Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Awhile back a RfM poster inquired here, under the heading,"Subject: To Steve Benson -- Testimony of General Authorities," as follows:
"I discovered this site about 5-6 months ago and, as you can guess, have found it and the various links I have followed to be quite injurious to my ever more fragile faith. . . .
"To be able [for Steve] to interview two apostles (especially Apostles Maxwell and Oaks) would be major fantasy for me. You indicated that the testimonies provided by these leaders were weak at best. . . ."
_____
Yup, they were. And since the topic has been raised again, here we go again:
Not only was the "Special Witness" witnessing of the Oaks/Maxwell tag team (which I was oh-so blessed to personally witness) totally unimpressive and off-point, their sacred insider affirmations amounted to nothing more than boilerplate recitations that a Sunday School-aged Mormon kid could have gotten up and rotely repeated in sacrament meeting.
Indeed, the Oaks and Maxwell "Special Witness" testimonial theatrics contained the same kind of milktoast content that I had constantly heard in testimony meetings growing up, as uttered by the crews-in-the-pews worker-bee Mormons.
In short, reflecting later on what these two alleged "Apostles" had shared with me in secret about their supposed "special" testimonial tethers to Jesus, I thought, "Geezus, Dallin and Neal--is that all you've got?"
Their underwhelming testimonies were recited to me in September 1993, when I held private conversations behind the closed Salt Lake City LDS Church office doors with these two "Special Witness for Christ." There I directly asked the both of them the following question:
"What personal spiritual experiences have you had which gave you your testimonies as special witness for Christ?"
In response, Oaks summoned up memories of his days as a college student at the University of Chicago. Back then, he said, he thought he "knew a lot" about the gospel. He admitted, however, that he had "questions about the Church"--although he did not elaborate for me exactly what they might have been.
Oaks said a local LDS Institute teacher helped him work out the answers.
Maxwell hearkened back to his days as a boy, when he said he observed his father give a healing "priesthood blessing" to his sibling, whom Maxwell thought was dead.
This, was the sum total of their answers--answers that I did not need to travel 700 miles to Salt Lake to hear. I could have saved everyone a lot of time and trouble if I had just stayed home, gone to the next fast and testimony meeting at our local ward and listened to regular members bear personal witness to the same kind of experiences.
There was no testimony bearing from these modern-day Peters and Pauls of personal visits, in the Flesh, from the Father or the Son.
There was no telling of any "road to Damascus" story
There was no recounting of angelic visitations.
There was no description of rushing winds or flames of fire.
In short, there was "no there there."
Oh, and this inspirational gem: During these conversations I had with Oaks and Maxwell, Oaks also told me that the basis for his personal testimony about the truthfulness of Mormonism took the form of a warm spiritual witness which he felt in his heart. He told me that there was no evidence proving or disproving the Book of Mormon, then placed his hand over his heart and said, "I get this knot, this warm feeling right here, and that is what I go on." Oaks added that he had a conviction that the Book of Mormon was "true." He said that feeling of truthfulness came from a "personal witness."
He didn't mention anything about a special visit from Jesus.
So, there you have it: The Apostles "Special Witness" testimonies consist of warm fuzzies, combined with experiences they had while in college institute or as kids watching their dad give family blessings.
Now, quit bothering God's Guys with such pesky, intemperate questions, bow your head and say yes, while at the same time turning in a full tithing envelope, thank you very much. As that performing huckster carnival barker W.C. Fields said to a particular skeptic, "Go away, kid. Ya bother me":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MZWq14uD-A
Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2010 09:48PM by steve benson.
"I discovered this site about 5-6 months ago and, as you can guess, have found it and the various links I have followed to be quite injurious to my ever more fragile faith. . . .
"To be able [for Steve] to interview two apostles (especially Apostles Maxwell and Oaks) would be major fantasy for me. You indicated that the testimonies provided by these leaders were weak at best. . . ."
_____
Yup, they were. And since the topic has been raised again, here we go again:
Not only was the "Special Witness" witnessing of the Oaks/Maxwell tag team (which I was oh-so blessed to personally witness) totally unimpressive and off-point, their sacred insider affirmations amounted to nothing more than boilerplate recitations that a Sunday School-aged Mormon kid could have gotten up and rotely repeated in sacrament meeting.
Indeed, the Oaks and Maxwell "Special Witness" testimonial theatrics contained the same kind of milktoast content that I had constantly heard in testimony meetings growing up, as uttered by the crews-in-the-pews worker-bee Mormons.
In short, reflecting later on what these two alleged "Apostles" had shared with me in secret about their supposed "special" testimonial tethers to Jesus, I thought, "Geezus, Dallin and Neal--is that all you've got?"
Their underwhelming testimonies were recited to me in September 1993, when I held private conversations behind the closed Salt Lake City LDS Church office doors with these two "Special Witness for Christ." There I directly asked the both of them the following question:
"What personal spiritual experiences have you had which gave you your testimonies as special witness for Christ?"
In response, Oaks summoned up memories of his days as a college student at the University of Chicago. Back then, he said, he thought he "knew a lot" about the gospel. He admitted, however, that he had "questions about the Church"--although he did not elaborate for me exactly what they might have been.
Oaks said a local LDS Institute teacher helped him work out the answers.
Maxwell hearkened back to his days as a boy, when he said he observed his father give a healing "priesthood blessing" to his sibling, whom Maxwell thought was dead.
This, was the sum total of their answers--answers that I did not need to travel 700 miles to Salt Lake to hear. I could have saved everyone a lot of time and trouble if I had just stayed home, gone to the next fast and testimony meeting at our local ward and listened to regular members bear personal witness to the same kind of experiences.
There was no testimony bearing from these modern-day Peters and Pauls of personal visits, in the Flesh, from the Father or the Son.
There was no telling of any "road to Damascus" story
There was no recounting of angelic visitations.
There was no description of rushing winds or flames of fire.
In short, there was "no there there."
Oh, and this inspirational gem: During these conversations I had with Oaks and Maxwell, Oaks also told me that the basis for his personal testimony about the truthfulness of Mormonism took the form of a warm spiritual witness which he felt in his heart. He told me that there was no evidence proving or disproving the Book of Mormon, then placed his hand over his heart and said, "I get this knot, this warm feeling right here, and that is what I go on." Oaks added that he had a conviction that the Book of Mormon was "true." He said that feeling of truthfulness came from a "personal witness."
He didn't mention anything about a special visit from Jesus.
So, there you have it: The Apostles "Special Witness" testimonies consist of warm fuzzies, combined with experiences they had while in college institute or as kids watching their dad give family blessings.
Now, quit bothering God's Guys with such pesky, intemperate questions, bow your head and say yes, while at the same time turning in a full tithing envelope, thank you very much. As that performing huckster carnival barker W.C. Fields said to a particular skeptic, "Go away, kid. Ya bother me":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MZWq14uD-A
Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2010 09:48PM by steve benson.
I was taught that they were speshul wit-n-asses because they actually saw Jesus? How can you be a speshul wit-n-ass if you have not met the person you are speshul wit-n-assing for?
. . . and it's just to sacred to talk about.