"bignev" recently claimed the following in a now-closed thread:
"Steve . . . you left out:
"the exact cause is unknown.... you used part of the 'cause' but left out the most important part (to me and a lot of other people)
"the cause is unknown.... that is straight from one of your sources you are using confirmation bias especially in light of leaving out: 'the exact cause is unknown...'"
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,360588,361091#msg-361091_____
The following is what "bignev" left out, as "bignev's" own selective memory demonstrates.
It was laid it out in a previous thread where I pointed out directly to "bignev" (quoting "bignev's" own words, no less) the severe case of amnesia and misrepresentation afflicting "bignev"--a case which is apparently feeding "bignev's" continued big, never-ending obsession with the topic, while at the same time severely compromising "bignev's" ability to keep "bignev's" own promise to move on:
Bigneverread . . .
It appears you and I weren't looking at the same post.
I think you night need to pay a bit more attention to what you read. Let's take it step-by-step in demonstrating why.
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**Religion as an Environmental Factor in Mental Disorder
You categorically claimed:
“Religion COULD be an envirnmental factor...although none actually state that.”
Since religion is an obvious environmental factor worthy of co-implication in the generation of religious delusions, it didn't have to be explicitly identified in those terms because:
(a) astute readers would know of its role in that regard; and
(b) religion was clearly mentioned repeatedly in cited sources as amounting to environmental factor.
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**Not All Sources I Cited Said That All Religious People Suffer from Religion Delusion
Again, you categorically claimed:
“NONE of your sources make the claims you are...that ALL religious people have a dilusional disorder. NONE of your sources say that...only YOU do... thats my point . . . .”
In fact, quotations I provided from those sources show that they didn't While the theme of my post was that religious believers are certainly in many cases cases delusionally disordered, not every source I cited claimed that “all religious people” are delusionally disordered.
For instance, the cited “Washington Times” article referenced a BBC report on the influence that the neurological wiring of the human brain plays in producing religious-like sensations. The article said nothing about religious delusional disorders hampering those in the study group; rather, it reported on organic brain function that naturally produces “strong religious,” “mystical” or “holy vision” sensations--in believers and non-believers alike--and which can be misinterpreted by believers and non-believers alike as something other than what they are.
Here's the relevant portion of that article in that regard:
"Does the biological structure of our brains program us to believe in God? Advances in “neurotheology” have prompted some researchers to claim they can induce the kind of holy visions prophets may have experienced--even in those who are not religious believers.”
(as quoted by Mark Smith, “Temporal Lobe Epilepsy,” in “Set Free!,” at:
http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc20Topics/schizophrenia_and_personal_revelations; the same news article is also available from the U.K. “Telegraph,” at:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3306312/Holy-visions-elude-scientists.html)
Parenthetically, that above news article did mention the case of Seventh-day Adventists founder Ellen White's sensational religious feelings, but reported that her delusions in that regard were a result of temporal lobe epilepsy, which the article noted supported the scientific finding that the temporal lobes are the origination point in the brain for so-called “religious” experiences.
There were other sources, however, which I referenced and quoted in which connections were made, to one degree or another, between religious indoctrination and religion delusional disorder.
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**Delusionary Cult Efforts to Rein In the Non-Deluded
I quoted from a source suggesting that some people not suffering from pre-existing religious delusion disorder can nonetheless be influenced toward development of such a mental malady through efforts by religious groups (in this case, cults) to snare and retain them.
Note was made, for instance, of family break-ups that occur when resistant family members refuse, despite pressure from other family members, to accept religious delusions as being anything but real, having concluded that they themselves are not delusional:
“Problems arise when a partner discovers that they are not delusional. When family members refuse to accept the delusions the result is often a breakup of the family unit. There is often no middle ground for a delusion believer and a non-delusion thinker.”
In further regard to religious cults, I quoted from that same source which pointed out who religious cults can be involved in the perpetration of religious mental disorders among their followers, with the cults denying, of course, that they are acting like a cult:
“ . . . [S]ome cults don’t perceive themselves as a cult and don’t understand why they’re not accepted by mainstream religions.”
(“Social Conscience and Rational Thinking,” posted by “skiutah,” under “Delusional Disorder,” at:
http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/delusional-disorder/)at.
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**Delusion-Driven Religious/Cultural Group Efforts at Creating Delusion
I also cited a source which suggested religious delusions can be created within the circles of “religious and cultural groups” (meaning in churches and other institutions) when, through exertion of cultural and religious influence, the mental state of individuals can give way to the eventual development of religious-rooted mind disorders that, in any other context, would be considered to be a form of mental illness:
“Given these descriptors of religious delusion, the question is then asked: 'Why do religions and cultural groups get the exemption? A mental disorder is only a disorder in particular contexts?'”
(Doug Reardon, “Religious and Cultural Exemptions to Delusional Disorder,” January 2011, in “Think Atheist,” at:
http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/religious-and-cultural)
In this regard, poster “dagny” seemed to have grasped from the OP what you appear to have missed; namely, that modern-day religious groups do, in fact, popularize mental illness-producing beliefs among otherwise normal-minded members, which then can lead to the development of religious delusion disorder.
As “dagny” observed:
“Is religion a mental illness? For some reason, cultural consensus appears to decide this. What's the difference between these two things: You talk to Jesus before you go to sleep (popular, accepted by consensus to not be 'crazy.') Or--You talk to invisible flying alligators under your bed (hello, welcome to your room in the asylum). Seriously, is there any difference? If you think there is, I'd like to see the proof, other than the fact that one is accepted and one is not.”
(“That's the way I've come to view it too, RAG,” posted by: “dagny,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” bulletin board, “ 3 December 2011, at:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,356639,356952#msg-356952)
Indeed, underscoring “dagny's” observation is one of the links in my OP, headlined, in part: “. . . God Myths Have Survived Because Smart People Are Very Good at Rationalizing Things That They Came to Believe for Non-Smart Reasons,” posted by “skiutah,” under “Delusional Disorder,” 11 July 2011, at:
http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/delusional-disorder/On cultural pressure to foster religious delusion, I also cited a source referencing a deluded “religious subculture” in Haiti, where mentally-disordered religion is practiced by that culture in mentally dysfunctional ways which results in the eventual inculcation in group members of strange beliefs and practices. (Please note that there was no mention made of religious delusion in that particular excerpt afflicting all religious members of Haiti society):
“The cultural relativity of 'delusions'--most evident where the beliefs shown are typical of the person's subculture or religion yet would be viewed as strange or delusional by the dominant culture--can force complex choices to be made in diagnosis and treatment.
“An example could be that of a Haitian immigrant to the United States who believed in voodoo. If that person became aggressive toward neighbors issuing curses or hexes--believing that death is imminent at the hands of those neighbors--a question arises. The belief is typical of the individual's subculture, so the issue is whether it should be diagnosed or treated. If it were to be treated, whether the remedy should come through Western medicine or be conducted through voodoo shamanistic treatment is the problem to be solved."
(“Delusional Disorder,” in “Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders,” at:
http://www.minddisorders.com/Br-Del/Delusional-disorder.html#ixzz1fSoBP5Xb)
As to religious and other societal cultures, I quoted from a source that makes note of the influence of both of those pressure groups on the mindset of individuals within those cultures to accept certain beliefs as normal.
". . . [P]ersonal beliefs should be evaluated with great respect to complexity of cultural and religious differences: some cultures have widely accepted beliefs that may be considered delusional in other cultures."
(Shivani Chopra, MD; Raheel A. Khan, DO; James A. Bourgeois, OD, MD, MPA; and Donald M, Hilty, MD, "Delusional Disorder," updated 10 March 2011, in "Medscape Reference: Drugs, Diseases and Procedures," at:
http://reference.medscape.com/)
_____
**I Didn't Cite the Cause of Religious Delusion? I'm Afraid You Must be Deluded
You asserted that I “actually left out a key part of the article Steve...'the Cause... "...which is disingenuous.”
What you actually did in your inattentive claim was to leave in the decidedly inaccurate impression that I did not address the causation issue at all--which was disingenuous on your part.
Please recall that I asked you to review the entire post (which included the links to all the cited sources). Had you read carefully (which you seem to have not), you would have noticed that, in fact, I quoted from several sources/articles relative to the cause(s) of religious delusion disorder:
“Traditionally, religious delusion, with or without hallucinations, has been associated with schizophrenia, affective psychoses, complex partial seizure disorder and drug-induced psychoses. Recent reports have associated religious delusion with epileptic postictal psychosis, psychoses characterized by self-inflicted injuries, psychoses induced by general medical illnesses and mystical religious fervor.”
(The authors responsible for this above assessment, however, note--as I quoted--that "[l]ittle is known about the clinical features associated with religious delusion and how religious delusion may differ across various diagnostic groups.. . . Although religious delusion has regularly been reported throughout the history of neuropsychiatry, surprisingly, there is no systematic study of religious delusion in unselected populations of psychiatric patients").
(M. Raja, A. Azzoni and L. Lubich, “Religious Delusion: An Observational Study of Religious Delusion in a Population of 313 Acute Psychiatric In-Patients,” in “Schwetzer Archive for Neurology and Psychiatry," 151, January 2000, p. 22, at:
http://www.sanp.ch/pdf/2000/2000-01/2000-01-058.PDF)
Below are some more quotes that I provided on religious delusion causation:
"Not all of these cases are based on religious delusions but scientists . . . have already proven there is a pathological connection between schizophrenia and religious delusion. Treatment is iffy at best with these folks because when they take their medication, they realize they aren't as 'religious' as they were off their medication so their treatment often fails. Then there are those who comply with their treatment plan and realize that their obsessive-compulsive religious thoughts and behaviors were a result of their psychiatric diagnosis. . . .
"Unfortunately, many don't get help because of their pre-conceived religious perception. Then the problem exacerbates and often their peers continue to egg them on when they need serious psychiatric help. The line has to be drawn at some point where successful intervention can be made. So often with religious folk, that line gets extended beyond a normal mental state where treatment can be perceived as satanic."
"[The people studied] had already been diagnosed as schizophrenic and psychotic with religious delusions . . . [with] study [being] done specifically on the religiously deluded. There have been a minimum of 78 peer-reviewed research studies published on religious delusion that were cited . . . so the case is not an isolated one."
(“Religious Delusions Are a Common Symptom of Schizophrenia,” posted “Medicine*Woman,” in “Sciforums.com,” at:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=51361&page=3):
“ . . . [S]chizophrenia is a better and simpler explanation for all the people--past and present--who have claimed that [the] Bible god spoke to them. . . .
“'In paranoid schizophrenia, the patient becomes convinced of beliefs at odds with reality hears voices that aren't there or see images that exist nowhere but in his mind. . . .The voices the patients heard were therefore as real to them as the conversations in the hallways they passed through en route to the lab. . . . The seeming authenticity of the voices means that people with schizophrenia can be barraged by commands that, they are convinced, come from God or Satan. That inference is not illogical; who else can speak to you, unseen, from inside your mind?”
(Mark Smith, “Schizophrenia and Personal Revelations,” in “Set Free!,” at:
http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc%20Topics/schizophrenia_and_personal_revelations.htm)
“Joseph Smith displayed classic symptoms of the grandiose form of delusional disorder. He was successful at attracting other people with delusional disorder and convincing them of his visions. This core band of nascent Mormon leaders (all suffering from delusional disorder) were successful at passing on the delusional gene to their children through widespread polygamy in the early Mormon church years.”
(“Social Conscience and Rational Thinking,” posted by “skiutah,” under “Delusional Disorder,” at:
http://coventryrm.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/delusional-disorder/)
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**A Summary of My Post
Based on the sources I cited and examples I presented in the OP, religious delusions can occur as a result of:
--pre-exisiting individual mental dysfunction;
--external religious/cultural influence brought to bear on individuals who are not necessarily presently suffering from pre-set psychosis;
--the fostering by religious groups of delusional beliefs that encourage their members to interpret naturally-produced “mystical” experiences within their brains as being actual “holy vision” or “prophetic” communications from God when, in fact, they are the result of neurological realities organically produced within both healthy or injured brains; and
--religious indoctrination that includes standard teaching of visionary tales from canonized Christian scripture that are presented as actual events, which teaching can have a decidedly negative effect on people who conclude that they are entitled to the same kind of alleged visionary contacts with God.
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**You, Me and the Research Thing
Finally, you accused me of not doing my own research with this “btw” claim of yours:
“ . . . [Y]ou may have read and copy and pasted (which is what I did) but you did not do the research that you cite! so to say 'do my own research you are being disingenuous at best and are using a red herring.”
When I said I did my own research, it was certainly clear enough as to what I meant; namely, that I source-searched for published studies, papers, articles and other findings which I then cited in the OP. My statement that I had done my own research in that regard is hardly misleading within that context, as evidenced by the fact that the sources I came across through my own research efforts I then quoted, sourced and linked.
In addition, in terms of personal research, I have read in its entirety, then dissected section by section, a topic-related review of clinical research on this subject (one which, by the way, I have already linked to you in this current thread). It was a published paper recommended to me by another poster, as I noted here:
(“Koenig the Seminarian: A Barnstorming Believer Who Wants to Be Taken Scientifically Seriously in His Pitch for the Mental Health Benefits of Supernaturalism,” posted by Steve Benson,” on “Recovery from Mormonism” bulletin board, 29 November 2011, at:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,353070,353070#msg-353070)
Moreover, in related threads on this topic, I have quoted at length from my personal reading of resource material in my own library--most recently from the works of Richard Dawkins and Michael Shermer on the generation of in-brain “religious” experiences, as noted here:
(“How the Realities of Science Trump the Myths of Religion in Providing Non-Deluded Hope for a Better World,” posted by Steve Benson, on “Recovery from Mormonism” bulletin board, 3 December 2011, at:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,357028)
But since you have chosen to make an issue of research in your reply, please point me to examples of your own multiple-source-searching research efforts on these topics, as demonstrated in this thread and in past threads. I think I may have missed them. :)
If you can't produce them, that's OK.
I'll cut you a little break: What books have you read on the subject lately? :)
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,356639,357128#msg-357128*****
One more thing that "bignev" keeps leaving out is "bignev's" ongoing non-compliance with "bignev's" earlier assurance that "bignev" was going to cease and desist from "bignev's" big, never-ending, frenzied fetish:
"here is another one... THEN I AM OFF THIS DAMN HORSE!!:)"
(emphasis added, since you like caps so much)
("LOL!!!," posted by "bignevermo." on "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 5 December 2011, at:
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,357316,357417#msg-357417}
"Don't try to understand them,
Just rope, throw and brand 'em . . . "
Yeehaw!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl2fONPgIJEEdited 18 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2011 03:56PM by steve benson.