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Posted by: blackholesun ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:11PM

(Warning – this is a long winded theological rant. Read at your own risk)

I think there are some common misunderstandings about the claims that theism makes (in the monotheistic Western tradition). Discussions between atheists and theists often go nowhere because neither side really understands what the other is saying. None of what follows below is particular to Christianity, instead it applies more broadly to the ‘God of the philosophers’ as we Mormons were taught. It’s possible to be a theist and not to hold to any of the revealed religions like Christianity or Islam. It’s possible to be a theist and believe that God is known through reason not revelation. And none of what follows is meant to be an argument for the existence of God. It’s just meant to clarify what theists usually mean by God.

1) The term ‘God’ in classical theology has a particular meaning that rules out almost all the various gods that humans have at some time worshiped whether it be Zeus or the Elohim of Mormonism. What makes God God in classical theology is the characteristic of aseity or self-existence. By definition, so to speak, God must be uncaused or unconditioned by anything else or it would not be God. God would be the only thing that has the property of aseity which is a way of saying that God is the source of all other existence – space, time, energy, the laws of physics, you and me. So to ask ‘who created God then?’ is to misunderstand what is meant by the term God. God is precisely that entity for which that question makes no sense.

2) Some try to argue (ala Dawkins) that if God created our complex universe then God must be very complex and in need of an explanation himself. Again, this is a misunderstanding of what theists mean by God. In fact, in classical theology, God is perfectly simple in the sense that God is not composed of parts and so cannot be broken down into simpler components. God would be the end of the explanatory chain, like how strings in string theory would be the most fundamental reality so that the question ‘what are strings made up of?’ has no answer.

3) The so called First Cause argument for God’s existence does not necessarily require a beginning to the universe. Theoretically the universe could be eternal and God still be thought of as the First Cause in the sense of the most fundamental explanation or causal entity. For example, biological phenomena are based on the laws of chemistry which in turn are derived from the laws of physics. So when I see a an animal move a limb I may say that the limbs move because of the biological properties associated with nervous systems and muscles, which derive from the chemistry of cells, which in turn derive from the fundamental laws of physics. So the laws of physics (if we want to think of those ‘laws’ as real causal entities) are the primary cause of what we observe in animal behavior, even if the biological/chemical/physics phenomena are simultaneous.

4) The universe does appear to have a beginning in the standard Big Bang model of cosmology. Space, time, and energy all came into existence at the Big Bang singularity. Our best current estimate for the age of the universe is on the order of around 13.7 billion years. Now there are various theories out there that try to argue that our Big Bang was not the beginning of everything that exists, like eternal inflation or colliding branes, but for now those theories are just speculation. A theist is perfectly justified in taking the existing empirical evidence and the prediction of general relativity that the universe must have begun in a singularity at face value, and to hold that the universe did have a beginning just as theologians have been arguing for two millennia. As the astronomer Robert Jastrow (who was not religious) wrote in reference to the Big Bang model: "For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountain of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."

5) There seems to be a common belief that every new discovery of science is a blow against the idea of God and pushes God further and further into the shadows. The whole ‘God of the gaps’ thing. And granted there are many religious believers who feel that their God is indeed threatened by scientific progress. But this again, in my opinion, is based on a misunderstanding of what is meant by God. God wouldn’t be hiding in those aspects of reality that have yet to be understood by science. God would the meta-explanation – why science can explain at all and why is there even something to explain. God is equally to be found in those things that we understand, like general relativity and evolution, and those things that we have yet to understand. God would be the reason for why our world is intelligible to us in the first place. When early scientists like Kepler and Newton discovered the laws that govern planetary motion, they didn’t see that as proof against the existence of God – The planets move in ellipses around the sun therefore there is no God! The attraction between two bodies is inversely proportional to the square of their distance hence belief in God is a delusion! – but rather as evidence for a divine mind that gives the world its rational form. They didn’t see it as abolishing the metaphysical need for a creator. Every scientific discovery that further demonstrates the intelligibility and order of the cosmos can be seen as supporting and confirming a theistic worldview. That’s part of the reason why modern science arose in a thoroughly theistic society. The scientists of the early modern period believed that there were laws to discover in nature because they believed in a divine lawgiver. The scientists of the early modern period believed that it was possible for humans to understand those laws because they believed that we were created in the image of that divine lawmaker. Even most of the early Greek thinkers who laid the foundations for a scientific worldview believed in some sort of divine mind that gives shape and form to our world and that in some way we participate in that divine mind since we are rational animals. For the atheist it’s really just a matter of good luck that the world turned out to be orderly and rational, or that we humans, with our limited minds that are a product of blind evolutionary forces, is capable of understanding the universe at its deepest and most abstract levels.

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Posted by: steve benson ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:12PM


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Posted by: kolobian ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:14PM

Writing the existence of your god into the definition of your god is not original. It makes it difficult to take you seriously.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2011 01:21PM by kolobian.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:21PM


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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 02:53PM

hell i thought we all were! :)

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Posted by: rt ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:23PM

Sounds to me like god is the answer to any question you don't have an answer for. And a lazy answer at that.

And what is "classical theology" anyway?

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:25PM

What I read:

1. classic definitions of god are bad
(i.e., everyone else's definition of god is incorrect. Not mine tho.)

2. god is not complex but the fundamental particle
(i.e., god is alpha and in everything. This is nothing new, is it?)

3. models in science = god is the first model
(i.e., god is the thing that makes everything work. This is nothing new is it?)

4. universe does have a beginning, like the bible said
(eh, this is nothing new, is it?)

5. god is the first model and encompassing model of science
(i.e., god is the alpha and omega and what makes everything work. See above)

That said, I see nothing new in what you wrote. And I get the feeling you mistaken theism for deism in most of the points.

Furthermore, the god of the gaps also means you are adding unnecessary baggage onto the models we have of reality. God is not needed if science adequately and parsimoniously explains what we observe.

Let me ask you:

Under your definition of god/theism, why is there not a shred of evidence for your god? Is this deliberate by your god for some purpose?

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Posted by: kolobian ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:27PM


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Posted by: RAG ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:29PM

I give BHS credit for making a careful exposition...but I believe your responses are sufficient refutation.

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Posted by: elitistdnd ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:25PM

A crash course in theism for atheist? Because atheists are unaware of what theism is, right? lol

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Posted by: Naomi ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:30PM

So much of the debate on the existence of God depends entirely on the definition of God. Dawkins was careful to explain that the God he was arguing against was the interventionist God - the one people pray to and expect to get answers from. The 'God of the philosophers' that you describe, from classical theology, is entirely different from this popularly accepted God. It entirely changes the definition of theism and atheism, because whether or not you believe in God depends entirely on what you mean by God. By your classical definition, I believe I would be a theist, although I think Darwin would classify me as an atheist.
The part I'm curious about is, if you see God as the First Cause, what do you understand that First Cause to be? Does it mean that God could actually be the Big Bang? Could God be the laws of the universe, the ultimate laws which cause the laws of physics, which we haven't discovered yet? What about the multiverse theory - would God be the ultimate cause of the entire multiverse, or just our universe?

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Posted by: ronas ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:32PM

"Discussions between atheists and theists often go nowhere because neither side really understands what the other is saying."

Actually I believe many of us atheists were once very much theists. We understand perfectly well where theists are coming from because we used to be one.

You can always redefine god to fit with science. And then when science learns more you can redefine god again. Eventually you relegate god to being so impotent that atheism and deism are essentially the same thing.

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Posted by: Raptor Jesus ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:40PM


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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 02:57PM

i couldnt resist RJ thanks for the setup! :)

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Posted by: Charlie ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:47PM

I think all the lectures and diatribes are silly, nit picking twaddle. And No, I will not define my terms.

I think my brand of theism is best defined by the sort of prayer Colleen Mccullough included in one of her books, "Fortune's Favorites". It went something like,

"O, great (insert name here) or whatever name you otherwise desire to be known by, of whatever gender you prefer, should you desire to be addressed in this manner by or in whatever manner you prefer we ..."

I think that there is a god or gods, according to whatever definition any individual might prefer that can be addressed in any manner that individual believes will enable communication and that that god or gods will respond or not as that god or gods feel appropriate. Individuals may in fact posit a god or gods and then totally ignore them. Gods in return may pay attention to, repond to or ignore humans or other animal, plant or mineral as they desire.

Arguing over definitions and meanings concerning that which might or might not exist is a masturbatory exercise at best.

I have viewed this board as a place where people can come to find both information and emotional support in their persuit of freedom from Mormonism. The bickering and back biting over some of these concepts remind me of being mormon. GODs forbid!

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Posted by: kolobian ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:50PM

In fact, my mormon experience was the exact opposite. No debate was allowed on anything. Ever.

Trying to stifle dialogue on issues that are directly relevant to the recovery process is what seems mormon-y to me.

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Posted by: RAG ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 01:59PM

There are other threads, or start your own, on what you think is important.

Or, do you find freewheeling discussion disturbing? If so, you might reflect on what that means as well.

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Posted by: EssexExMo ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 02:51PM

when I read someone saying that theists (who for 2 millenia have been saying the universe is 6,000 years old) have the moral high ground, because scientists accept that the universe had a beginning................well, it just makes me sad that someone can actually get their brain around that concept.

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: December 15, 2011 03:04PM

I came to the conclusion that god doesn't exist through my own observation and reasoning. I've never read anything by Dawkins or Hitchens and I do not and will not subscribe to the nonsense promoted by the likes of Austin Cline and others who seek to organize a cause that, in my mind, is just as worthless as what it seeks to derail.

No one told me that god doesn't exist. I figured that out on my own. On the other hand, everyone told me that god does exist. I found that to be a dilusion all on my own.

The fact that god doesn't exist is all I need to know. However, should you provide any evidence to the contrary, I'll be more than willing to reconsider.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2011 09:03AM by Timothy.

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