"'Santa Not What Christmas Is About'

"[It haas been] opined that teaching second-graders that there is no Santa Claus ruined their Christmas [Jim McAlliser, 'Why Do Some People Try to Take Fun and Joy Out of Christmas?,' in 'Arizona Republic,' 11 December 2011].

"I don't see how. It seems to me that people were celebrating Christmas centuries before the Santa Claus legend started.

"It seems to me that a lot of adults and older children who don't believe in Santa Claus still enjoy celebrating Christmas.

"If there is any ruining of Christmas, it is knowingly teaching falsehoods to children. That teaches distrust, dishonesty and hypocrisy.

" . . . I don't think that's supposed to be the meaning of Christmas."

--Kevin Walsh, Phoenix

("Letters to the Editor," in "Arizona Republic,' 13 December 2011, at: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/2011/12/13/20111213-santa-not-what-christmas-about.html#ixzz1gO73F5Kf)
_____


RfM poster "munchybotaz" weighs in with anti-Santa support:

" . . . I haven't been told off by anyone here, yet, this year. Rest assured, though, that I'm living in proper infamy with my former in-laws. They still tell my son, now 23, that he had no childhood.

"I'm blo-ho-ho-hown away by all of this Santa defending. Gosh, you'd think he was a real guy, or Jebus or somebody."

(posted by "munchybotaz," "Recovery from Mormonism" bulletin board, 13 December 2011)



Edited 13 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 12:46AM by steve benson.

If we are going to stop lying to our kids, do we really want to start with Santa?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 01:29AM by steve benson.

Never mind the lesson that parents can't necessarily be trusted, when the kids either figure out on their own or hear from other kids or their parents that Santa doesn't exist. And by the way I think the Santa defenders are really discounting the possibility and impact of that, even where there's no behavioral threat.

Do you want your kids to be suckers? Why would you ever encourage that in the first place?

but then I'm the Grinch Who Stole Childhood, so maybe I'm not the best person to ask.

Happens every time. :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 02:24AM by steve benson.

well at least with me! :)

. . . you mentioned what you regarded as a positive lack of "personal investment" (which you now say you were attempting to attribute and direct to poster Stumbling, not to Timothy).



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 11:10AM by steve benson.

Right, but since we lie all day long, to ourselves and others, aren't we doing the same thing to our kids, whether we know it or not?

I have a pretty broad definition of lying. :)

Sure. And I'm thinking mostly about in personal relationships. Some people are worse liars and some lies are worse than others. But deception and self-deception is constantly taking place, imo. That's why I say we are all delusional in some way, shape or form. Of course, even if that's accurate, it doesn't justify it. It just might mean one has to make a greater effort to be honest.

I mean, just tonight I kept the snickers bar in my pocket when I walked in the door so my wife wouldn't say anything. :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 03:01AM by thingsithink.

. . . particularly on to children.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 08:19AM by steve benson.

The Santa discussion really has given me something to think about. I've always thought similar to the people who have said it is harmless.

However, I have made it a point to always tell my son that certain things (movies, monsters, etc.) are not real and just pretend. Because I don't want him to really think its true. But I never really thought about the Santa Claus delusion because it seemed rooted in fun.

I definitely agree that Santa shouldn't be used as a threat - be good or no toys. I almost feel like it wouldn't make a different if I said "Santa Claus is not real - its just for fun." Something tells me he wouldn't care.

I don't believe Santa is a destructive idea if it is handled well. I like thingsithink's phrase "just for fun". When I was young my parents pushed the idea of giving so that others who were less fortunate could have a good Christmas. When our family went through some financial reverses Christmas still came, and I think the idea that Christmas is magical survives. Santa Claus, like Peter Pan and the tooth fairy does not. When my children were young Santa left the toys, but as they grew the really cool stuff came from parents and Santa left the socks and underwear and toothbrushes. It was not hard for them to embrace the magic of Christmas and let go of the illusion of Santa. (I also never told them Santa was real or not real until they asked, and then I told the truth, starting with are you sure you want to know? and do you want to know right now? One child asked to wait until after next Christmas and did remember to ask.)

The fun justifies the means.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 02:57AM by steve benson.

"That teaches distrust, dishonesty and hypocrisy."

Really?

As an atheist, I have to admit that many atheists are just as annoying as the religious fundamentalists.

I never learned to distrust my parents because they had me believing in Santa. I didn't grow up with any issues because I was lied to by my parents. I have fond memories of those years.

This is not a big deal. It's just Santa.

Kids believe in make-believe stuff all the time, even when adults aren't pushing it on them.

As the letter writer observes:

"If there is any ruining of Christmas, it is knowingly teaching falsehoods to children. That teaches distrust, dishonesty and hypocrisy."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 03:08AM by steve benson.

Nope. Not the same thing.

"--Santa Claus is Too Similar to Jesus and God:

"The parallels between Santa Claus and Jesus or God are numerous. Santa Claus is a nearly all-powerful, supernatural person who dispenses rewards and punishment to people all over the world based upon whether they adhere to a pre-defined code of conduct. His existence is implausible or impossible, but faith is expected if one is to receive the rewards. Believers should regard this as blasphemous; non-believers shouldn’t want their kids prepared in this way to adopt Christianity or theism."

("Santa Claus: Should Parents Perpetuate the Santa Claus Myth?," by Austin Cline, at: http://atheism.about.com/od/christmasholidayseason/p/SantaMyth.htm)



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 03:13AM by steve benson.

You're right Steve. Now that I think about it, I hate my parents and will never trust them again because of that dirty trick they played on me when I was 4.

From Tom Flynn's "The Trouble With Christmas" (Albany, New York: Prometheus Books, 1993):

*Reason #4: ”The myth encourages lazy parenting and promotes unhealthy fear.”

It is unwise parents who hold Santa over the heads of their children as a god-like promise of reward for good behavior and as a divine threat of punishment for bad.

Flynn writes:

"Children see Santa as an all-seeing judge who holds in one hand the carrot of Christmas, in the other a stick shaped like a lump of coal. The temptation for parents to abuse the myth is strong. “Mothers get a lot of mileage out of Christmas,” Erma Bombeck once observed. Parents do not imagine the damage they may do when they use the Claus as a club."

This omnipresent Santa figure, like the myth of an all-seeing God, reminds children that there is no place for them to hide:

"The Santa myth teaches kids that they live in a world without privacy. The idea of a watcher who overlooks not a single forbidden actions or a single wayward thought--even one parents miss--can hardly fail to terrify some children. . . .

"In essence, Flynn argues, parents who use Santa to produce compliant children are making “coalitions with God by:”

". . . extract[ing] obedience by threatening children with divine punishment. The children believe that God sees what they do, knows what they think, and punishes wrong actions. Viewed like this, God is the equivalent of Santa Claus. . . .

"[I]f parents can harm their children by claiming that God is their back-up, using Santa Claus that way is probably harmful, too."

(pp. 137-38)


*Reason #5: ”The number of characteristics that Santa Claus shares with God and Jesus verges on the blasphemous.”

Children do, indeed, make definite connections in their minds between Santa and God. As Flynn notes:

"Research studies, personal anecdotes, and press reports illustrate the links between Santa Claus, God, and Jesus in the popular mind. One psychologist . . . [reported] that children’s belief in Santa Claus “lays the groundwork for later belief in God.” . . . Arnold Gesell, director of the Yale Clinic of Child Development, revealed that three-year-olds he had studied understood the concept of Santa Claus before they knew the concept of God. John Shlien reported that four- and five-year-olds would not eat candies shaped like Santa Claus, a behavior thought to show reverence. Another writer complained in the 1930s about overhearing his daughter praying to Santa Claus"

Examples of the similarities between Jesus and St. Nick in the following areas have been provided by Idaho secular humanist Ralph Nielsen:

"MIRACLES

Santa Claus: Flying reindeer
Jesus: Angels

Santa Claus: Covering the world in one night
Jesus: Bringing the Word to all nations

Santa: Bottomless bag of toys
Jesus: Loaves and fishes

PARALLEL ELEMENTS

Santa Claus: Elves
Jesus: Apostles

Santa Claus: Letters to Santa
Jesus: Prayers (especially pledges of good behavior in return for favors)

Santa Claus: Milk and cookies
Jesus: Bread and wine

Santa Claus: Immortal
Jesus: Immortal

Santa Claus: All-seeing, all-knowing
Jesus: All-seeing, all-knowing

Santa Claus: Rewards and punishes behavior
Jesus: Rewards and punishes behavior

Santa Claus: Lives at white, pure North Pole
Jesus: Lives in white, pure heaven

OPPOSITES

Santa Claus: Fat
Jesus: Thin

Santa Claus: Jolly
Jesus: Serene

Santa Claus: Creature of winter
Jesus: Lived in deserts

Santa Claus: Brings toys, luxuries
Jesus: Brings health, spiritual necessities"

(pp. 138-140)



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 03:48AM by steve benson.

I'm doing the best I can to stay out of this debate because both sides have valid POVs.

Still, this sorta bugs me:

""I don't see how. It seems to me that people were celebrating Christmas centuries before the Santa Claus legend started."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,364461,364461#msg-364461

""One psychologist . . . [reported] that children’s belief in Santa Claus “lays the groundwork for later belief in God.”"

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,364461,364585#msg-364585

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that folks went about believing in god and juHEEsus and s**t long before the Santa myth was invented.

Don't know nuthin' 'bout no parentin', Miss Scarlet, but I do knows lots about bein' a kid. Its not the myth itself, but the myth's interpretation and application by parents that causes problems (or not).

I've said many times that there's no such thing as an imperfect parent. Just ask any parent and he or she will tell you. To this day, neither of my parents can be honest with themselves or their kids. I reckon both would be that way with or without Santa.

Santa doesn't lie to kids. Parents do. Just because the vehicle to do so is there doesn't mean parents have to drive it. Let's lay the blame where it belongs.

Santa doesn't exist. Your parents do. 'Nuff said.

Timothy



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 07:35AM by Timothy.

Steve & Timothy,

I have it on good authority (straight from the elves mouth) that you are both on the naughty list!

... I know its my prefered list!

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 07:43AM by Timothy.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 08:33AM by bignevermo.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 08:34AM by steve benson.

good thing ya never fell! :)

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 08:38AM by steve benson.

Have you two been on the eggnog?

I think you suffer from sever tinselitus...

does that count? and I dont like eggnog!

I agree with Benson on many points. I also recognize that mormonism ran much thicker in the Benson household than most participants on this board can fathom. Cheryl's situation was no different. Both suffered the most extreme forms of cult fundamentalism. That they have differing views is a clear demonstration that neither is willing to tow any party line.

Consider Ezra Taft Benson, Steve's grandfather, who lived, promoted and perpetuated a myth much larger and more dangerous than any fat-man in a red suit. The pressure in that particular clan had to be ridiculously intense. I can see Benson getting upset over the Santa thing. Can't begin to imagine how he felt upon discovering his whole life and ancestory had been based on a very huge and largely malicious lie. All I know is that I would likely be pissed as well.

I suspect Cheryl's view is in-line with mine. Christmas was the only day of the year my family could stand to be around each other. Like most parents, my folks completely forgot what it was like to be a kid. Christmas seemed to bring out their inner-child and it was great fun to share the day with them and see them relaxed and enjoying themselves. You know where I stand on issues of faith, Biggy, but I won't deny there was some kind of magic at play. Too bad it was only once a year.

I had turned to atheism just before Benson arrived on RFM. He was by no means an inspiration concerning that decision. He did, however, give me permission to be more outspoken about my religious views. Cheryl and I go back a bit farther. I left the cult because of its sexist and racist views. Cheryl gave me permission to be more outspoken along those very lines. I value their opinions even though I don't always agree. Benson's folks used Santa as a club. For Cheryl, Santa was an escape. Both are valid reasons for their respective views.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 09:18AM by Timothy.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 09:33AM by steve benson.

Even more so than when a thread closes!

Timothy

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,364461,364613#msg-364613

. . . commending you for having no personal investment.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 09:25AM by steve benson.

Still am.

But that doesn't make your feelings, experiences or opinions less valid.

Timothy

wow i cant believe how often that is happening!! :)
in the deleted post...i was going to respond to stumbling... and then decided that my response was not what i wanted to say and that stumbling was just having some fun and it needed nothing additional... you were wrong in that you had no idea what the deleted post said...you just assumed you did...anghhh wrong again! :)

and as i have said before...i do not dismiss your feelings or what you went thru...just realize that not all and i would wager MOST people did not go what you went thru. i dont dismiss peoples experiences or feelings!
just sayin!

. . . who likewise regarded it as initially having been directed at him, since Timothy answered you.

Try following your own trail here, Biggy.

In the meantime, as poster RAG has requested of you earlier:

"Could you please turn down your caps? It interferes with reading, does nothing for your presentation, only makes you appear erratic."

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,357816,358194#msg-358194


Do you remember promising him that you would? It was your "I will" pledge:

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,357816,358207#msg-358207



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 10:33AM by steve benson.

you said:

I agree with Benson on many points. I also recognize that mormonism ran much thicker in the Benson household than most participants on this board can fathom. Cheryl's situation was no different. Both suffered the most extreme forms of cult fundamentalism. That they have differing views is a clear demonstration that neither is willing to tow any party line.

Consider Ezra Taft Benson, Steve's grandfather, who lived, promoted and perpetuated a myth much larger and more dangerous than any fat-man in a red suit. The pressure in that particular clan had to be ridiculously intense. I can see Benson getting upset over the Santa thing. Can't begin to imagine how he felt upon discovering his whole life and ancestory had been based on a very huge and largely malicious lie. All I know is that I would likely be pissed as well.

I suspect Cheryl's view is in-line with mine. Christmas was the only day of the year my family could stand to be around each other. Like most parents, my folks completely forgot what it was like to be a kid. Christmas seemed to bring out their inner-child and it was great fun to share the day with them and see them relaxed and enjoying themselves. You know where I stand on issues of faith, Biggy, but I won't deny there was some kind of magic at play. Too bad it was only once a year.

I had turned to atheism just before Benson arrived on RFM. He was by no means an inspiration concerning that decision. He did, however, give me permission to be more outspoken about my religious views. Cheryl and I go back a bit farther. I left the cult because of its sexist and racist views. Cheryl gave me permission to be more outspoken along those very lines. I value their opinions even though I don't always agree. Benson's folks used Santa as a club. For Cheryl, Santa was an escape. Both are valid reasons for their respective views.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Timothy

i have stated as much in other posts. i kinda feel like his childhood sucked... which is too bad...
just sayin!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 10:17AM by bignevermo.

You wake-up one day, well into adulthood, and conclude that your family, past and present, is responsible for promoting and perpetuating one of the biggest and most damaging lies of all time.

I'd have issues too. As a matter of fact, I do, and I didn't experience anything near what Benson went through.

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 11:01AM by Timothy.

But I did hear that your grandaddy was once president of the Santa Claus Fan Club.

Is that true?

Timothy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2011 11:12AM by Timothy.

and i have empathy for the guy...

i think you can read my posts and get that from me cant you?

what is wanted? :)

some slack cutting?

ok... no more comments on this thread then... :)

I think that having quite so many anti-Santa threads (is it four, now?) is going to scare off the new board members who are questioning or newly exiting the church. Like it or not, most of those people are going to keep the Santa tradition going even if they end up pitching LDS, Inc.

And yes, I know, people can post whatever they want. I just don't think that it gives a good impression of this board to keep beating away at it.