I'm sure you bumped into folks that claim to have the need to have a religion to be good. And not only that, some even go to the extent of claiming that religion is necessary to keep people in line.

What's your take on this?

I'm wary of people who claim this...I think it's a very sad view of why one should "be good."

It's the same reason I intensely dislike the Santa Clause myth-
Parents teach their children that as long as they're good, Santa will bring them anything they want. If they start acting bad around the end of the year, this threat is common.
More often than not, a kid is going to get what he or she asked for and realizes, "Hey, I was 'bad' sometimes, but I still got what I wanted!"

I think the world would be a much better place if we decided to be good, kind, honest, just for the sake of doing the right thing. I f- up as much as anyone, but I don't maliciously hurt people. I have an inherent distrust of the general population.

itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm wary of people who claim this...I think it's a
> very sad view of why one should "be good."
>
> It's the same reason I intensely dislike the Santa
> Clause myth-
> Parents teach their children that as long as
> they're good, Santa will bring them anything they
> want. If they start acting bad around the end of
> the year, this threat is common.
> More often than not, a kid is going to get what he
> or she asked for and realizes, "Hey, I was 'bad'
> sometimes, but I still got what I wanted!"
>
> I think the world would be a much better place if
> we decided to be good, kind, honest, just for the
> sake of doing the right thing. I f- up as much as
> anyone, but I don't maliciously hurt people. I
> have an inherent distrust of the general
> population.


I love Santa Claus. Stop dissin' him! :D

Ron

itzpapalotl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I think the world would be a much better place if
> we decided to be good, kind, honest, just for the
> sake of doing the right thing. I f- up as much as
> anyone, but I don't maliciously hurt people. I
> have an inherent distrust of the general
> population.

You mean, we should be good for goodness' sake? ;)

Bwahaha! I totally set myself up for that! And yes, that is exactly why people should be good. :)

itzpapalotl Wrote:

> ...I think the world would be a much better place if
> we decided to be good, kind, honest, just for the
> sake of doing the right thing...

Itzpapalotl, you restore a little of my mostly-decimated faith in humans.

*APPLAUSE*

I think people might follow certain rules because of their religion such as the WOFW or keeping holy days, but I don't think it influences basic moral behavior all that much for most of us. People can pretty well justify doing whatever they like and I think our families and basic personalities are more likely to influence us.

I agree with itzpapalotl on this one. It is sad to think you would need religion in order to be good.

It is ridiculous to think that before Moses talked to a burning bush that people thought that killing, stealing, and bearing false witness were OK. Religion cannot claim the foundation of ethics or rule of law or morality. Furthermore, it is sad to think that (some) religious people don't understand that it is possible to love others without a big, scary, invisible man telling you to. Thus, you have those who will argue that there is nothing keeping atheists from just killing or hurting whoever they want to. As if removing God from the equation will lead you to hate your neighbor!

What is troubling, and goes hand in hand with this sentiment, is that people believe we need religion to define what it means to be good. Without religion, there would be no issues with homosexuals marrying each other. In essence, religious folk would say, "See, without religion to tell us that gay marriage is wrong, there would be nothing to stop those people from getting married!"

Hmm, so maybe the more religious you are, the less likely you are to allow people to do something that is perfectly okay. That's not good.

Oh I heard this from my daughter's Mormon friends. And they kept saying Mormonism is a good way to raise a family. Like without it a family has no chance. Give me a break!!! I think these are words they heard all their life and since NORMAL people don't talk that way it really sounds weird to the general public.

We may believe religon helps us to be on a path of goodness, but we don't tell everyone else they need to be religious and certainly don't say YOU MUST GO TO MY church to be saved. Mormons are nutty. I know many people who are not at all religious- maybe they go to a Christmas service and that is all- but they are kind, caring, warm, and serve others in ways many people never do. They raise their kids to have good common sense, healthy lifestyles and to respect all people. Mormons certain have no respect for others. Is that being religious????



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/18/2010 11:28PM by honestone.

toward the people within the group. Not so much toward people outside the group.The evolution that needs to happen is religions become inclusive and are good toward everyone.

And BTW, I'm not a member of that church, but I attended for about 4 years. Really lovely people.

are too stupid to think for themselves and too lazy to remember to treat others well.

If religion were to be somehow suddenly outlawed, why, all those suddenly irreligious Christians would be running amock pillaging, plundering, raping and murdering all over the country! If it takes religion to keep anarchy and chaos from destroying the world then, I say, WE NEED RELIGION! AARRGGHH!!

OK, in all seriousness, bona dea and seymour (above) are right on target. Basic morality is something that everyone understands regardless of religion. Good people will be good no matter what and criminals will be criminals, religion notwithstanding.

America is arguably one of the most overtly religious nations on earth yet, statistically, we have more people in prison, on parole or on probation per capita than any other country. All that religion doesn't seem to have done much good.

Anyone that thinks they need to turn their personal sovereignty over to someone else because they lack the self-control and discipline to run themselves, is a pathetic slave.

and others by participating in a religious community. Sharing ideals of how to treat one another well, opening ourselves to others and letting others open to us, asking ourselves along with others about how we are doing, and participating in ritual can all be very healthy. There isn't much of that in Mormonism and in other closed-off groups but many groups are much better and make a real effort that pays off in happier people.

they claimed that without the threats of religion they would murder, rape, pillage, anything and everything.

That did sound sad. Maybe it is true in some cases, but that's what we have laws for...

... its wrong to murder, rape, steal, etc., have some serious issues.

Timothy

My mom always tells me "the church is perfect, but the people arent"
buttttt... if TSCC teaches polygamy, racism, sexism, and homophobia, then I guess it's really you need religion to be bad.
Or maybe it's really good and the whole world is misconstrued.

So if the world is wrong, of course you need religion to be good.
:|

Are really fucking scary. I'll second Tim's statement; people that need religion to keep them from doing horrible things have a lot of other problems that need to be addressed.

I maintain that 98% of the folks in our society are basically good. Unfortunately, it's the 2% that gets all the "press".

It's peoples' basic goodness that enables religion to survive and thrive. Christian churches provide an outlet for that goodness and religion has succeeded over the ages in convincing the world that they (the churches) rather than the people are the sources of goodness and right-living. Religion is a parasite, a tick, that has attached itself to humanity and is claiming credit for peoples' basic, natural goodness.

I think the reason people beleive that religion is important, is because there are a lot of people who would say,

"Well, if the devil, and hell, and evil don't really exist... Then NOTHING is really bad or wrong."

I personally don't feel its a good idea to convince the entire planet that there is no such thing as bad or evil.

I know a lot of people say "Well why cant' we have good and evil established, without god?"

Well... Its because there has to be a REASON why good is good, and why bad is bad. Yes, even without the existance of God, going out in public with a knife and randomly stabbing people in the neck is bad. But if the whole world suddenly didnt' believe in God, and you knew somebody who was angry at everyone, and wanted to do that, what would you say to them?

It would be awfully hard to explain why wrong is wrong, without there being some greater force that defines right and wrong. The conversation would probalby go something like this:

You: "Why would you want to stab people in the neck?! You'll be killing people!"

Them: "So?"

You: "But... That's wrong! That's bad! That's cruel and evil!"

Them: "Who says?"

You: "Well, decency and the law, for one thing!"

Them: "Well who decides what's decent? And why is killing illegal anyway?"

You: "Well, you have to think how other people feel. How would you like to be stabbed in the neck?"

Them: "But it won't be me, so it doesn't matter. As long as its not me, I don't care."

You: "You're gonna get arrested... Go to prison..."

Them: "Not if I do it at night, wear a mask, and disappear. Nobody will know who I am!"

You: "Its not so much about getting caught... Its still bad and wrong!"

Them: "Aside from a stupid rule made up by a bunch of controlling law makers-- again, WHO SAYS?"

You: "I say! Everyone else says! Nobody wants to get stabbed. Everyone you kill will somebody's whole world. Think of the lives you will destroy."

Them: "Who says we have to feel sorry for each other?"

You: "Every life is special and should be cherished."

Them: "Bull crap! We're nothing. We're blobs of meat and bones! No soul. No importance. No greater scheme. We're just a random accident among bilions of planets. Then we die and vanish. That's it. Nobody's important."

You: "No, there's a lot more to it than that..."

Them: "Oh really? Explain."

You can easily see how religion may have started from a conversation like that. And if someone could suddenly prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was no god to the whole world, conversations like this would be comming up everywhere, whenever someone wanted to do something "bad". Maybe not as bad as killing people, but deffinitely a lot of other things. People who you know to be "decent" today, could think it all over and decide that here really is no right or wrong. I really think the world would be much worse than it is now.

Its like the conversation that took place in the movie "Men In Black":

Agent J: "Why the secrecy? People are smart, they can handle it."
Agent K: "A PERSON is smart. PEOPLE are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it!"

As if we don't already have enough people who don't care about the value of life. Believing in a REASON and a FORCE behind good and evil does have its place.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2010 01:24AM by melissa3839.

I understand your reasoning. But it is possible for people to restrain themselves from killing each other, absent religion.

Here in the South, everyone's got religion. We've also got some of the most dangerous cities: New Orleans, LA; Jackson, MS, Birmingham, AL; Memphis, TN. (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/americas-most-dangerous-cities.html)

We've also got 9 of the most 15 dangerous states (http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/04/05/most-dangerous-states-crime-rankings-for-2010/)

These same states also have some of the highest rates of regular church attendance (http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060502/news_lz1n2thelist.html)

America, in general, considers itself religious, with 76% identifying themselves as Christian (http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf)

Compare the murder rates of Christian America (5 per 100,000) with the murder rates of relatively atheistic/agnostic Scandinavian countries (Norway 0.6 per 100,000; Sweden 0.92; Denmark 1.01) or Japan (.44), which identifies with Shintoism and Buddhism.

(Country murder rates compared at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

Religion that teaches people not to kill because God says we should value one another, oddly, isn't quite as effective as other belief systems. And this isn't even addressing the murders that are done in the name of religions, even when that religion specifically asks its adherents not to.

Your argument makes sense intuitively. And maybe it is not a good idea to remove religion entirely. But I honestly believe people can effectively learn to live in harmony when we realize we truly depend on each other, rather than on an invisible being, to make it through this life. Empathy, sympathy, love, and understanding is what will keep us from killing each other. Being told we should value one another because a being we can't really comprehend or verify the existence of told us to just doesn't seem to be the way to go.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2010 03:03AM by seymour.

Very interesting to say the least

Yes, and there are still other stats to look into, such as the incarceration rates of less religious countries vs the more religious ones.

I'm too lazy to drudge up all the info that might relate, but I thought it was interesting that melissa uses murder as an example, and statistically it just doesn't seem that religion discourages that particular bad choice.

I guess it is tempting to think that if religion is not informing your decisions, or giving you a moral compass, then nothing is. Apparently, that does not seem to be the case.

Saymour wrote: "...I honestly believe people can effectively learn to live in harmony when we realize we truly depend on each other, rather than on an invisible being, to make it through this life. Empathy, sympathy, love, and understanding is what will keep us from killing each other. Being told we should value one another because a being we can't really comprehend or verify the existence of told us to just doesn't seem to be the way to go."

The Mormon church doesn't preach, teach, or practice unconditional love. I did learn all about Satan from the Mormons, though.

This subject reminds me of a few years ago, talking about school with my then 11-year-old daughter.

She was complaining to me that some of the people in her class at school were always were always talking about religion.

She (like nearly everyone on both paternal and maternal sides of the family) is an atheist.

Her best comment was:

"They're so stupid... They say 'If you don't have a religion, how can you judge right from wrong... Duh, you don't need a God for that!"

IMPORTANT NOTE:

We live in the eastern suburbs of Paris (a place called Montreuil-sous-Bois).

The religion of the people in question was, of course, ISLAM.

I bet it still sounds familiar, though!

Stupidity is the same the world over.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2010 06:55AM by Soft Machine.

Soft Machine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> "They're so stupid... They say 'If you don't have
> a religion, how can you judge right from wrong...
> Duh, you don't need a God for that!

Exactly. If there is a God, that's why God gave us a BRAIN.

Yes, I've heard it. Some people fear they are so weak on their own that without "the" church they'd be living in a van down by the river, addicted to drugs, a sex addict, or have no friends.

The problem is, they look outside of themselves for approval and strength. It's not 100% bad to have a support system. But it is pathetic when a church is one's only support system.

The funny thing is that the people who are afraid of becoming heroine addicts are possibly abusing prescription meds, and they think of themselves as so unloveable that nobody would want to be their friend unless they had met at church, or been assigned to visit them the last day of the month by the bishop.

People who need religion for morality are children. They fear punishment and expect rewards, just like children.

Empathy is the true cause of morality. We don't hurt other people because we know how they would feel. We care for animals because we can put ourselves in their place. We are kind to other people because that's how we would want to be treated.

I don't believe most people would become sociopaths if they stopped believing in God. They have just been taught that they should behave because of his eternal vigilance. With that logic, all atheists and agnostics should become serial killers, but we don't because we would feel terrible about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2010 08:07AM by axeldc.

The study of human religion is the examination of the fossil-bearing social strata of past ages. The mores of the anthropomorphic gods are a truthful reflection of the morals of the men who first conceived such deities. Ancient religions and mythology faithfully portray the beliefs and traditions of peoples long since lost in obscurity. These olden cult practices persist alongside newer economic customs and social evolutions and, of course, appear grossly inconsistent. The remnants of the cult present a true picture of the racial religions of the past. Always remember, the cults are formed, not to discover truth, but rather to promulgate their creeds.

Religion has always been largely a matter of rites, rituals, observances, ceremonies, and dogmas. It has usually become tainted with that persistently mischief-making error, the chosen-people delusion. The cardinal religious ideas of incantation, inspiration, revelation, propitiation, repentance, atonement, intercession, sacrifice, prayer, confession, worship, survival after death, sacrament, ritual, ransom, salvation, redemption, covenant, uncleanness, purification, prophecy, original sin -- they all go back to the early times of primordial ghost fear.

Primitive religion is nothing more nor less than the struggle for material existence extended to embrace existence beyond the grave. The observances of such a creed represented the extension of the self-maintenance struggle into the domain of an imagined ghost-spirit world. But when tempted to criticize evolutionary religion, be careful. Remember, that is what happened; it is a historical fact. And further recall that the power of any idea lies, not in its certainty or truth, but rather in the vividness of its human appeal.

Evolutionary religion makes no provision for change or revision; unlike science, it does not provide for its own progressive correction. Evolved religion commands respect because its followers believe it is The Truth; "the faith once delivered to the saints" must, in theory, be both final and infallible. The cult resists development because real progress is certain to modify or destroy the cult itself; therefore must revision always be forced upon it.

Only two influences can modify and uplift the dogmas of natural religion: the pressure of the slowly advancing mores and the periodic illumination of epochal revelation. And it is not strange that progress was slow; in ancient days, to be progressive or inventive meant to be killed as a sorcerer. The cult advances slowly in generation epochs and agelong cycles. But it does move forward. Evolutionary belief in ghosts laid the foundation for a philosophy of revealed religion which will eventually destroy the superstition of its origin.

Religion has handicapped social development in many ways, but without religion there would have been no enduring morality nor ethics, no worth-while civilization. Religion enmothered much nonreligious culture: Sculpture originated in idol making, architecture in temple building, poetry in incantations, music in worship chants, drama in the acting for spirit guidance, and dancing in the seasonal worship festivals.

But while calling attention to the fact that religion was essential to the development and preservation of civilization, it should be noted that natural religion has also done much to cripple and handicap the very civilization which it otherwise fostered and maintained. Religion has hampered industrial activities and economic development; it has been wasteful of labor and has squandered capital; it has not always been helpful to the family; it has not adequately fostered peace and good will; it has sometimes neglected education and retarded science; it has unduly impoverished life for the pretended enrichment of death. Evolutionary religion, human religion, has indeed been guilty of all these and many more mistakes, errors, and blunders; nevertheless, it did maintain cultural ethics, civilized morality, and social coherence, and made it possible for later revealed religion to compensate for these many evolutionary shortcomings.

Evolutionary religion has been man's most expensive but incomparably effective institution. Human religion can be justified only in the light of evolutionary civilization. If man were not the ascendant product of animal evolution, then would such a course of religious development stand without justification.

Religion facilitated the accumulation of capital; it fostered work of certain kinds; the leisure of the priests promoted art and knowledge; the race, in the end, gained much as a result of all these early errors in ethical technique. The shamans, honest and dishonest, were terribly expensive, but they were worth all they cost. The learned professions and science itself emerged from the parasitical priesthoods. Religion fostered civilization and provided societal continuity; it has been the moral police force of all time. Religion provided that human discipline and self-control which made wisdom possible. Religion is the efficient scourge of evolution which ruthlessly drives indolent and suffering humanity from its natural state of intellectual inertia forward and upward to the higher levels of reason and wisdom.

And this sacred heritage of animal ascent, evolutionary religion, must ever continue to be refined and ennobled by the continuous censorship of revealed religion and by the fiery furnace of genuine science.

the question is, does one need religion to be good? The answer is still "NO!" There can be no doubt that religion has contributed a lot of good throughout history. The argument could also be made that religion has done a lot of harm. But the point of this discussion is that for an individual - you or me - to be a good person, a moral person, does not require religion or any of its many gods. People were good and moral long before religion was invented and they can be just as good when religion becomes irrelevant.

Please re-read seymour's replies above. He's got lots of good stuff to say.

I always thought that was a strange way of thinking. Doesn't God know our hearts? Doesn't he know if we are a good person at heart or whether we are only good because we know that's the only way to get into heaven?

Who would god choose to enter? The person that is good regardless of religion or the selfish person that is good only because they think they have to be in order to get that heavenly reward?