Ok, so I knew this would blow-up eventually and here is the fall-out. Sorry, but this is going to be long. She is a family member recently (April of this year) married in the temple to another TBM family. I left the church 10 years ago. This all started because I made a comment about Romney comparing the WOW to the Ten Commandments on my FB page. Here is the conversation - enjoy:

Her - I apologize for my public outburst today, but the feelings behind it are still there. I'm not sure what I've done to cause what seems like a rift between us--and one that seems to have been there since I decided to get married in the temple and you guys opted not to come. I'm not sure if that was supposed to be a personal statement or what, but I have to say that it hurt me deeply. You guys have been some of the only family I've really been close to and I feel like something happened that has caused you to completely disrespect me. I know you don't agree with my beliefs, but I had hoped you cared enough about me as your niece not to humiliate me and call what I hold dear stupid. I don't do that to you. I never have and I never will.

My response - You mis-understand me (or my post) I think. First of all, I wasn't trashing your religion. I was trashing Romney using it to pander to politics. I'm sick of that from all parties and not just him, but he's trying to use it more than others. The temple wedding thing was 90% a matter of timing. Plus, I didn't see that it was a big deal to not be there since we couldn't view the ceremnony. What I really don't understand is a church that is supposed to be about family that won't allow people that "aren't worthy" be able to see people they love get married. You also should know that I will not hide my beliefs about a church which I left due to the way it treated me and my relationship with my wife and also made my wife feel like a 2nd class citizen. Though that wasn't a majority of the reason that I resigned my membership, it did contribute. I also feel it keeps your step-dad away from me and I miss and love him dearly (as hard as that may sound). As for any proposed rift, I don't see it there, or feel it for that matter. We just don't get time together. These things happen as you get older and people have different priorities for their lives and where you live. Yes, it sucks. My wife and I love you guys and are proud of you as people. Keep it up. I'd type more, but I have to get to work and I'm rambling anyway. Good luck with finals or winter quarter or however that works....

Her back to me -
To organize my thoughts:
1. I understood it was mostly about Romney, and that didn't bother me so much, because he's a politician and I'm not sure where I stand on him anyway. What bothered me was your direct statement about the Word of Wisdom and how it's asinine to think that that could be a consideration into salvation. That I viewed as the attack on my faith. I was bugged because of all the things that I believe, that seems to be such a small one--I choose not to drink alcohol or coffee, but I don't judge people who do. I really could care less.

2. I understand your mindset about not coming if you couldn't see the "wedding" part. But in reality, that took a whole 15 minutes and then a two hour reception. I could be wrong, I haven't been to many weddings, but I thought most people came for the reception anyway, because therein lies the cake, food, music, and getting to talk to the new bride and groom. Maybe I overreacted on that, and I'm sorry. I just felt hurt that two (three counting your daughter) of the people that I care most about in the world didn't come. But then you did for my sister's. I get it if it was about timing, but you have to understand how it looked from my standpoint--especially when you guys were just the last in a long line of none of my family that came. None of my grandparents, cousins, aunts, or uncles. It was just painful. For most, I'm sure it was about money and travel, and I totally understand that. It was just hard to see that that was the only reason when I got several comments about people not being able to see the ceremony.

3. About the temple: yes, we place importance on the family, but first and foremost is our obligation to the commandments of God. And whether you agree or not, some of those commandments include certain qualifications that other people may not consider--but they're part of our canon. I believe that the temple is the only way I could get married to the man I love and not have it end at death. I'm sure you don't believe that, but wouldn't you take that if it was offered to you? I didn't like not having my family in there. It's not a pleasant thing to hurt people who don't and won't understand. But (and this is what I also told my dad when he protested about not being allowed in): you had every opportunity to come in. He did too. You chose not to. You left the church, he's inactive, etc. You may not consider that a real answer, but I don't really get the "not worthy and bitter" argument from people, because it's available. Nobody but you is holding you out. If you want to get into a college, you do the work and get the grades. Same principle.

4. As to your leaving the church, I don't know much about why. Your reasons were vague, though I would be interested to know more if you're willing to share. The only thing I've ever heard was that you read and believed some anti-Mormon lit and that you were upset when you didn't receive a calling you wanted in the ward. I will say this though--you were offended by a person, not by the Church itself, at least initially. If someone acted in a rude or condescending way, I apologize for them. That's not the way we're taught to be, and none of us are perfect. The majority of us are trying to follow Christ and that is something that as Christians, I hope we can all agree on. I've never found bashing another religion to be particularly Christlike, myself.

I'm sorry I lashed out. I've been under a lot of stress lately and it was kind of the last straw. I love you guys so much and I miss being closer and coming and visiting.

And my final response, there has not been one back -
1. Good deal. No Christian would ever put health "laws" into the same category as the Ten Commandments. Never. In fact, the 2nd stanza specifically says that it is given without commandment.
2. Most people do not plan and go to weddings for the reception. People go to weddings to see two people that love each other give themselves to each other in front of God. I was in Phoenix and with it being on a Friday could not get off an airplane in time, pull my daughter out of school thereby making her truant and make the 5 hour drive to SA to be there. Plus what you mention about seeing the ceremony.
3. What a cruel stance to take. I wouldn't ask you to renounce your religion to come to my wedding. While you say I have every opportunity to come in, I don't. Your church will not allow me to come in because I believe Joseph Smith to be a power hungry fraud. Regardless of the fact that temple worship in any flavor has never been a theme of the history of Christianity. Everything is in Jesus. Only the Pharisees wanted to keep people out of the temple and let only the 'most righteous' partake. However, that all went out the window when Christ died for our sins - the temple as far as Judaism is no longer required. I have two thoughts on the eternal marriage. One is that Christ in all his messages does not emphasize it. Two is that marriage does not have to happen in a temple for you to be together in eternity. I will see all my relatives after this death should they believe on Christ. That is what the scriptures say. No where in all of the history of Christianity has temple marriage for eternity been a theme of any eschatology.
4. What you have heard is a lie. It had nothing to do with anyone offending me or a calling. That was probably told to you because the truth would possibly damage your testimony or wasn't believed. I would rather have this conversation face to face, but will give you an overview. My decision did not come lightly and only after months of heartfelt prayer and study. First of all you couldn't be further from the truth in saying that someone offended me first. It was the church that offended me. I learned of several things, in no particular order:a - the translation of the BOM with JS putting his head in a hat and looking at seer stones is hardly similar to translating off of the purported golden plates. b - the book of abraham is a complete fraud and shows that JS had no power of discernment or translation. c - the church glosses over the origins of the first vision - there are 11 different versions over a decade and zero proof or even evidence that any of them happened when they have claimed to have happened. d - (and I realize this one is a touchy subject) The changes to the temple ceremonies. If they are eternal and what was given to JS was the restoration, then why have major parts been changed. Even as recently as 1990 with the death oaths being taken out. e - I read the entire BOM and prayed about it and God came back and told me it was false. I was following all church rules at the time and fasting. Can't mistake the message.

I think the biggest proof is that my life and my marriage are better off away from the church than it ever was while I was in it. Not materialistically either, but spiritually. I feel closer to God now than I ever did then and I utterly reject everything the Joseph Smith stands for, and frankly I find his "work" offensive. To say that anything more that the death of Christ for remission of sins is required for salvation kills it for me and adds to "the gospel" regardless of denomination. I could go on and on, but I won't. My boss expected me in a meeting 5 minutes ago. Take care, love you.


End of thread. She hasn't, nor will she respond. This ended 5 days ago. Appreciate any and all feedback. The leaving part could have been another 5 pages, but I had wagered that she had probably stopped reading by then anyway.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2011 12:16PM by exmo99.

I don't know what to make of your final response without it.

That's the end of the conversation - there is no "final response" from her.

After her 1st response you reply, they you say "Her back to me" and it repeats your reply again, not hers, unless my brain and eyes are malfunctioning, which is possible.

My bad - it's corrected now.

"Her back to me"- you just re-quoted what you had said to her. We need to know what she said so we can understand your final response.

My guess is that she views you as a lost cause, doomed ( or damned )to Hell, Outer darkness,whatever, and as such has decided not to waste her time arguing with an apostate. I'm sure you rocked her world a bit. She was all comfy and cozy with the "fact" that you left because you were offended and now you have blown that theory. Sometimes the truth is too much to face.

if you would just submit to their beliefs and rules.

As if that's a perfectly reasonable request.

Your niece has been so deeply programmed that it never dawns on her how cruel the exclusion is of her own father and other family members.

Also, as a nevermo the Mormon custom of weekday temple weddings strikes me as being odd. Every nevermo wedding that I've attended has taken place on a Saturday. I remember when a Mormon girl to whom I was talking told me that her temple wedding was planned for a weekday in August (I can't remember which day, precisely, but it was either a Tuesday or a Wednesday.) I thought, what a strange day to pick for your wedding! Of course I had the sneaking suspicion that she was getting married at a very busy temple.

I'm guessing she isn't so sorry you didn't attend her reception, NOW!

It makes perfect sense to them though.

ETA: That was supposed to be in reply to imaworkinonit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2011 12:41PM by ginger.

when it comes to the church.

Then you can get feedback (visual or verbal) about when it's time to back off or continue. And they can get your verbal inflexions and understand your intent better.

When you (or they) write, they can reread what you said over and over or pick at it. Or share it with someone else. It tends to fester more.

Another advantage of talking is that you can more easily ignore the content of what they said and just focus on reassuring them about the relationship instead of responding point by point. You CAN also do that in an e-mail. Just something like "I'm sorry you felt bad, but here is a short explanation of why I didn't come: . . ."

And it's less time consuming to talk. You don't have to be perfect. There IS some comfort in having time to measure what you say when you write. But on the flip side, I think that TBMS say things in electronic format that they would NEVER say face to face. So if you make a rule that you won't discuss this stuff by e-mail, she might not have the chutzpah to do it in person.

I know how draining the types of exchanges can be. Sadly, I found out that some people in my life wanted me to respect their beliefs, but had no respect for mine. I hope that things work out with her.

In this case, the written word was better than the verbal word.

Had this exchange been verbal, chances are, it would not have last that long and his family member getting married would not have known how to handle his "apostasy" so she would have felt verbally attacked and would have shut down, though he did not attack her personally imo

If she wants to speak to him in the future about his new found knowledge, I assume that'll he'll olige her.

You lost me when you asserted that you prayed about the book of mormon and received an answer from god that it wasn't true.

Could you elaborate please?

In case you don't remember, you said: "I read the entire BOM and prayed about it and God came back and told me it was false."

I was speaking on terms she would understand. Of course there was no voice or feeling or any of that crap, but the brain that God gave me shows that it's not true. Make sense?

I would agree with you that critical thinking skills, when applied to mormonism, reveal it to be a fraud.

But that's true also of god concepts.

I can't necessarily disagree with that. I struggle with the "it all just happened" part. I think something put this all together. Now, whether we are supposed to know why or how it happened is another discussion. Frankly, I'm not sure it even matters if we know how or why all this happened. I do believe in the soul and higher powers so to speak, and I have an MS in engineering...

Even if you assert that you have trouble with the "it all just happened" and say you think something put this all together, then you have to honestly ask what put that thing (god) together that put this all together?

If something really did put this all together, that being is the most complex thing that exists. Where did it come from? Did that thing "just exist" or "always exist"?

If so, then you're right back to your original point of having trouble with the "it all just happened" only for some suspicious reason you have no trouble believing that "god just happened."

If you're ok with a god "just happening" why aren't you ok with anything else "just happening?"

I'm not arguing, just really want to see how it's different.

Actually, this makes perfect sense to me.

I love it that someone could say to a Mormon: "I read the BoM and prayed. God told me it wasn't true."

Don't you-all find that hilarious???

I mean, what can they say?

Of course God does not answer that kind of prayer one way or the other, just as God does not answer the two opposing football teams each of whom is praying to win the game. How ludicrous it that? Tim Tebow, get a brain.

So, I say, yes, throw their ideas right back at them with a twist.

She asked...and you replied...succinctly...up front....and honestly, without attack on her (imo)

Well put and well said.

One of the things I like and believe is where we will see our loved ones after death...in "regular" heaven...not the mormon's version including the temple and the multi-tiered level they have.

Make sure and save this exchange as a copy in case someone else says you attacked her for her beliefs. You clearly did not.

My advice is to follow the advice my "dad" (maternal grandfather) gave me when I was still a teen:

"If you want to keep a friend, don't discuss religion or politics."

The reason? I think it's obvious. These are highly entrenched emotional issues that unless you are on the same page, it causes a riff. It's a matter of being with or against someone because of their views as they are emotionally bonded personal issues that are taken personally.

If you want to continue with the friendship, I'd suggest you call a truce, recognizing that you have different views. No biggie, we can't all be the same.
Say something like this: Lets don't let our different views ruin a friendship! Then apologize for anything you may have said that was hurtful and be kind and respectful -- treat her the way you want to be treated.

This is one of the reasons I say, over and over, that we can keep some things private and not discuss them with anyone. Religion is one of them. That is why I advocate not going into detail when we decide to leave the church. It's not necessary and too often just causes hurt feelings and more problems than necessary.

I have known dozens of LDS folks that were inactive and never had a clue why. And that's fine. It's none of my business anyhow.

It's a new skill in many ways, to learn to stop answering questions as it's so acceptable in Mormonism. It's considered OK and everyone does it (for the most part.) Just because someone asks a question does not mean we have to answer it. :-)

So it boils down to how much you want to keep the friendship.
I think you cleared the air, so to speak, and were frank and did it in a civil manner.
Now, you can close the book and let it go and go forward.

She's my niece and she looks up to me, or at least did prior to this exchange. I'm confident that the friendship will continue in some sense. The problem now is she's growing up so to speak. She's in college and will likely stay near Utah after school or go wherever the hubby goes for his degree. Our paths won't cross that much in the future, but we'll be civil when it happens.

Good advice. I wasn't going to respond until she said what she said about me not being able to go to the wedding and when she asked why I left.

Again as I stated...she asked and you replied...

If your neice is hurt, upset, offended by what you wrote, then that's on her.

Your comments about your niece remind me a little of my wife when she ASKS our kids if:
They WANT to pick up dog poop for her.
They WANT to take out the trash
They WANT to shovel the snow off of the driveway.

Then she gets made when my kids answer her honestly.

I've told my wife (and she's doing this now)

Don't ask the kids to do something...TELL them to do it...nicely and with a "please" thrown in there

I would not be surprised if she still thinks that you left because you were offended. Mormons can't wrap their mind around the possibility that what they believe may not be true. They are told over and over like a broken record.....the gospel is perfect, the people are not.....and that is what they believe, come hell or high water. She would be an unusual mormon if she actually made an effort to find out if what you said had any merit.

Her reply about your choice to not be at the temple wedding is also a canned reply that she has learned. In her mind it's all your fault! If you believed what she knows is true, you could have been there. There is no room for any other reasoning. She has learned her canned answers well.

It is sad to me that she was totally ok with her wedding only lasting 15 minutes. It would seem that something so important to her should last a little more than 15 minutes. She must have gotten married on one of those busy days where they just shuffle them through. Hurry up! your holding up the line! If anything at all bothered her about that day, I would say that was it.

I couldn't help but wonder if the only reason she had a conversation with you, was an attempt to lay some guilt and true doctrine on you, oh and to find out the juicy details of why you really left. When that didn't work, she got mad and gave up.

I could be wrong, but that was my impression.

Thanks for posting this. It helps me as a nevermo to understand the thought process of the convert who chooses to marry in the temple despite the fact that none of her family could be there.

I really hate the slogan that the church is true but the people aren't. Or as the niece put it, "You were offended by a person, not by the Church itself."

How is that any different from saying that Nazism or Stalinism are wonderful, and it's just the people who couldn't pull it off? You can't seperate an organization from the people who are part of it.

And one more thing, I find it irritating when mormons refer to their religion as "the gospel."

When people do this around me I ask them which gospel are they referring to - Matthew, Mark, Luke, John? Really throws them off.