This person is definitely quite educated and intelligent. Usually I can hold my own, but I think I am getting my ass kicked! She's extremely condescending!! Here is our exchange:


Condescending Mormon chick:

As we have become more secular, we have lost a force for public and personal virtue.

The Liberal solution to that is ever higher forms of regulation in personal and public matters. It's the only way to enforce "goodness". Unfortunately, it ultimately leads to tyranny.

However, from whence does the atheist derive his virtue? Ultimately, all standards of good and bad, right and wrong derive from religion and the founders knew that.

I'm not talking about mixing business or government with religion. I'm talking about *individuals* using religion as a standard for personal behavior that us reflected in how they interact in business and government. I do not mean to imply that there have never been charlatans or hypocrites, but than in general, when you have a citizenry that checks its *personal* behavior based on religious standards or morality, you have less inclination to force people to be "good" through government regulation.


ME:

To Condescending Mormon Chick: "From whence does the atheist derive his virtue?" Um, you are kidding right? I am always amazed at what a simplistic, not to mention, pessimistic view that the religious have towards human moral behavior! So if it were not for the commandments of the bible us humans would be killing each other, raping and stealing and cheating on our spouses. As an atheist I would submit that since religion is indeed man-made, also the morals that go along with religion. In non-secular families, supernatural entities and events are presented as reasons for complying with rules about behavior, in secular families compliance is connected with overarching principles related to human needs and experiences such as individual autonomy, equal rights of human beings and freedom of conscience. Far more crimes committed by religious persons than by non-believers. In fact quite often religion is used as justification for criminal acts. Religion has been the motivator for the majority of wars and crimes against humans.

“Ultimately, all standards of good and bad, right and wrong derive from religion and the founders knew that.” Well, not exactly. Many of the founding fathers were arguably, anti-religion. "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." "The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.” "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." "Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus."- Thomas Jefferson
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." "The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty." - Thomas Paine
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." – Benjamin Franklin
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." "Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects." – James Madison

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." – John Adams

CONDESCENDING MORMON CHICK:

NW Gal, you appear to be a passionate person and that lends force to your argument, but I have read enough of the founders writings to know when their words are taken out of context. I have studied enough early American History to know the role of religious thought in the founding of this country's institutions. I will indulge in only one example...

"Twenty times, in the course of my late Reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible Worlds, if there were no Religion in it"!!! But in this exclamati[on] I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly [Adams' boyhood parish priest and Latin school master]. Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell."
~John Adams

Your arguments are heartfelt but typical. Yes, great atrocities have been committed in the name of religion, but great good has also been done *by religious people*. I speak more of the greater good that is derived in society when there is a commonly held standard of virtue. Atheists might have good standards of virtue, but then they may not, since those standards end up being ultimately subjective and answerable to no one but each individual.

Hitler, Stalin and Mao were atheists and were responsible for the deaths if millions upon millions. We could spend hours trying to "prove" our respective positions, but we would argue past each other. I respect your right to not believe in religion, but continue to maintain that a capitalist society without the benefit of a citizenry that observes standards of personal (not government imposed) virtue is doomed to be full if excess and hedonism, and that religion as a cultural institution is the best means of imparting standards of virtue that can be commonly agreed upon (I speak in general, to rule by the exception is to make a fool of reason). The alternative is an intrusive government enforced morality that changes constantly and is ever more oppressive.

Gary can tell you whether I base my arguments on "myth" vs fact. I happen to like science and do not believe that religion and science are mutually exclusive.



HELP.. IF anyone has any suggestions as to what I can say to this person I would appreciate it. She is much more eloquent than I ... however misled she may be.

It is true that many atheist leaders have been bad, but then so have plenty of nonatheist leaders and even religiousleaders. People are people and in my opinion there isn't a lot of difference in behavior between believers and non believers. Point out some good atheists and some jerks who are religious. You probably won't convince her though.

I know I'm not gonna convince her. I just want to out argue her, lol.

I keep hearing that crap about Atheist communist leaders murdering people. How many of those commies murdered in the name of Atheism ? ZERO !

On the other hand, religious nuts always murder in the name of religion. And Hitler was the baddest religious nut of them all.

Well, atheism sure didn't improve their character , now did it? and Hitler was only religious in public. In private he was pretty contemptuous of religion and his supporters were heavily in to paganism and the occult. I'm sure you won't believe me, but those are historical facts whether you like them or not.

I already said that and besides it is hardly the point.

But pointing out that atheism doesn't make people better is the point eh?

The standard Bona Dea double standard.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2012 01:03AM by MJ.

You may want to start with the 10 commandments.

Three have nothing to do with being a decent person.

Have no gods before me, graven images, keeping the sabbath day holy.

One is questionable whether or not it applies to being a decent person...using the lords name in vain.

And the last one. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife, is the most dangerous. To covet is a thought rather than the action that is required by the other commandments.

The idea of thought police is the most sinister, as we can see in North Korea.

When she says the only source of morality is God, look at her with some shock and ask, "Are you saying that your basic nature is to murder, steal and rob and the ONLY thing stopping your is God? Is that really who you are if you didn't have god?"

That is a good point. The closest other thought police I can think of is Boyd K packers 'for young men only', which has been labeled by many as the most damaging sermon ever.

"arguing is like the special olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded" haha!

The first question I would have, is what does she call moral?
There are a lot of different versions.


Does she fear that without religion she would be an out of control slut? Murderer? thief?

If the answer is yes, then is it a fear of lack of SELF control?
If the answer is no, then what's the big dilemma?

She will probably make it about sex, especially premarital sex,since many Mormons define morality in terms of following the sexual rules. Most people are a lot more liberal than Mormons and other Fundies on the subject, so you might have trouble there.Try to discuss other issues of morality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7xt5LtgsxQ

Qualiasoup and TheraminTrees have some excellent videos I suggest checking out their channels.

that thrive on acceptance and are quick to get in an uproar over a difference of opinion.

Arguing, challenging religious beliefs very often ruins relationships.

For me, it's just not worth the energy.
I prefer to accept people the way they are and discuss the thousands of other topics that are part of our lives that are more likely to be compatible.

That's a very nice thought SuzyQ. She is not a friend or even an acquaintance - so no relationship to ruin. You are right, it may not be worth the energy. Maybe I'm just annoyed because she was so condescending - annoyed because all of the fb friends of this person "liked" her comments against me. Maybe I just want to prove something to myself. IDK. I just feel like arguing about it. Maybe I'm a debater at heart? Not a master debater however, lol. I like lively discussion regarding religion and politics. I guess it feels like a challenge. Most people I argue with are not as intelligent as she is.

Hitler was an atheist?

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
--Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" --the closing sentence of Chapter 2

If you want Tyranny you need go no further than people who get their morals from God. To them their morals are the right ones for everyone. They are the ones that feel justified in enforcing their viewpoint on others.

When your morals come from God there is no more discussion. "God said it, I believe it and that ends it" says the bumper sticker. However when you get your morality from philosophy then you have to justify it logically to others to get them to follow it, or to a majority to get them to encode it into law.

When morality comes from God then you can justify human suffering that is caused by it as being God's will. Interestingly Mormonism states that gays must spend their whole life alone and celibate in order to get a future "pie in the sky" reward. They even divert millions of dollars to have their "God-given" morality encoded into law.

God-given morality is the reason adulterers are beheaded in fundamentalist Islamic countries. They are the governments that do not look to this world for their morality but unquestioningly follow what, in their opinion, God wants.

God-given morality need make no sense to us; it need not show any advantage in human happiness. It can be genocidal ("And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males." - Numbers 31:7, or "Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." Numbers 31:17-18). It can call for the death penalty for gathering sticks on a certain day of the week. It can be crazy but that's OK because it's from GOD!

However morality that doesn't have the "from God" imprint has to be questioned, analyzed, studied. It's implications have to be thought out. Miserable outcomes can be avoided. We can change things if we see it's not working well. When it supposedly comes from God, however, we are stuck with it.

And, interestingly, God never tells us what proper morality is. It's always some human claiming that God told them and that we should believe them. In fact there are lots of different such moral codes that various humans have claimed they've gotten from God. Joseph Smith said God told him it was OK to secretly have sex with the wives and daughters of his followers, for example. Supposedly God wants condoms to not be used in AIDS-ridden Africa. An agonizing death is more pleasing to Him than the use of birth control evidently.

When God clearly communicates to every human exactly what correct morality is then we can talk about "God-given morality." Until then there is no such thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs

Your quotes were for public consumtion.Hitler was a politican and played to the religious Germans because he needed their support. Read what he said in private.He ridicules Christianity and takes over church scaraments He wasn't an atheist but he was also not a Christian or a regular church goer. He seems to have been into paganism. There was an interesting program on Hitler and the occult on the Military Channel a couple of days ago. You might look at their websire and see if it availabel there. Hitler was neither an atheist or a Christian!AGAIN, I NEVER SAID HE WAS AN ATHEIST.PLEASE DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2012 01:36AM by bona dea.

Hitler was a well known christian and if you could read then you could read his writings and quotes which constantly proclaim his christianity.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/04/2012 01:40AM by bona dea.

So you are claiming to be some kind of clairvoyant and know
Hitler's thoughts.

Don't worry. Everyone can see through your scam.

As of yet, I have not seen anything that supports your views. Of course, I never have and don't expect it, thus don;t believe a word you say.

Love your thoughts about morality and god-given morality Baura. I am going to use some of these :)

Look for a book called "The Moral Landscape" by Sam Harris. He explains why human morality doesn't need any religions.

You need to destroy her.

She doesn't know what she's talking about with the founders and she doesn't know what she's talking about with the body count of supposed "atheist" killings.

She's got one quote from one founder. Google all the other founders quotes that show most of them wanted a secular society. Show the letter of separation between churn and state that Jefferson wrote that was upheld at least twice by the supreme court.

Ask where the atheist leaders killed in the name of atheism. Then talk about the crusades, 9/11, etc.

What's her point then? It's clear people have killed for her god. And you can even go to the scriptures and show that god has ZERO problem with cold blooded murder.

Yes! Great ideas Raptor!!

Email me.

Lord.raptor.isgod@gmail.com

I will help you throw down.

Ok, Raptor, I emailed you. Thank you!!