Here's some good reasons to reconsider why or why not you may fit the roster with the rest of the "Mormon apologists" in the big wide world. If you answered "YES" to at least one or more of the following of the list of questions below, there's a good chance you still show sympathy at the lowest, pity for and support your fellow Mormon whether he/she is naive to their own teachings or not.

Meanwhile you might ask yourself if you care enough of his/her welfare by sharing the truth with him/her, or would you rather withhold valuable information from someone you care about in order to keep a relationship with that person risking the difference between a superficial or genuine relationship, even if it means holding back something you know to be true that can and will (over time) bring harm to that person you truly care for. Mormonism is like a slow burning pot, a lot of people don't know what they're in for until it's too late.

Me, I'd rather tell the truth and expose what ever it is that has great potential to bring harm unto others so they at least will have been warned and given an opportunity to choose from that point to stay or get out before it's too late.

1. Do you often say I support Mormons in their choice to believe in their Mormon church doctrine and their leaders, as long as they support me in my choice to believe what I want.

2. Do you often excuse them and make justifications for the way they carry out their actions toward others while deeming it harmless well intended services?

3. Do you find yourself saying, "Let them do what ever they want as long as they're not hurting anyone in the process."

4. How would you like it if someone else confronted you and told you everything you believe in was a sham as he/she ripped apart ever thread of what you believe in?

5. Have you heard the saying by many members of the Mormon church, "you can leave the church, but you can't seem to leave it alone?

I think it depends on if you want to preserve the relationship with a TBM or not. If you don't care, then share whatever you want to. If you do care, then you have to use your judgment, which often means saying nothing.

The truth about the church is *not* difficult to find at all. I found this site by doing a web search under the term, "Mormon." This website is always on the first page of Google hits, usually within the top five. It is hard to ignore. If members are the least bit curious, they can find the information.

The church encourages members to not read unapproved materials. That alone should raise a red flag. Which leads to your fourth point. When I was in college, I took a class on Jesus and the New Testament. It was in that class that I learned about the mythic elements surrounding the story of Jesus. Those points didn't alarm me at all. I was fascinated by what I was learning. It made sense to me. It didn't destroy my faith, it just gave me a deeper understanding of it.

The truth can withstand scrutiny. Mormons are taught to fear materials which question their faith, and are taught to fear fragile testimonies. Why? There is no information out there that can't be sourced and verified if necessary. If Mormonism is the "true church," why does it hide so from material that challenges it?

summer Wrote:
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> If Mormonism
> is the "true church," why does it hide so from
> material that challenges it?


Exactly! They want to keep all their ducks in a row, all their precious and naive puppies and kittens accounted for as long as they can before they grow into common sense adult minded individuals who choose to have a mind of their own and do further research. It's their best hand at dealing their card of Mormanipulation.

But expect, and prepare to live with the fall out. Don't expect people to thank you for what they perceive as peeing on their floor.

Susan I/S Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But expect, and prepare to live with the fall out.
> Don't expect people to thank you for what they
> perceive as peeing on their floor.

Urine "is" however, sterile and clean, just smells funny. in fact urine helps poisonous stings subside from sting ray stings. probably bee stings too. They may see me as urinating on their floor as an outwardly rude gesture only because they're only seeing it from a visual outward form of expression. If they consider the contents of it's healing properties, they'd reconsider and maybe even thank the person peeing on the poisonous ground they stand on either at that moment or later on once they've realized how sick their religion and belief has made them over a period of time.

*facepalm*

I guess that would mean only Raptor god exists, since you said "no god" haha! Kidding. Just trying to have a little fun at "nobodies" expense. Just trying to lighten the mood a little. You're entitled to your opinion about me. Hope you feel better.

I was confused.

But jokes are sometimes hard for me to get.

My funny sensy got busted.

When I was 25 and finally dating someone who seemed marriage worthy. RMs didn't seem to like me much because I was too independent.

So--I find out this guy is gay. The church told me it was my job to save him.

It took me YEARS and a failed marriage to figure out that THIS WAS HIS JOURNEY and it wasn't my job to save him.

I have a TBM daughter. She definitely knows how I feel about the church as she used to be anti herself. Don't think she doesn't know about the bad stuff. I tried to talk her out of going back and it only caused more pain.

She has the right to make her own journey JUST LIKE I DID. I'm not here to "save" anyone again. It isn't my job. When they need me, I am here for those people I love. They know how I feel--but unlike mormons, it isn't my job to FORCE people to be just like me.

I never mentioned or used the word "FORCE" or "JUST LIKE I DID" or "BE LIKE ME". Just mentioned planting a seed and letting them know the truth because you care. that's all my goal is, to tell the truth, let them evaluate and measure what they just heard and leave it at that. Say if someone you love and care for doesn't know any of the stuff you know, wouldn't you want him/her to know sooner than later before it's too late and they've already been close to 90-100% brainwashed? and too difficult to reach by then? That's been the case with some of my relatives.

I sure wish someone had approached me in my own family or close friend before I decided to start going back to the Mormon church over 15 years ago. The closest person who ever told me the Mormon church was a scam and a fraud, was a Christian reverend who stopped me in a Kinkoes parking lot and rambled on and on and on to me about how manipulative the Mormon church was and how I should come check out his Christian church. This happened a couple years before I started going back to the Mormon church mind you, so I wasn't too offended, just annoyed how he kept me there for nearly an hour! when I had to get back home and work on school projects.

Sometimes I wished I would have kept that mans church calling card and checked out his church at least once before making the decision to go back to Mormonism. Then at least I would have given myself a more solid decision then just jumping on the first thing that sounded good to me. I was a sucker for outward appearances back then and sometimes with some things I still can be. Which is why I'm careful to ask more questions before I jump into something.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2012 03:33PM by freshperspective.

you have to know when to back off--and it isn't a matter of being honest in a relationship.

Just this past month--since my daughter came home from being away almost a year. Her little mormon mothers have let her down yet again. She was just crying to me about it this morning. We don't discuss mormonism. If she talks about it, I listen, but she also knows that I read and post on this board (even if she doesn't like it) and she knows I'm in an "adulteress" relationship (my husband actually left me 16 years ago TODAY), but I'm not divorced.

So--you can plant seeds, but then with those you love, you really have to just be there. When she went back, my daughter thought I was the biggest loser this side of Palmyra! She just left me a note last night telling me how much she admires me.

yes I have to agree with everything you said in this post. plant a seed then leave it be and watch, listen and tend to "IF" the person asks for nurturing. Glad to hear you can have an open relationship with your daughter and care for one another regardless of your beliefs you support. Not many families can say that, especially goes who've become so indoctrinated to the point where they will dismiss any kind of open communication or relationship with a friend or family member who doesn't believe as they do or at least support them, like a few have ostracized me from their inner circle. Thank God not all members of my family are going to the Mormon church still and actually get it, yet they still will never fully understand the trenches I've walked through to get here. I try to explain different things to different family members not involved in the mormon church but used to be, and they're kind of scratching their heads or they don't care to hear it or imagine the pain I went through. I know it's not my job to "save" people, but if I could just hint them in on the ins and outs of something, then i feel I've done something mentionable.

to get to this point and there will continue to be bumps along the way--but I learned early on in my journey that giving info that wasn't wanted didn't work.

I also come from parents--especially a dad--who wasn't over the top TBM. My parents also had watched what I had been through. I was their most religious child--and my leaving shocked them. My parents were far from perfect, but they listened. My dad actually was the one who "ordered" me back to church. He felt that it seemed to have been good for me--so when he would bring it up again, I would tell him a little more of my experience. Luckily I had free thinkers for parents. AND my over the top TBM aunt has "discovered" me since my parents died. She used to preach and no longer does. When her husband ordered me back to church, I told her just what I thought.

I have had much more positive influence by being patient. I have life experience to share--especially with those with gay family members (like my aunt above).

I personally like Pista's list below.

cl2 Wrote:
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> I personally like Pista's list below.


I heard everything you said and your patience and tolerance is to be commended. I'll have to go back and post another response to Pista's "list" since I passed those up thinking she was just reposting the list I made with a comment she made below. thanks for pointing that out.

1. Do you feel that anything a Mormon says or does is wrong and evil simply because it came from a Mormon?

2. Do any attempts by an ex- or non-Mormon to genuinely understand the motives of individual Mormons make you angry?

3. Do you frequently use hyperbole and loaded terms, then blast anyone who does not take you literally?

4. Do you think anything less than 100% hatred for an entire group of human beings who happen to belong to the same church is apologetic?

5. Do you think that having heard a phrase proves anything at all?

While urine is typically sterile, it can become contaminated by disease -- just as good people can become contaminated by hatred.

Pista Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While urine is typically sterile, it can become
> contaminated by disease -- just as good people can
> become contaminated by hatred.

(Here's how "I" see it.)

It's the bacteria and elements (aka indoctrination) in the air that make the urine (message) contaminated with disease, not the urine (message) it's self. If you don't clean up afterward ( make use out of what you just (heard/learned) and just let it sit there and fester, not listening or paying attention to what's going (message given) on the floor or where ever, then of course the Urine (message) will appear/become foul and diseased because you've done nothing with it. Choose to clean it up and throw it away, or use it as an antiseptic to heal some wounds. What you do with the Urine (message) and how it is managed will make a difference on whether it will become useful or not.

Pista Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1. Do you feel that anything a Mormon says or
> does is wrong and evil simply because it came from
> a Mormon?


It all depends on their intentions, how they try to use "the word of God or the prophet" to manipulate the situation they present themselves with, Which I have seen happen many times with many leaders and members in the church, because they have been brainwashed and indoctrinated with their teachings they whole heartedly believe, without considering the possibility that there are other ways to live and believe in this life.
>

> 2. Do any attempts by an ex- or non-Mormon to
> genuinely understand the motives of individual
> Mormons make you angry?


No, that's their choice and I genuinely understand why Mormons believe how they do as well. I went through it myself for 20 years, and "To me" it's all a big pyramid scheme game they play to gain power and control over many peoples lives at other peoples expense, while they put on the major sugarcoat and frosting to make their church believable and true with lavish stories, temples, clothes, appearances, activities etc to appear attractive to a lot of unaware individuals.

>
> 3. Do you frequently use hyperbole and loaded
> terms, then blast anyone who does not take you
> literally?


No, just pulling the facts out that I took the time to research that does in fact exist under sometimes a thin veil and other times a thick veil.

>
> 4. Do you think anything less than 100% hatred
> for an entire group of human beings who happen to
> belong to the same church is apologetic?
>

Hatred is a strong and definite word. No I do not "hate" people what they choose to do or believe, I just disagree with what they believe, especially after knowing the deciet and manipulation that lies behind the motives of certain teachings and principals only to control people and their hard earned money through fear programming through the way they present their tithing pricipal's they preach to their members. Example: in D&C "burn at the stakes in the second coming if you don't pay your tithing ring a bell?"


> 5. Do you think that having heard a phrase proves
> anything at all?
>

It all depends on if you'v done thorough research on the phrase that's presented, why and for what purpose it's being presented with.

Would you like to answer the list I made, or are you gonna pass and this was your way of setting your argument that had little to do with the questions I posted for the user to decide to answer if they wish to.

Before anyone comes unglued, I am only making a statement here, I am not being critical of freshperspective's ideas. I often do this when I read something. Do a Word "search and replace" to see if or how it changes what I read.


I changed Mormon to Republican and church to party.

Here's some good reasons to reconsider why or why not you may fit the roster with the rest of the "Republican apologists" in the big wide world. If you answered "YES" to at least one or more of the following of the list of questions below, there's a good chance you still show sympathy at the lowest, pity for and support your fellow Republican whether he/she is naive to their own teachings or not.

Meanwhile you might ask yourself if you care enough of his/her welfare by sharing the truth with him/her, or would you rather withhold valuable information from someone you care about in order to keep a relationship with that person risking the difference between a superficial or genuine relationship, even if it means holding back something you know to be true that can and will (over time) bring harm to that person you truly care for. Republicanism is like a slow burning pot, a lot of people don't know what they're in for until it's too late.

Me, I'd rather tell the truth and expose what ever it is that has great potential to bring harm unto others so they at least will have been warned and given an opportunity to choose from that point to stay or get out before it's too late.

1. Do you often say I support Republican in their choice to believe in their Republican doctrine and their leaders, as long as they support me in my choice to believe what I want.

2. Do you often excuse them and make justifications for the way they carry out their actions toward others while deeming it harmless well-intended services?

3. Do you find yourself saying, "Let them do what ever they want as long as they're not hurting anyone in the process."

4. How would you like it if someone else confronted you and told you everything you believe in was a sham as he/she ripped apart ever thread of what you believe in?

5. Have you heard the saying by many members of the Republican party, "you can leave the party, but you can't seem to leave it alone?

I'm sure this can be done with just about any word exchange. Mad Libs is a fun game.

Allowing the deluded to continue deluding themselves hardly makes me an apologist. Any sense of duty I had toward "saving" anyone when it comes to religion was gone when I left the church.

It doesn't come out of a desire to respect what they choose to believe, but an acceptance that they don't want to hear what I know any more than I want to hear what they "know."

This discovery of lies is new to me....I'll admit that I do wonder if it's possible that the Church is true even if it's not perfect and there's fraud. That's an apologist thought no?

If they stay away from me I can live and let live. Problem is if they refuse.

Nothing about this list suggests that a person is an apologist. In fact, this seems like a list that you created to try and make other people who you dislike seem like apologists. Once you can claim that they are apologists, you can even more easily knock your own strawman over.

Besides, you are using the term apologist in a pejorative way, and it shouldn't have to be that way.

Who said i dislike anyone? I may not agree with someones actions and the way they choose to treat me or others poorly, that doesn't mean I would go out of my way to write up something like this to pin point someones stand point. I wrote this list because it "was" well thought out on a deeper level that some or many may not have considered. The way I see it, anyone who dismisses or supports any Mormons motives and actions is only condoning the very reasons Mormons go out of their way to do the things they do. The way I see it is anyone who sit's around and watches any kind of verbal, spiritual, mental or emotional abuse to go on, whether the perpetrator believes they are helping or not, the person sitting around watching as it happens, is in one way or another a part of that scene and condoning what is going on. I choose to stand up for what is right and not just sit around and allow someone to harass another whether they think their intentions weren't harmful at all. Here's what's going on, not everyone here on this board or out in the world has some "ulterior motive" and out to get people. Some ideas are just spoken to simply strike up a conversation to see where others views are. It's the same as taking a poll for voting. Everyone's entitled to their own views and opinion. As far as I've seen, everything you insinuated has not happened here, so your point is invalid with flying accusations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2012 06:02PM by freshperspective.

"As far as I've seen, everything you insinuated has not happened here, so your point is invalid with flying accusations."

Sure...whatever you say. Keep telling yourself that.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, are you saying that every person who supports any Mormon's action is an apologist for the bad things they may or may not do as a Mormon?

Do you think anyone who supports what Mormons do, is condoning what they do? Or do you see a difference between the two?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2012 10:41PM by freshperspective.

You've stated that snipped of wisdom three different times with three very different meanings. Until you clarify, I don't think I could give a real opinion.

Based on exactly what you said, yes, of course. If someone supports a Mormon going out and buying a sandwich, then they condone that person buying a sandwich. Of course, that has nothing to do with apologetics, much like your list.

Why do you refuse to answer my question? I worded it very specifically. If you don't agree with my wording, again, please clarify.

And break it down then, starting with question number 1 and so on. Maybe we can sort this out together. Tell me what parts of each of the questions you're not seeing how I'm connecting those to people who let them be=condone=support=apologetics.

I'm not really interested in doing the line by line refutation thing.

Ok. Well can you see where my thinking is coming from? The way I see it, If I saw someone about to jump into a pit of snakes, and that person could not see what was down there, and only I knew what was in that pit, I'd want to warn that person, and hope that person would trust what I was saying was true and check into it before making the plunge. For those who have already jumped in the pit, wouldn't know the difference of themselves risking their saftey or not, since they've become more conditioned to that environment. I'd say to them, don't say I never warned you. I never would condone or support what I know and feel to be a pit of poisonous snakes, just waiting to get bit and continue getting bit by their poisonous doctrine until you've become used to it and immune to anything else that comes your direction. That's kinda how I see it, now that I've known for quite a while the damage it can do.

The word is apologist. I have heard it used aloud by a Catholic catechesis director. However I have not heard it used as a noun, I heard it used as an adjective, a modifier, in the phrase apologist literature/ apologist books.
Then in a book store, to my surprise, (it was a Catholic book store) I read the word in a different form, it was something apparently like this: apologetics, as in the phrase: "beginning apologetics I" "beginning apologetics II" and "beginning apologetics III" They were little yellow 9X11 paperbacks with shiny tag covers, red blocking one level I possibly, and reminded me of level piano practice books. uh, from the outside.

Is the word "apologesis" something anyone was ever heard? A formal noun form of "apologetics"

Now where the heck did this come from? Is it referring to apologizing for your beliefs to others? I mean it seems to be used as a verb in reverse within a comparable logic form.

somebody google is: what is the word history of apologetics, apologetic. What is the word origin? What are the connotative meanings? Which beliefs or logics is being apologized for? is it the act more defining logic? or declaring someone else's ideals something that need to be apologized for? Is it being strong and argumentative or really polite and apologizing or apologetically going into a nice correciton fo others gettgin them to apologize ? What is going on-

who is apologizing? is a logic form? is it a rhetoric form? is it a logical argument form?

Is it something one does, or acts, or says, or a speaking script style, or is it unsaid, by act, quiet. I think I'm feeling sick. I think it would help clarify the connotations of apologizing, compared to being an apology or um no being apologetic which seems not being into apologetic s. so it seems ironic. yeah. That's it.

possible someone can find a sentence demonstrating the different meanings as a noun, a modifier. and a maybe a verb. and clarify it with sentence examples. Also it would help if someone found a logical diagram like a thinking chart which would help clear the argument forms. And that might help clear the um the different connotations and people's different expectations.

thanks. because its interesting.

I LIKE this. I like words. I like logic very much. I like words espeically. & I can't clarify what the word apologize and how it compares with apologetic which sounds sorry but isn't in this logic form it seems to contradict and yeah. Be ironically meaning- that's where I'm loosing the concept.

does it mean you are especially polite and loving apologetically caring - or something in a nice logic (kind of awkward)
or arguing with others
or getting them to apologize.

SOmeone clarify what is the object of the verb when the word apologetically speaking refers to this,
maybe the object of the verb is shifting with the word meaning.

Well whatever is going on, the connotative meaning is terrifically different.

& I'm definitely curious. Its fascinating- and it impacts the meaning and responses to the original post. I dont' think I share the same vocabulary with you and I can't figure out how to use it to express myself.

what is the tone- what is the connotation & what is the tone?
Is this an act of love, ie apologetically helping the confused so they don't die ?
or is it a tone of mean ness, apologize now for not knowing how to think the right way (like commanding or expecting it)

like the Crusades in the middle ages were warlike was that apologetics or beyond talking, or trying to get others to apologize? or would that be more like confession or pastoral counseling, where someone was in love helping part of the group fit in or be less intrinsically internally conflicted- by helping their behavior or thoughts or acts conform with what they said they thought at X church, like couples counseling with a pastor.

what is the tone? is there a set tone? or can there be mean ness?

or is the logic of it- meaning beneath the tone or exchange or human experience, one meant well= one intended love somehow maybe so in that, it was apologetically.

Very interesting. it is an area of theology. Find out if you can, what emotional tone the logic takes. And find out if there are ideals historically in this area. It would be interesting.

Apologetics as far as I researched is to protect the rights, interests and beliefs of a certain group.

Then that partially explains the problems with your questions. You seem to think that "apologetics" simply means to generally protect the rights of a group. It does not. It is a formal term which refers to the staunch defense of the truth of a belief system, usually referring specifically to Christianity. Quite different. It is generally used in contrast to the scientific method, which examines evidence to logically reach a conclusion. Apologists begin with a conclusion and attempt to make the evidence fit.

If you will take the time to take your research a bit further and reach an agreeable definition of the terms, I will answer your questions as you requested and explain why I asked the questions I did.