Okay, this is the RfM site.

So everybody who is still in the Church (but having doubts) or in recovery from the Church should recognize and understand the Mormon mind-set.

On this site we vent, learn, ask questions and answer some when we can.

Mormonism is like an emotional roller coaster ride. Going up and down all the time while going around and around to end up back where we started. Exhilarated by the adrenalin rush during the ride, a little dizzy and weak-kneed once the ride is over. Some of us asking ourselves, it that all I get for my money (and time) to be flung, plummeted, and taken for a ride to nowhere?

Here is what I have come to understand while venting, learning, healing my wounds and growing up a bit:

Do not be surprised when Mormons act like Mormons.

Be surprised when they don't!

Getting angry at Mormons for Mormon behavior while it is a natural knee-jerk reaction, is only hurting yourself. For your own physical and mental well being, turn that anger loose as soon as possible. Anger produces hormones which over time can be damaging (stressful) to your body, I believe that is a real Word of Wisdom!

For those that want to confront TBMs with the truth, did you ever think that is exactly what they think they are doing, confronting you with (their) truth?!

If you draw a line in the sand, they will try to drag you back across it. They have to, because they are Mormons.

If you attempt to show them the truths you have discovered, they will come back the the "standards" offended, wants to sin, deceived by Satan--they have to, because they are Mormons.

It is hard not to want to (save) a family member, but really what are you saving them from?! An imaginary belief! A form of religious belief that has no power other than that which we as members give (gave) to it. Isn't it their right to believe just as it is your right to not believe?

You will more than likely never get a real TBM to respect your rights even as it is written in the LDS creed for them to do so. (Articles of Faith)

You can love them, maybe even pity them, but YOU can not change them. A person only has the power to change themselves, and to do that they have to want to change.

You can still love them. If they are unable to return love to you...well, you can not control that.

You know that TBMs are "my way or the highway", there is no middle ground. Hopefuly you are not dependant financially (employment) on TBMs. If so, you will have to either make changes there or if that is not possible you will have to be "like the grass, and bend with the wind" so that you will not be broken.

Whatever course you take, make it an intelligent one for you. One that does not adversely affect you (and or your household) in any way.

Rmember that you cannot have an intelligent discussion about religion with a Mormon. Both parties must be intelligent to have an intelligent discussion. Their understanding of Mormon religion is based on faith, not intelligence. You can not argue with faith. Faith is a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2011 07:35AM by rowan.

Two choices.

1. Accept how mormons are and shrug them off or go along with their peculiar behaviors.

2. Create boundaries and don't let them intrude beyond.

I hear what you're saying, rowan, but in my experience the following would be why those who suggest the cult is not a cult and beg other RFM participants to be more respectful toward the cult do so:

"You know that TBMs are "my way or the highway", there is no middle ground. Hopefully you are not dependant financially (employment) on TBMs. If so, you will have to either make changes there or if that is not possible you will have to be "like the grass, and bend with the wind" so that you will not be broken."

I don't live with and love mormons nor am I financially tied to mormons so I can openly express my true feelings to them or anyone without fear of retribution. If that makes mormons or those closely tied to mormons uncomfortable, I don't really give a s**t.

You're confusing anger with frustration. Frustration will, indeed, eat a person alive. Anger, on the other hand, is very much like the old phrase "necessity is the mother of invention" in that it is often the first step toward solving a given problem. Frustration leaves us feeling helpless. Anger leads us to take action.

I'm "angry" with the cult in regard to its expressed militant homophobia. So much so that I've been heavily involved with organizations such as the HRC and ACLU to put an end to DADT, DOMA and so-on. Though I'm not pleased with the pace of progress, it feels really good to know my efforts, though born of anger, are, in fact, making a difference.

I'm "frustrated" with the Dallas Cowboys. There isn't much I can do to straighten-out their woes, so I find other forms of relaxation and entertainment that don't make me want to use the cat as a ball for field goal practice.

Big difference.

The cult and its followers share a long history of blatant racism, sexism, homophobia and criminal activity. The KKK has a long history of blatant racism, sexism, homophobia and criminal activity. I stand vehemently opposed to such activity no matter what guise its promulgators employ. Those who are frustrated with the cult, its followers and their activities are more than welcome to give-in. But please don’t stand in the way of folks who are willing to step-up, speak out and make a difference.

To sin by silence when we should protest makes cowards of us all.

Timothy.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2011 12:25PM by Timothy.

Timothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I stand vehemently opposed to such activity no
> matter what guise its promulgators employ. Those
> who are frustrated with the cult, its followers
> and their activities are more than welcome to
> give-in. But please don’t stand in the way of
> folks who are willing to step-up, speak out and
> make a difference.
>
> To sin by silence when we should protest makes
> cowards of us all.
>
> Timothy.

Fuckin A! Well said.

It's called Rise.

but the refrain is

Anger is an energy, anger is an energy.

very powerful words.

give it a listen sometime.

Sure, Mormons are going to act like Mormons, but accepting that, and reshaping our brains and lives to accommodate that reality, still puts the burden on us while they get to continue on being happy pests.

We seek understanding and sympathy here from like-minded people. We seek anchors in reality so, like the staff of an insane asylum, we know we're not the crazy ones. We need a F-ing break.

Yes, it is better for one to let the Lord's people move forward unencumbered. Do not put obstacles in the way of his chosen children as they move through this life pushing and pulling their handcarts full of joy due to the restored gospel. Do not plant the seeds of apostacy in their hearts, thus making them weary so that they do not perform service to the Lord. Although He has made their burdens light, the faithful must not be distracted from paying a full and honest tithe, fulfilling all assignments, callings, temple work, and Cleaning The Restrooms (CTR). It is not up to you to change the hearts of man as this is done by the Holy Ghost. And by God's 50,000 missionary Army. And by the countless faithful on Facebook and the associated Mormon Ads.

Again, I would like to express my gratitude for your kind, peaceful words. May the Lord bless you and Brother Joseph judge you worthy as you enter into our Heavenly Father's presence. This, I humbly say to you, even in His name, Jesus Christ, amen.

Oh, Tommy Monson, you are so deliciously funny. I could almost spread you on a cracker and eat you!

To those whose fur I stroked backwards....whooooa!

The "essence" of my topic was the Mormon mind-set and that you can not battle the faith of a TBM Mormon. That you can not use an intelligence arguement to reason with their faith. That you can not use intelligence or knowledge against faith. Faith is belief with the absence of knowledge. If you know, faith is not factored in. Faith is not knowing, yet believing. That you should not be surprised when Mormons act like Mormons. That you should be surprised when they don't!

To Timothy: I am also a member of several worthwhile organizations NAACP and the ACLU just to name two. I am not a member of any religious organization/church.

I deny that I am confusing anger with frustration. (See meanings below) In fact, I am neither. As for my views on the rights of people being denied because of their differences...I am opposed most strongly to denying anyone of their rights.

You wrote>I hear what you're saying, rowan, but in my experience the following would be why those who suggest the cult is not a cult and beg other RFM participants to be more respectful toward the cult do so:

I never said that it was or was not a cult. I did not beg other RfM paraticipants to be more respectful towards the cult. I did not say anything about The Church, I spoke of Mormons, TBM Mormons, specifically Mormons that are in a person's life. Family members, bosses, work associates, etc.--not the Church or the Church's Leaders.

You wrote>I don't live with and love mormons nor am I financially tied to mormons so I can openly express my true feelings to them or anyone without fear of retribution. If that makes mormons are those closely tied to mormons uncomfortable, I don't really give a s**t.< Does this mean that you think that I am a Mormon? That is so funny!

I do not see in what I wrote where I was concerned about >mormons are those closely tied to mormons uncomfortable< (you were a little unclear there, but I think that I got your meaning)

Good for you that you are not tied to Mormons, but I can not see in my topic where I gave any consideration for the feelings of the Mormons. My topic had nothing to with their feelings. The only time I used the word "respect" was:
>You will more than likely never get a real TBM to respect your rights even as it is written in the LDS creed for them to do so. (Articles of Faith)<

I also do not think that a religion, any religion should be involved in politics. I am a firm believer in seperation of church and state...but that is still not what my topic was about.

If you read anger or frustration into my words then you were reading your own emotions, not mine. The term for reading your own emotions into another person is called "projection".

frustrated, frustrating, frustrates
1. a. To prevent from accomplishing a purpose or fulfilling a desire; thwart: A persistent wind frustrated my attempt to rake the lawn. b. To cause feelings of discouragement or bafflement in.
2. To make ineffectual or invalid; nullify.

frustration (frù-strâ´shen) noun
1. a. The act of frustrating or an instance of being frustrated. b. The state of being frustrated.
2. Something that serves to frustrate.

anger (àng´ger) noun
A strong feeling of displeasure or hostility.

As I see it, not only did you not follow my Topic,(and we are all guilty of that at times), but you alluded or made direct and indirect reference to statements that I did not make and sentiments and emotions that I did not make nor do I have, and then did battle with those non-existant statements, sentiments and emotions. That is no way to treat another member on this board. Do not unjustly flail me to further your own agenda.

You wrote>Those who are frustrated with the cult, its followers and their activities are more than welcome to give-in. But please don’t stand in the way of folks who are willing to step-up, speak out and make a difference.< Where did I mention "giving-in"? How does what I wrote "stand in the way"?

Did you read "giving-in" in the following: > If so, you will have to either make changes there or if that is not possible you will have to be "like the grass, and bend with the wind" so that you will not be broken.< That means when a person is in a vulnerable position that is not the time to take up arms and fight. You fight when you are in a position of strength...that is if you want to win. Still, fighting is not what I was writing about, there I was referring to protection of one's self and household against the kind of vindictive behavior you can expect from TBMs.

Your closing statement:
>To sin by silence when we should protest makes cowards of us all.<
The subject "we" is not in agreement with the object "us" as modified by "all".

.........and Really, you should not paraphrase Lincoln, as he said it perfectly.

"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men." Abraham Lincoln



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/30/2011 02:06PM by rowan.

I can do so only to a point. I.e.:

You can never de-convert someone from their faith. It is something one must do for oneself.

Discussing religion with faithful Mormons is pointless.

I agree with these sentiments. I think what others up-thread are inferring from your post though, is to pity Mormons their ignorance, but in the name of getting along, you are going to have to accept that they will continuously try to trespass your boundaries.

So, for example, not making a spectacle of yourself at some Mormon family get together by playing the ex-Mormon missionary is good advice, how should one feel if they are shunned and rejected by their family for leaving the church?

Should these people just accept this is standard Mormon behavior and just suck it up and not try to defend their personal boundaries?

Never confronting the individual bad behaviors of Mormons is not a good solution. It's a recipe for disaster.

For me, I take the method of if they leave me alone, I'll leave them alone. But if they get up in my business, I am going to put a stop to it and explain to them how inappropriate the behavior is.

To be fair, your OP was very specific. But the implications are bigger than what you alluded to.

elee:

You wrote>I agree with these sentiments. I think what others up-thread are inferring from your post though, is to pity Mormons their ignorance, but in the name of getting along, you are going to have to accept that they will continuously try to trespass your boundaries.<

I do not understand how anyone could infer (deduce) that I meant what you stated above.

Accepting knowledge that "Mormons act like Mormons" does not mean that you accept the the bad behavior without contest.

I wrote:
You know that TBMs are "my way or the highway", there is no middle ground. Hopefully you are not dependent financially (employment) on TBMs. If so, you will have to either make changes there or if that is not possible you will have to be "like the grass, and bend with the wind" so that you will not be broken.

Whatever course you take, make it an intelligent one for you. One that does not adversely affect you (and or your household) in any way.

Whatever course you take...
...how does this make an inference of never confronting!

I have seem people lose their jobs and some their homes because of TBM vengeance. This means that those who are vulnerable financially to a Mormon must be careful in how they go about dealing with a Mormon.

And yes, you are correct when you wrote that my OP was very specific, and yes the implications (something to be understood but not expressed) are bigger BUT I did not allude (hint) at anything...remember I was specific. One cannot be specific (precise) and allude (hint) at the same time.

When I posted my Topic, I did so to share an insight. I never expected to have my Topic distorted and then used to verbally flail me with. That is why I wrote my rebuttal. I believe that in this site's rules that we are instructed to "discuss and debate", but not attack. I felt like I had been attacked by Timothy. To be fair, after I wrote my rebuttal, I searched and read many of his posts and this just seems to be the way that he sometimes expresses himself.

First, it would be wise to get out of mormon mindset. To "disagree" is not to "attack"

It would also be to your benefit to understand where you are and to try not to proceed from false assumptions.

In response to poster elee, you wrote:

"I do not understand how anyone could infer (deduce) that I meant what you stated above."

That much is obvious.

In my neck 'o' the woods we have an old saying. If one person calls you an a**, forget about it. If five people call you an a**, you best get a saddle.

Although you make valid points in your original post, the gist of said post is exactly what elee noted; to pity mormons their ignorance, but in the name of getting along, accepting that they will continuously try to trespass your boundaries.

Take it as an "attack" if you will, rowan, but I don't agree that placating mormons or other religious nut-jobs is the best medicine under any circumstances.

And speaking of medicine:

"Getting angry at Mormons for Mormon behavior while it is a natural knee-jerk reaction, is only hurting yourself. For your own physical and mental well being, turn that anger loose as soon as possible. Anger produces hormones which over time can be damaging (stressful) to your body, I believe that is a real Word of Wisdom!"

Please explain how getting angry at mormons for doing stupid s**t like banding together in a militant fashion to ensure the passage of Prop H8 is a "knee-jerk" reaction. I'm also curious as to your qualifications in the areas of physical and mental health. Here's some potentially bad news. Every moment of every day sees increased damage to a given body. I very much doubt that turning loose anger aimed at mormons is going to extend anyone's life to a measurable degree. You're just pulling gnat s**t out of pepper to make a highly questionable point. Better get accustomed to the fact that folks round these parts don't buy bulls**t anymore.

Your topic was not distorted nor was it used to attack you. Here's another point I simply don't agree with:

"You can love them, maybe even pity them, but YOU can not change them. A person only has the power to change themselves, and to do that they have to want to change."

I submit that this site alone has changed the mind-set of more than its fair share of mormons. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm all ears. That "change" can be attributed to one person who had the balls to stand-up and say "F**k This S**t!" to the cult and its die-hard adherants.

Lastly:

"The term for reading your own emotions into another person is called "projection"

Indeed, it is.

'Bout time to get that saddle, don't you think? ... Or don't you?

Timothy



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2011 10:26AM by Timothy.

rowan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> And yes, you are correct when you wrote that my OP
> was very specific, and yes the implications
> (something to be understood but not expressed) are
> bigger BUT I did not allude (hint) at
> anything...remember I was specific. One cannot be
> specific (precise) and allude (hint) at the same
> time.

I don't believe you as the author have control over what readers infer from your statements. It is what it is. Think of it as expanding the discussion instead of trying to force everyone down your favorite rabbit hole. There is also no need to define your terms in parenthesis. LOL!


>
> When I posted my Topic, I did so to share an
> insight. I never expected to have my Topic
> distorted and then used to verbally flail me with.
> That is why I wrote my rebuttal. I believe that
> in this site's rules that we are instructed to
> "discuss and debate", but not attack. I felt like
> I had been attacked by Timothy. To be fair, after
> I wrote my rebuttal, I searched and read many of
> his posts and this just seems to be the way that
> he sometimes expresses himself.

Welcome to the board! I disagree that you were attacked. Your ideas were challenged, certainly. They were also expanded upon by other posters because your original ideas were extended to broader, but still logical, conclusions. That's kind of how it works around here.

More specifically, this topic comes up frequently and it always generates these kinds of responses. We all walk a fine line between maintaining good relationships with our still TBM family and friends while also trying to maintain a healthy sense of self with boundaries we do not allow TBMs to trespass.

Instead of getting pissed off about the responses, just go with it! Better to have your ideas challenged then to have your post sink to the bottom of the page without anyone bothering to respond to you.

Most of us here were once believing Mormons, to some extent or another. Most of us once believed things on faith that we now do not. How many of us knew the truth and yet believed on faith anyway?

I can't speak for anybody else, but let me state now clearly that I only believed on faith when the volume of contradictory truth known to me was very small. When I learned the full truth, it set me free.

I believed on faith that JS could translate "reformed Egyptian" only when I didn't know about the BoA, or that reformed Egyptian isn't even a language, or I'd heard about the Kinderhook plates, or I knew that the 11 witnesses never saw the plates with their physical eyes, or that there were a number of highly plausable sources for the material in the BoM, or that JS didn't need the plates to translate, that he put a rock in a hat, that over 3000 changes have been made to the text, despite it being the "most correct book" etc etc

I believed on faith when I did not know the truth. AND THE ONLY REASON I DID NOT KNOW THE TRUTH WAS BECAUSE NOBODY HAD SHOWED ME WHERE TO FIND IT! That, and the fact it was all labeled anti-Mormon...

So I disagree that we shouldn't bother trying to set TBMs free. It may well be that 99% are not ready to listen, but the other 1% are intelligent and ready to know the truth, if only somebody is willing to show them.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2011 07:39AM by rowan.