I srsly don't remember this being brought up here before...

LDS males 'Peter Priesthood' and "Walking Wallet" are little more than puppets of the female dominated cultures they inhabit.

Despite all the Wallflower items, It's really women who run the show.

By being default caretakers of the children, they make most of the non-monetary decisions, Most of the discretionary spending decisions.

ChurchCo accommodates them by giving them lip-service and 'Special Honors': Sheri Dew, Julie Beck, C.L. Pearson, etc.


One MINOR example: in most homes, the women, by default, get to decide the decor. This is done to accommodate her 'because she spends more time at home'. Overwhelmingly feminine in the majority of cases.

Man Cave? you're lucky if you get a Den, most settle for a workshop in the garage. Otherwise, a guy 'has' his workplace, from the cab of a locomotive, to a cubicle next to Walter Mitty. Some poor guys workplaces have been featured on 'Dirty Jobs', and are Disgusting.



just sayin'



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2012 06:55PM by guynoirprivateeye.

Most women create the home decor, morg or not. They are the ones who are interested in it.

It's a unspoken contract. She gets to decorate the house. Men get to have access to their children and pretend to raise them too. And have sex on their birthday and anniversary.

Awesome deal guys!!!

Life outside the cult is much more balanced and awesome.

In my TBM family, the men totally dominated the women. My brother was allowed to abuse me, without punishment. The men were honored for going on missions, and for their priesthood callings. I got sick of hearing, "Honor the priesthood." and "Obey your father/husband."

My husbands picked out the furniture for my houses--but most of it, including our piano, came to us for free, from various family estates. I worked, but my husband(s) were completely in charge of the finances. I had to ask permission to buy extras, such as a birthday cake, or new undershirts for the kids. My husband would run his car out of gas, and leave it empty in the garage, and take my car. I had to buy and maintain my own car. My husband never lifted a manicured finger to help around the house. I mowed the lawn and pruned the trees and shoveled gravel and laid bricks.

I think Mormon men become soft and feminine because they are spoiled and pampered like Divas! Many Mormon men are narcissistic, and that makes them seem like girly-men. They strut, and primp in the mirror, like women. The Mormon women I know cater to their husband like a Geisha.

I have realized since my exit from the morg that there are parallel cultures all over the place.

While I came from a family and ward where the men dominated in a truly patriarchal way, my husband came from a matriarchal culture where the women really treated the men in much the same fashion that I saw the men treating women as I grew up.

Neither of us believed the other until we had spent some time with each others family of origin.

Quite the eye opener.

The non-submissive males either leave or figure out how to work the system to become its alpha males.

Mormonism promises beta (and lower) males they will one day become alpha males ruling over their own kingdoms -- if they just submit to the alpha males now. What a great scam.

The alpha males enlisted the help of the females by selling them on the idea they need an alpha male in order to be happy now and in heaven. But since there's a severe shortage of Mormon alpha males, the women need to push the beta males -- by whatever means possible -- into becoming like the alpha males.

i am so stealing this!

srsly - the best explanation of mormon culture ever

Wow! Cut to the quick. I'm stealing it too.

Sounds like the FLDS, except the beta males are completely removed from the herd.

Wow straymutt, that was an impressive explaination of the church. I am going to have to think about that for a few days and then hope to use it in my future arguements with TBMs. Well said.

I whole-heartedly agree that Stray Mutt has got right to the point here. Beta males are either used for cannon fodder or are promised advancement if they just become alpha.

The alpha female is a nasty Mormon who badgers her husband to obey and lead at the same time. If he's a demented alpha whacko, he goes along. If he's a hopeless beta, he either flees or kills his wife.

He could try to eke out a desperate living while bearing his wife's insults, but there's always a rope and a stool.

I was just talking about morg emasculation with some people this week.

Standard disclaimers must apply here--masculinity is too narrowly defined usually, and should be expanded to include traits involving nurturing, creativity, etc.

I'd disagree that this is about matriarchy. The emasculation is largely carried out by other men, not women. It is men who crack down on masturbation in talks and interviews and YM classes. It is men in SLC who set up entire sets of curriculum and support manuals to suppress the (statistically verifiable) almost universal consumption of porn, etc. When did anybody ever have a meaningful, adult discussion about even non-controversial topics related to physical and mental health for males? Testicular self-exam instructions? REAL information about masturbation? Sexual health and STIs?

There is participation by women in this, of course, but I don't think it originates with them. I griped in another post recently about a lecture I've been told my mom is gearing up to give me, a gay and resigned 47-yr-old man, on the evils of porn. In what world is that not emasculating?

Nobody thinks men get a bad deal in Mormonism more than I do. But it isn't the women that are emasculating the men. It is the church itself. Grown men who can't choose their own underwear? That's the church's doing. Also...

Feeling shamed as a teen for masturbating. Not being allowed to form normal boundaries because you are expected to divulge your most personal information to a man you don't know on demand. Not getting to make your own decisions or choices in life but having to fit into a mold that was chosen for you. Not being able to display a normal, healthy interest in the opposite sex (or the same sex if that's who you really are). The two years mandatory breaking down of the individual (a.k.a. a mission) that the men are forced to endure. Being taught there is value in that Mr. Roger's voice that so many Mormon men speak in - or that sing-song GA cadence. Having so many traditional male activities dissed by the church like watching football on Sunday. The church stealing so much of your time. Higher-ups overruling you with your own family - especially if you leave the church. Having to kow-tow to higher ranking priesthood leaders. The women being taught to love you for who the church thinks you should be and not for you really are. Also, the church teaching women to expect an unrealistic ideal in a man. Geez, the list just goes on and on.

Women are told what they should think they want in a man when they're in the Young Women's program. Then they try to cram the guy they marry into that mold. I also agree with Stray Mutt's explanation -- right on the mark.

in the non-ferret world, being told when and where you have to go to church (no choice whatsoever) is considered weird.

But in the context of this thread, it's feedlot weird. You want to eat? You go when and where we tell you.

Is this addressed in 'The psychological effects of Mormonism'?
If it isn't, IT SHOULD BE!

Don't some men stick to their findings about life (slightly) more teniousaciously?

Like all, this also applies to women, but: When a man determines ANYTHING that might be considered a conflict with Mo teachings or culture... even the Unwritten Order of Things...
Doesn't mormonism pretty much cut their legs off?
are men (PH holders) more of a threat when they have a different view/thought/opinion?

that was my experience anyway.

Here is how I realized that mormon men were emasculated...I can imagine them in temple garb. Seriously, if I try imagining most non-mormon men in temple outfits, I can't. However, I am able to imagine mormon men in those outfits. Sure, they look stupid in my imagination, but I can imagine it.

Man maybe the head, but women are the neck that turns the head. In Mormonism, women want to be guaranteed their place in the Celestial Kingdom, so they have a full time job keeping their husband "worthy"! :-)That's how it works!

The temple garb is very masculine - it's similar the Mason's outfits.

Men used to wear really fancy clothes in centuries past. Especially rich ones!

There maybe a few men who are emasculated, in the LDS Church but that's rare in my experience and observation.

I think people mistake the "minister-religious-voice" (speak softly, etc. so as not to offend), for being emasculated.

I can't recall one LDS man I knew personally that I would consider emasculated in my four decades of experience with them.

My complaint was the level of arrogance, condescension, and lack of ability to treat women with equality and fairness that I experienced. Too many had their "halo askew" as I often said!

What is it they say: authority corrupts, absolutely authority corrupts absolutely. Something like that! I saw plenty of that!

Having come into Mormonism as a convert, I saw the same kinds of behaviors in other religious men in other churches.

I don't care what anyone says, those aprons are NOT masculine

"The temple garb is very masculine..."

i'm not sure that words means what you think it means...

i've felt masculine when wearing suits/uniforms

i've felt masculine when wearing pads/helmets for sports

i've felt masculine when wearing gear for outdoors adventures or outdoors work


i felt a lot of things while in the temple - but i would never describe my feelings while looking at myself in the celestial room mirrors all decked out in the robe/apron/silly hat combo as 'masculine'

i bet most guys would agree with me

grubbygert Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
If you were a Mason, you would probably have a better understanding of my comments. That is the basis for it. Besides, many older costuming in the years past was certainly not very masculine in my view: tights, fancy coats, slippers, etc.
>
>

you said, "The temple garb is very masculine..."

that's pretty easy to understand - mason or not

i'm a male, i've worn the mormon temple garb, and i disagree with what you said

(and apparently i'm not alone)

Temple garb masculine???

If your definition is that it had a zipper in the front, then by all means.

Otherwise, when I was in the temple, I felt for the first time ever that the term "fruity" applied--to every guy there. Silly and ridiculous are hardly acceptable synonyms for masculine.

And yeah, guys dressed "fancy" in the past, but for some reason, none of the real "studs" these days are wandering around in Elizabethan collars.

If you can make somebody wear that outfit, you can make them do anything. It's called a control tactic.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2012 03:12PM by blueorchid.

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Temple garb masculine???
>
> If your definition is that it had a zipper in the
> front, then by all means.
>
> Otherwise, when I was in the temple, I felt for
> the first time ever that the term "fruity"
> applied--to every guy there. Silly and ridiculous
> are hardly acceptable synonyms for masculine.
>
> And yeah, guys dressed "fancy" in the past, but
> for some reason, none of the real "studs" these
> days are wandering around in Elizabethan collars.
>
> If you can make somebody wear that outfit, you can
> make them do anything. It's called a control
> tactic.

Well said. The temple outfit is nutty and cultish. Definitely all about control.

As a nevermo who spent a lot of time in SLC, ya the tscc cuts something off. And yes, we did talk about it. It wasn't a long discussion. It was usually something along the lines of "these guys don't have balls."

It so extreme and so obvious from the outside. No man would ever submit to the things mormon men submit to. Ever. Except to get laid. Then once that's done, you get your sack back.

Emasculated? Castrated!

It might be rooted in the polygamy thing in which males dominate others. If you're in the hierarchy dominating other males is like shooting fish in a barrel since the leadership is a loyalty cult in which there is absolutely no forum to air your grievance with leaders no matter how legitimate it might be. You're absolutely at leadership's mercy within the context of the organization.

The other thing is that females have a tendency to "feel the spirit" more so they're getting more "guidance" from the Holy Ghost, Inc. than you if you're the sincere person that really wants to believe but isn't as emotional. You can have a tendency to think they're getting it, but you're not.

Throw in all the guilt Moism piles on you to demoralize you some more and that can put you at a real disadvantage dealing with a woman who is "feeling the spirit" all the time and on top of that may might lean towards narcissism anyway. Believe me, it happens.

I don't if know I ultimately fell for it. In some ways my disbelief may be less of an issue for my controlling TBM wife than my refusal to bend to her will.

Mormonism stole my manhood for a long time, even after I was out of the cult. Surprisingly my wife respects and likes me much better as a real man who stands up for his needs/wants than the wimp I was when I was a TBM. And I like myself a lot more now too.

Women in Mormonism definitely are the victims of mysogeny on many levels. However, this also has a negative flip-side for men. When women must live their lives vicariously through the men (and their children) the men and children in the family sometimes become puppets of the women. The women in such cases try to shape the careers and personalities of their husbands to be what they themselves wished for their lives. My wife was that way until she started to break the TBM mold and find herself.

Give me a strongwilled, independent woman any day. Woman need to live, spread their wings, and guide their own lives. Mormonism, fundamentalist Islam, fundy Christianity, and orthodox Judaism are all screwed up in their treatment of women. Everyone suffers in such a jacked up system.

The church does a number on both men and women. The joke in my family about the men that are still members is that their wives carry their balls in their purses. But at the same time the women on the pedestals can't be real either or they will fall off the pedestal. It is sad to say that even though I like my still tbm brother, I really don't have much respect for him. The whole thing is not healthy because nobody can have truly honest (as in this is who I really am and what I really think and feel) relationships.

DEFINITELY. It's one of the reasons I had to leave.

It's odd - in some families, the church makes males more dominating (perhaps they pass down memes from prior-generation Mormons). But in others (who seem to get a different spin on the doctrine), it makes them the most submissive door-mat on earth. Simply put - my life would have been miserable (as it was) if I had continued doing what the church wanted me to do.

My dad was a JackMo until I was 7. One Sunday (and I remember this VERY clearly) my mom took my youngest brother in the hall and left me and my 5 year old brother in Sacrament Meeting, expecting us to listen. We got playing with each other, made noise, and (horrors!) the Bishop's Wife had to come sit with us! My mom was SOOOOO embarassed when she found out that she dragged us home after Sacrament Meeting (we missed Primary that day) and SCREAMED at my dad that this was it, he was going back to Church, she wasn't going to do this anymore...

I wish my dad had stood up and said that us kids could stay home with him on Sundays and Mom could go to Church in peace....but that didn't happen. Instead he became uber TBM and eventually a member of the bishopric.

To this day, my dad has ONE room in the house he paid for that is his. He and mom don't eat the same kinds of food (mom is a health nut, dad likes pop tarts and Pepsi) so he still hides his Pop Tarts in his one room like a teenager, or keeps them at work. I'm sure he only goes to church because Mom tells him to--and she's commended all the time for "saving" him. I feel bad for him.

By contrast, my nevermo DH and I are very independent of each other. We each have a shift work job so we don't eat together every day, keep our money separate (I don't feel right spending money he made, and I'm sure he feels the same way about the money I made) The downstairs in the house is my shop for my business, so I let DH hang his antelope and elk heads in the living room. He paid for the house, so he can (within reason) do what he wants to it. I give him some guidance--such as the pink floral wallpaper in the kitchen has to go--but if he said he loved it, I would leave it. He had the house before we were married, and I always tell him its HIS house because HE pays for it (I pay for the vehicles--I titled one in my name and one in his, but since he paid for the house, I pay all the vehicle expenses)

I wouldn't want a man that does my every bidding and looks to me or the church for instruction instead of thinking for himself. DH and I are a partnership. Maybe that's why I never dated LDS guys in high school. I wanted something more.

Interesting topic; As a young TBM from Utah I saw some pretty weird stuff that emasculated men all around me. Clerics abuse of their position in business, sexual relations and in giving misguided advice to both men and women in the name of God. Very rarely did I see any man stand up for his family in these situations. On the contrary I watched people grasping for reason and in the end give up the fight.
The emasculation of the MM (Mormon Man) begins at a very young age with the pressure of being baptized at 8 and then obtaining the priesthood at 12. If you do not feel that these are good ideas, the social consequences of non-conformance are very high. This continues to the missionary stage of life and through adulthood.
As adults the MM commits all he has (including his family) to the LDS Church. (Not to Christ, and don't tell me they are the same because they are not) At this point you have given away all rights to protect your family. You have given away one of the most masculine rights you can claim as a man. The right to protect and lead your family based on your relationship with God. Your relationship with Christ will be defined by the Church. Your worthiness as a father/husband will also be defined by the Church.
If your life conforms to LDS teachings for all your days then lucky are you. However if there are any issues that do not....power struggles…abuse...business dealings...politics...etc. Then the church will tell you where to stand, how to behave and how you should feel, just like they did when you were young. Thank goodness there are women in this world who want more from their men.

While I agree that the church emasculates men, I disagree that it is because they are subservient to women.

Let's look at really happens. Mr. Bond is your typical manly man. He holds down a steady job, performing in a small government job that while important, largely goes unnoticed, and where he is totally expendable to the larger bureaucratic means. Mr. Bond, works long hours, but enjoys the occasional martini in order to relax, and his hobbies include such manly activities as gambling, shooting, and driving luxury sports cars. It should be noted that despite the expense of these hobbies, Mr. Bond has found a way to incorporate them into his life, without them becoming an undue burden to either himself or his job.

Mr. Bond has a long term friendship with a female co-worker, his immediate supervisors secretary, but has managed to keep a professional distance. He has however been known to enjoy the company of young women from time to time. Mr. Bond is a typical masculine male.

Now add religion. Under religion, Mr. Bond is not allowed to be himself. He is no longer allowed to drink, or gamble, and he is being pressured into settling down with a woman. Knowing that they are wrong for each other, but seeing few other potential long term partners, he settles down with his bosses secretary, but the stress of his job, and the loss of outlets to relieve stress cause a lot of pressure in himself, which leads to tension in the relationship.

Mr. Bond's former job, which involved lot's of traveling, is abandoned so that he can be closer to home and his responsibilities. Instead, he takes a job in a research department working under a long time friend, who we shall call Mr. Q. Mr. Bond hates his new job, and this causes further tension in his relationship with his new partner.

In effect, he goes from an interesting red blooded male, to an emasculated office drone.

I just don't think it's women running the show.

You're pitting raising children, staying home, and decorating the house against:

Men writing all the lesson manuals
Men speaking for 90% of General Conference talks
Men controlling ALL financial and budget decisions in the church
Women promising to obey their husbands in the temple, without the opposite covenant made
Men holding ALL major and local leadership positions in the church, while women are in charge of... other women, and the children
Male bishops holding interviews in rooms alone with young girls and grown women, without the opposite ever happening

I just don't think it's even close. I understand all the arguments about women nagging their husbands to be the best priesthood holders possible, but it's definitely not women running the show.