of all things.”

The older I get, the more impressed I am with the intelligence of these pre-electronic, pre-jet, pre-information-age prophets.
I am even more touched by their wisdom, faith, and trust in The God of Israel who trusted them to leave His presence and live in difficult mortal world of challenge to their spiritual survival. It’s the same today.

Just as The Book is so much more than a fragmented history, YOU are so much more than a smart guy. You have talents and tools that haven’t been used yet, and you are certainly worth the few minutes it took to share a piece of my personal love for that which you have temporarily misunderstood.

***Bishop quoting me and responding in the same email as above***

>Why, on one hand, is there no archaeological, linguistic, written, DNA-tested, or any other type of evidence to corroborate the claims of the Book of Mormon, and yet there is a wealth of this type of evidence related to other ancient American civilizations (I would note that there is also loads of evidence of this sort relating to the Bible)?
-Did you skip Nibley?

>Why does the Book of Mormon reference certain things that did not exist in ancient America (e.g. horses, elephants, wheat, etc)?
-Won’t it be great to learn this one day?

>Why does the Book of Mormon lack concrete references to a multitude of latter day revelations (e.g. organization of the church, plan of salvation, word of wisdom, temple ordinances/celestial marriage) when it is supposed to contain the fullness of the everlasting gospel?
-Did you miss 2 Ne, Alma 37- 41?

>Why does the Book of Mormon contain so many phrases, quotes, or near quotes from KJV of the New Testament if they were written concurrently on opposite sides of the planet?
- Revelation

>Why do none of the more recent prophets perform "Joseph Smith" type revelations ("Thus saith the Lord"), or relate celestial visions, or perform similar acts such as translation?
-Church growth IS a miracle!

>Why do revealed principles need to be changed or outright abandoned (e.g. the United Order, priesthood to black males, polygamy)?
-Revelation has always been flexible.

>How could the literal Garden of Eden really be in Jackson County Missouri when every other geographical location mentioned in the Bible is in the Middle East?
-Geography is a slippery slope.

>How can we believe in a literal creation story that dates back 6000 years when there is undisputed evidence of older life forms like the dinosaurs?
-Measuring years is slippery too.

>Why is the gospel in its fullness only known to a fraction of a percentage of the billions of people who do and have lived on earth?
-The Plan of Happiness embraces all; it is being taught to all, but few accept it – they choose themselves to become like their creator or not.

>Why are we encouraged to bear our testimonies using the words "I know" when for most of us what we really mean is that "I believe"?
-At some point, belief and trust become a knowledge – of a thing.

>Why are we so strongly discouraged from reading works critical of the church? If the church is true then shouldn't it withstand all criticism?
-Read them all. Seek truth.

>Why are the church lesson manuals, multi-media, and other available materials so vague on church history? For example, I don't know how many times the I've read that Joseph was imprisoned on "trumped up charges" and wondered what that meant. Why not explain what the actual charges were and why they were "trumped up"? To give another example, many of the early church leaders left the church or were excommunicated, but the reasons why are always stated as "pride" or something similar that gives you no incite into what actually happened.
-The Doctrine saves…not the history, or the opinions.

>Why do we teach that there is no paid clergy in the church when general authorities, mission presidents, seminary/institute teachers, and some missionaries do in fact receive payment for their service?
-Every large organization has a bureaucracy – is this really meaningful?

>How does the temple endowment have anything to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ?
-Covenants.

>And most importantly: why have I never received a real undeniable witness to the veracity of the Book of Mormon (and thus prove Joseph Smith is a prophet and the church is true), even after reading the book at least a dozen times and praying regularly to know the truth?
-Critical reading is a waste of time, but if you’ve missed the substance of the work – see Nibley, and/or my notes above.

***Bishop's Follow-up, Day 30 ***

I shared your resigning email with [the stake president] (since you are Melchizedek, and were a Stake Officer). He’d like to meet with you…will [time and place redacted] work for you?

***My response, Day 31 ***

I'm not particularly interested in meeting with [the stake president]. I don't know him or know what his intentions are in meeting with me. If he would like to discuss the reasons for my resignation he can call me (any night at [time redacted] would be fine). I don't see a meeting being very productive for either of us.

***Bishop's response, Day 31***

I asked him to; because you have engaged the most important decision of your life, and we care about you…his intentions are to offer his experience, intelligence, witness and support to a fine young man in our community. As a father, attorney, former Bishop, Mission President, and now as your Stake President, he offers considerable depth to your quest to know the truth. He has made great sacrifices in his life to know God - if your internet research has been compelling, tell this servant of The Most High why, and benefit from his perspective. It would be a wise step to take – with so much at stake.

***My response, Day 32***

I appreciate your concern. My decision to resign has not been easy, but the decision is final. You may discount the information freely available via the internet, but I cannot. I'm sure, given [the stake president's] credentials, that he can help those who are wavering to remain in the Church. I am not wavering. There are too many facts that would need to be ignored for me to be able to retain a semblance of belief in the Church and in its claim to authority. I do believe that the Church has many good teachings and is full of good people, but I no longer believe it to be "God's One True Church." Allow me to plagiarize another who summarizes the 10 primary reasons I cannot believe:

10. The Book of Abraham turns out to be a common Egyptian funeral text called the Breathing Permit of Horus.
9. Anachronisms and clear plagiarisms in the Book of Mormon.
8. Joseph Smith’s history of claiming to be able to find buried treasure by looking at a rock in a hat, the same method he would later use to “translate” the Book of Mormon.
7. The wholesale stealing of Masonic rites for Joseph’s inspired temple ceremony.
6. Joseph’s practice of sending men on missions and then “marrying” their wives as soon as they had left town; see, for example, the story of Marinda Johnson Hyde.
5. Joseph’s practice of “marrying” teenage girls behind his wife’s back and promising eternal life to parents of teenagers for their consent.
4. Widespread use of church funds to enrich church leaders, from the days of the Kirtland Safety Society to Brigham Young and beyond.
3. The Mountain Meadows Massacre.
2. Racism, sexism, and homophobia.
1. Most of all, the church’s pattern of hiding all of these things. If you grew up Mormon, you were never told any of these things.

This list is not complete, but merely a summary of 10 relevant points. There are many more. The most difficult thing to swallow is the deception of the Church. Why is real Church History buried? The things I found came at me out of nowhere. I was so ignorant. I tried to deny what I found, and rationalize it away, but I could not. Once I took off my rosy glasses and looked at everything I knew and everything I had learned it all finally made sense. My doubts that I had held for so long in my life were suddenly resolved. My mind and heart finally agreed on something. It wasn't the conclusion I wanted, but it was one I couldn't ignore. I have no regrets.

I really do appreciate your concern, but I don't believe that I can find inside the Church what I am looking for in life. I think if an accurate account of Church History were taught openly many, many more would come to same conclusion I have. It may seem nice to pretend that there is some middle ground that allows for folks who do not believe to participate in some meaningful way in the Church, but I don't believe that is the case. It's all or nothing. It's either true or false. There is no middle ground.

I intend to continue to improve myself, and live the most meaningful life I can. I am thankful for the foundation of morals upon which I was raised. And I'm glad to have had so many good experiences as member of the Church. I hold no grudge against the members of our ward or leadership. I wish you all the best.

***Bishop's Response, Day 32***

Would you be surprised that I and most of the leaders I know in the Church have read these claims long before the internet came into being.

They just don't weigh much against the personal spiritual experiences we've had, and the incredible doctrines of Jesus Christ in the Book of Mormon. You are right about one thing: it's TRUE or NOT. No middle ground. Just as Jesus testified...He was The Son of God come to atone for all mankind. He cannot be only a great teacher or prophet - he was either a lunatic our the Messiah. Same with Joseph Smith. He was promised that his name would be had for good and evil throughout the earth...it has.

Of course I see faults in men and organizations - even Ancient Paul and Peter confessed their imperfections...they were men...not Gods.

No other scripture on earth reveals Gods purpose in creation, agency, or atonement, justice/mercy...ordinances, faith and real charity. The mystery of Gods power, His fore knowledge, and most of all : love for us, by giving us these clarifying revelations one last time. If Christ did not do what He said in Gethsemane, AND return in 1820, we have nothing -no reason for life, no reliable source of truth or HOPE.

There are far more ugly stories in the OT to explain away if that is important -but it's not.
The best researched biography of Joseph Smith, by a Yale professor who read all the journals/period newspapers and slanderous claims is Rough Stone Rolling. Even handed, warts and all. Hope you read it.

I expect more from you...in many ways. You are deeper than this gossip level discouragement. Don't quit. But go beyond reports of men...why rely upon a source that can fail?

I also respect your honesty...

***My Response, Day 33***

It would surprise me more to learn that the common membership knows anything about our real history. I, throughout my years of study of church approved resources, was horribly misinformed. In all the hours spent in Sunday school and in seminary, in institute and in priesthood, I never heard the real story.

I believed that the papyri which constituted the Book of Abraham had been destroyed in the great Chicago fire. I always thought that was a real tragedy considering it was the one piece of evidence that could prove JS was truly capable of translation. Imagine my horror when I discovered that the church had been in possession of significant fragments since 1967 and that a proper translation has shown the BoA translation is a complete fraud. This happened in your lifetime, but has been completely buried in mine.

I thought the seer stone was only used on occasion and I had never heard of JS treasure digging past. His well-documented conviction for "glass looking" only a short while before discovering gold plates is at least worth a mention in the manuals, but I never saw it in any. The first I ever heard of the seer stone was reading an out-of-print encyclopedia of Mormonism stashed in one of my missionary apartments. There was a lot I learned from that encyclopedia that I never knew. I couldn't find even the faintest trace of many of those secrets in my comprehensive "missionary library." It's funny that even those books in the approved library, which were specifically geared to help missionaries solve difficult doctrinal issues, were banned from reading during my mission. The only thing I had known before about seer stones is that Hiram Page was chastised for using one, since that was documented in D&C. When I learned that it had been Joseph's primary method for translation I was again shocked.

The first significant connection I made with the masonic rituals came when an investigator of mine showed me a secret handshake of the masons (he knew nothing about the temple at the time). When I recently learned about the true depth of plagiarism and JS's short-lived spell as a mason, I finally began to understand the endowment. I also discovered why my parents always say that the ceremony has changed a lot over the years, and I was grateful to have gone through after 2005. I still choke at the thought that anything in this "most sacred rite" could be changed at all.

I learned about Mountain Meadows while in college, about the time that the church decided to be open about the issue. It was an awful tragedy. It didn't destroy my faith, but I still see stinging irony in the portrayal of Haun's Mill. While both are horrific tragedies, Mountain Meadows was anything but provoked, as there was no Crooked River preceding it.

Polygamy is a whole can of worms. It's definitely a black mark on our history, but it is so rarely discussed. I thought that while JS introduced the doctrine he never practiced it, that it was Brigham Young's grand addition. It is easy to look at polygamists today to understand what an awful repressive practice it is. Which modern polygamist society demonstrates the celestial nature of the practice? I refuse to believe that God ever commanded such a doctrine.

Is homophobia the new racism? Can righteous gays become straight, just like righteous Lamanites can become white? If "revelation" decides that gays really are born gay (and that it isn't a consequence of being unrighteous in the preexistence, cause that would have made them black), will the pre-revelation history be completely erased (like our prop 8 involvement).

This email is getting long so I won't dive into my thoughts on the Kirtland Safety Society anti-Bank-ing Company or tithing or the financial disclosure habits of the Corporation of the President. But does it ever bother you that our ward donated over half a million dollars in tithes and offerings in 2010, but was still considered in the hole for missionary payments and had a measly $8000 for a budget? It would be nice to know where our funds our going.

Since you believe that the spiritual witness is the true source of knowledge and that facts and history demonstrate only the frailty and fallibility of man, I will share my thoughts on the issue. I have yet to encounter a story of a supernatural encounter that can be proved. It seems that any tangible evidence to such an encounter is always lost somewhere in the experience. I have, on the other hand, met scores of people who claim to have spoken with God. They claim with all sincerity that the truth has been made known to them. They have shared stories with me of their experiences. Visions, dreams, whispering voices, celestial visitations, and burning bosoms have all been the basis for the convictions that these people have in their faith. The conundrum is that all these people have received witnesses of conflicting faiths. Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, Jehovah's Witness, Moonist, Muslim, Bandista, Buddist, and Hindu. I have listened to first-hand accounts in each religion. A true latter-day saint knows that all the rest are false. They must be or God is a liar, or every religion is true (does anyone believe that?). In reality, I don't believe I can rely solely on the emotional experiences I have had as a direct communication. Perhaps if I had heard a voice or had a visitation of my own I would feel differently, but I have not.

You are completely right about the OT issues. I don't know how any one can live in the world today and believe in a literal Bible. There is a great deal of magic and superstition throughout all religions. At some point in the future maybe we can be cured of our superstitions. The best I can do is reject my own superstitions. I can chose not to believe in magic. It's a wonderful fairytale, but I prefer the real world. It's amazing that in the era of restored priesthood a latter-day saint would put more trust in the hands of learned doctors to cure them of sickness than in the hands of worthy priesthood holder. I know of none who would rush in times of emergency to their home teachers before they would rush to the hospital. Where is the prophecy? Where is the interpretations and speaking in tongues? Where is the translation? The modern church has lost much of its superstitious roots.

I agree that every religion has its warts, and mormonism is no different. Show me anyone who claims perfection and I'll show you a liar. I continue to investigate the church and its history because I am bound by birth to be forever connected with it. I'll add Rough Stone Rolling to my reading list.

I appreciate your responses, but still do not understand why you believe that leaving the church is some weak-minded position. There is no room for open discussion or dissent in the church, so how am I to truly investigate it from within? To even read an opposing view of one's own history ("gossip level discouragement") is to openly give oneself to Satan (or so I was taught). Of my friends within the church whom I have approached, all have declined to study the serious issues with me. Free thinking and critical analysis are too frightening to consider. It might damage their testimonies as it has mine. Resultantly, this is a path that I have taken alone. It took overwhelming inner strength to free myself from the indoctrination and dogma for long enough to examine my most fundamental beliefs. It took even more strength to leave those beliefs behind me. I am now looking deeper into my own soul than ever before, and I am struggling to redefine my identity. I must separate the beliefs which were handed to me from those that were truly mine. It is at the same time liberating and chaotic, exhilarating and confusing, but at heart I feel empowered. I feel that, for once, my life is my own. I strive for perfection, but I accept my imperfections. I am at peace with myself.

***Bishop's Final Response, Day 34***

Clearly, you are engaged in a spiritual quest. Some things you see are stumbling blocks (as ancient Israel saw), some is 170yr old gossip, while others are vital truths, and your scientific measure seems to eliminate the value of revelation (answers to questions in faith) – the hallmark of The Living Church of God. If there is no revelation, there is no kingdom…I hope the “evolution” of the church, it’s rites, and directions improve every year until The Savior comes again! We are getting more efficient, as we must to reach every nation, kindred, tongue and people + the 12B who have passed. I’ll drop back into this again this weekend.

Pls don’t mistake me – I’m in favor of discovery…knowing, sorting, learning. It IS empowering and does better prepare one for winds of adversity and dissent. Some very well-read and very smart people precede you, ie. Hugh Nibley. If you haven’t read the FARMS materials, you aren’t fully educated. If you haven’t followed his research of Masonic/Temple similarities and cultural echoes to Adamic records, there’s more to consider. When you can learn it all…get perspective to value 2 Ne2 for all it truly means, or STAND with Jacob – not caring about the stupidity of Mountain Meadows (other than sadness) and understand the cultural backdrop of the male-record keeping and Aaronic limits of OT times…you will have great power in faith.

I do not oppose you; I encourage your journey…but take the whole trip. It’s the Baja 1000.

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Posted by: another guy ( )
Date: November 20, 2011 02:24PM

The bishop is a condescending, arrogrant idiot who contradicts himself several times in the same responses. He conveniently ignores and dismisses your concerns (ex: to your question: "Why does the Book of Mormon reference certain things that did not exist in ancient America (e.g. horses, elephants, wheat, etc)?" his response is about the most stupid I've ever heard: " -Won’t it be great to learn this one day?").

If he read his own responses with an 'open mind' he'd resign himself. But his responses also show that he has no principles - no moral compass of his own; he's satisfied to do as he's told, say what he's told, and even acts like he believes what he's told.

You're done with him - good riddance...

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Posted by: 2thdoc ( )
Date: November 20, 2011 02:52PM

Thanks for sharing. As I read your words, I felt as one with you. I easily followed your reasoning and logic and I felt that you expressed yourself beautifully. Then I read the bishop's responses, and my eyes went cross-eyed and my brain started buzzing.

You strike me as a very bright young man with a brilliant future in front of you. You can feel very grateful you have made your discovery at such an early age. I'm in my 50's and regularly get ticked off thinking about the wasted decades running on the LDS hamster wheel.

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Posted by: baura ( )
Date: November 20, 2011 03:08PM

You handled him with kid gloves. That's how I would have responded shortly after I "had my eyes opened."

In my case, however, it wasn't the evidence available on the internet (the internet didn't exist in 1978). In my case it was a clear "spiritual prompting" that told me the Church wasn't true. I realized, of course, that the "spiritual prompting" was at the end of 10 years of trying to believe Mormonism and of putting things "on the shelf" and was my own mind finally willing to face the obvious.

It was after that that I started looking into the history and found out how clear and obvious it was. So in my case both the empirical evidence and the "personal revelation" pointed against the Church. Of course, they don't accept "personal revelation" if it doesn't fit what they want. I find it interesting how they have had to place caveats on their "most sure method of finding truth." You know, the one Warren Jeffs and his followers use--the one the Lafferty's used--the one Brian David Mitchell used.

Anyway, I would have answered a bit more bluntly. I would have answered "Won't it be great to learn one day" with "I have already learned. It's because the Book of Mormon is fictional and has no basis in reality."

To "Did you skip Nibley?" I would have answered, "No, in fact Nibley's dishonest defenses are, to me, an indication of how strong the argument against Mormonism is. Mormons buy Nibley's books and put them on their shelves. Some even read them. I studied them and, more importantly, checked Nibley's sources and arguments. It was not pretty. If you are hanging your argument on Nibley's star, I'm sorry but that doesn't wash with me. I've read Nibley,"

I would have closed with something like, "The more I study the life of Joseph Smith, the more I'm not so sure he didn't get what he deserved at Carthage. If someone were in YOUR neighborhood doing what Joseph Smith did in Nauvoo, you'd want him arrested and put behind bars."

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Posted by: freeman ( )
Date: November 20, 2011 03:39PM

When I read "Geography is a slippery slope... Measuring years is slippery too." I thought I was reading a bad parody.

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Posted by: Brian M ( )
Date: November 20, 2011 04:27PM

I was also a Ward clerk in a singles Ward when my Mormon worldview grew old and died. It's a funny thing how world views can have a life cycle shorter than your own. It was really shocking for me, I hadn't expected it to happen at all--it was traumatizing.

Unlike you, I took the back door route. I was released from my calling and I just shut off all communication with church authority and roles, except for good friends. I never even articulated to them what was going on in my head. Months passed and no one in a church role ever talked to me again.

I could be honest with myself, but I didn't want to deal with the task of explaining myself to people who would likely not validate my path. This avoidance of articulating myself to past mormon friends has kept me enslaved to wondering what they think about me. It has kept me enslaved to actively acknowledge that I don't care what they think about my decisions and point of view. This has been a taxing and unnecessary emotional burden for the last two years.

I think the route you took in the long run will serve you well. I have recently corresponded with my old mission president and it provided significant closure for that experience.

It seems we can still be very attached to the approval of others long after the nature of our relationship shifts to new roles under new conditions.

Acknowledging and defining what these new roles seem to be essential for emotional well-being. You seem to be well on your way at accomplishing this.

I think most of us saw fellow Mormons as people we needed to be unified with in our worldview. This is something we have to completely drop an expectation of.

The only thing I feel I need to have in common with friends who are currently Mormon is unconditional kindness for each other. I am only recently rediscovering how important this is to my well-being. I feel unconditional kindness is one of those principles that has proven the test of time just as much as any true mathematics relationship. I am hoping that by practicing this more that I will increasingly become emotionally free.

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Posted by: peregrine ( )
Date: November 20, 2011 04:33PM

"I am not wavering. There are too many facts that would need to be ignored for me to be able to retain a semblance of belief in the Church and in its claim to authority."

Amen

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Posted by: jalden ( )
Date: November 20, 2011 05:07PM

You have very nicely worded responses! It's been a long time since I've visited this board and I'm glad that I did. It sounds like the bishop is a nice guy and that he is genuinely interested in having you come back. It also sounds like that he is heavily indoctrinated and that he is currently unable to even consider the validity of your position. Congratulations on leaving! It can be a hard road and you will likely lose some friends... but you will be better off in the end.

Anyway... your discussion reminds me a little bit of the relationship I had with my bishop. For the last couple months I would talk to him every week and we would talk about things like this and a couple of times he even gave me things to read. However, the more I read the more I became convinced that my concerns were valid. He was a nice guy and his intentions were nothing but good... but that didn't change the counter-evidence to the claims made in the book of mormon, the fact that there was a complete lack of an honest effort to teach mormons about their own history in seminary and sunday school, and the questionable origins of the doctrine.

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Posted by: Cali SAlly ( )
Date: November 20, 2011 05:39PM

He loves black and white thinking as well, which signals his immature mental processing. Jesus was either crazy or divine. Couldn't it be that the man, Jesus, existed but history has abused his words and intentions to create a god of their own design?
And if science disagrees with his fantasy conclusions of a 6k year old earth then much better to hold fast to fantasy rather than give science any hope of being plausible. Very hard to have a mature interaction with someone so trapped in his own dillusion. Yet that is a pretty common state among those who are wholly TBM.

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