I saw the title to another thread about the fallacy of people needing religion to be good people and it got me thinking about what is going on with me since I'm "in transition" between a member and an exmo.

A couple nights ago in a theatre a man turned around to my son and barked "Listen kid, don't kick my chair", he was overtly threatening him. I felt bad that my son had obviously kicked this guys chair and bothered him to the point he would turn around and do that. I thought I would talk to my son after the movie about it. At the end of the movie the man stood up and muttered something along the lines of "You need to teach your kids to behave". I was ticked! I went from empathetic to angry and defensive in a heartbeat.

I've had several other experiences that have shown that my patience (which I used to have a lot of) is pretty much gone. I'm cranky with people and I've lost a lot of my faith that people in general are generally good but do bad things. I see a lot more people as self-interested, greedy, lying pieces of crap.

So did this happen to any of you? Is it due to the stress of losing what was once the most important thing in my life? Is it just because I don't care about whether Jesus expects it of me? Does it get any better?

I was never a Mormon but I think you just ran into a really rude person. I would have been ticked if I was Mormon or not. As a Mormon that would not have bothered you????It has nothing to do with you leaving Mormonism.

Some people in this world hate kids too. Next time don't sit anywhere near some person or couple who may do such a thing. I think you are seeing MORE now in people since you were so sheltered before. I actually feel badly for Mormons who do not understand the lives of others....have no compassion for others who are not like them, and also have no communication skills to use with other people.

Had I been you I would have said very politely "What my son did was an accident. And you know nothing of my parenting skills so it is best you don't go there. Have a nice day." He was simply a jerk. You find them everywhere.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2010 12:31PM by honestone.

I know he was rude, but I was rude back and if my wife hadn't been there he and I would have continued at each other until an altercation happened.

But just to put it in perspective, this is just one example of a ton of interactions I have recently where I either just don't care about this person or their situation any more, I'm short with them, and I generally see the worst in them.

I'm just wondering if this is a normal reaction to leaving the church or losing faith. I've been trying for soo long to just keep the peace, to keep my head down and not make waves that it has built up pressure that is escaping in ways I don't think are normal for me. I would imagine I'm not the only one that has had to deal with that.

I've had kids kick me before, and I mean repeatedly. I've even stared at the parent before I finally say something.

Are you sure your son only kicked him once? Kids can be pretty oblivious to how their behavior affects others. How would you feel if you were watching a movie and someone kept kicking your chair.

I understand your instinct to defend your son, but you should try to have some empathy for this guy. You may love your child, but don't expect everyone else to.

axeldc Wrote:
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>
> Are you sure your son only kicked him once? Kids
> can be pretty oblivious to how their behavior
> affects others.

I am pretty sure that there were multiple kicks involved. My point wasn't that my son wasn't bothering him, or whether this man or I could have handled it better. It was that I know I could have handled it better but I didn't and this is a trend that goes beyond the movie theater.

Teach your kid to behave better and have enough sense in the presence of others to respect their existence too?

Chalk me up for one who is sick and tired of ignorant bad-mannered slobs loose on the streets of America.

WTF?! Why the hell would you assume that I am not actively teaching my son to have "sense in the presence of others to respect their existence too?"

Your post infuriates me. You take an OP about losing patience and faith in mankind to a criticism of my parenting skills because my son bothered someone else.

Children are raised while being imperfect and that means that they might bother someone sometimes and I can teach them how to adjust their behavior.

Do you have any comment other than some backhand OT insult about parenting skills?

What recent experience do you have with ignorant, bad-mannered slobs running loose in America?

I always seem to have some SOB in an SUV riding my ass up or down E Street while I'm doing 25-30mph. Sometimes they'll give me a little honk when our paths diverge.

Other than that I've found people's behavior when dealing with strangers, in general, remarkably civil.

FWIW and IMHO, if you find yourself snapping at children for behaving like children you've probably lost sight of the fact they aren't just miniature adults.

I snap at their ignorant poorly-trained parents. After all, the children are only as well-trained (or not) as their trainers.

I can only assume then from your posts that your parents were ignorant and poorly-trained parents.

Did they keep you inside all day long and never allow you to interact with others for fear you might bother someone?

voltaire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I snap at their ignorant poorly-trained parents.
> After all, the children are only as well-trained
> (or not) as their trainers.

Yes there are rude kids, but children are not tiny adults and they are restless and antsy. That bothers some adults. What is wrong with asking the kids to stop kicking the seat in a nice way? A small child isn't likely to consider that he might be annoying someone and the parent may not have noticed. Geez! Obviously you have little patience.BTW, I don't like brats either, but every kid who isn't behaving perfectly isn't a brat with negligent parents.

determined if your child had, in fact, kicked the man's seat, and then told him to apologize to the man.

Did you do that? I'm betting you did not.

Still more critiques of the example I used of losing patience? Or would you like to continue to rehash out the point that I lost my patience and empathy for this man and talk about what could have been done differently?

Do you have anything of value to add to the original post?

The point was that before I was in a crisis of faith I would have cared a lot more about this man's movie experience than I did after he became confrontational. If I were still in the Mormon daze I may have apologized to him when he threatened my child or when he decided to take that threat up the food chain to me. I was more inclined to react with anger and confrontation to him that I would have been before I began to dismantle my belief system.

"Life is like a sewer" true for the rest of us.

You wrote: "I've had several other experiences that have shown that my patience (which I used to have a lot of) is pretty much gone. I'm cranky with people and I've lost a lot of my faith that people in general are generally good but do bad things. I see a lot more people as self-interested, greedy, lying pieces of crap."

I'd suggest that you learn that life IS like a public water supply: what YOU (specifically) get out of it depends on what YOU (specifically and generally) put into it.

You've been around here for a while and I'm familiar with your posting style, so I'm going to hazard a guess that you neither care that you shit in the public water supply, nor do you want to change that antisocial behavior. Additionally it appears that you DO expect everyone else to like it when you (and apparently your children as well) shit all over their portions of public water supply too.

Contrary to your ridiculous premise, the world is not full of child-haters. If it were, there wouldn't be more than 6.8 billion humans on the planet right now. What you seem unaware of is that nobody in any society likes, enjoys, or feels they must tolerate is when some fool reproduces and then expects the world to raise their child for them because they are too busy coddling themselves to see how much of an imposition that is on everyone else. Raise your own child in the privacy of your own home so he isn't an imposition and an irritant to society when he goes out in public. If 95% of Americans would only do this, Americans in general would get along with each other a whole lot better and the rest of the world would immediately stop thinking we are such an insanely ignorant low-class nation.

Instead of getting angry when people don't coddle you regarding your and your offspring's abominable public behavior, why don't you pick up the clue phone? Nobody wants to go out in public to enjoy themselves and then have to suffer the rude self-centered behavior of fools and their offspring. You might go back and re-read some of your own nasty comments in those child-proselytizing-in-school threads to pick up on the irony of your whiny attitude in this thread . . .

There, I've posted something both on topic and pertinent to you and your thread. If you don't like it, you can take some of SusieQ#1's stupid advice and not read it. Or did you just want to whine and be coddled for it?

Ok, I think you obviously have a hang up about children as you seem to zero in on this example and try to blow it up into the whole thread.

Let me try to clarify the thrust of this post for you by giving you a different example. Perhaps you can deal with it better since I won't involve parenting which might get you off track.

I have several employee that report to me at work. From the moment I was given employees to supervise I have tried to take the tact of being a mentor and trying to help them to develop and grow into their careers. I have always maintained the philosophy of "aptitude and attitude" over a certain skillset.

One employee I hired is having a difficult time balancing his job responsibilities and often chooses to spend time on what he knows and is comfortable with rather than work on resolving the problems he doesn't know how to fix.

If you had asked me about how to deal with this a year or two ago I would have held his hand, worked on getting him training, tried to teach him some of the methods that were successful for me, etc.

Now I find that I'm thinking he's just lazy and taking advantage of my patience rather than just new to his profession. Instead of looking for ways to help him overcome his difficulty I'm tempted to just put him on a performance improvement plan and give him a sink or swim situation.

Does that help? Try to focus on the GENERAL situation I'm asking here which is "HOW DOES ONE DEAL WITH A LOSS OF FAITH IN PEOPLE AFTER LEAVING THE CHURCH?"

I know you may be tempted to find some way to nit pick or criticize some specific behavior but hopefully you can stay on topic and find some suggestions that can help me and others like me deal with wanting to wring the life out of people like you when we run across you in public.

I thing that our society was very stressed even before the recession hit. Workers have become disposable. Back when my dad was a plant manager (from the 1940's to the 60's,) layoffs were rare and it was considered to be a mark of shame for a company to lay off its workers. Now periodic layoffs seem to be the norm for most companies. And back then you most likely worked for one company your entire career. The company took an interest in you, trained you, and developed you. Companies feel far less invested in their employees now.

I was recently reading about one woman, an M.B.A., who has had immense difficulty in sustaining her career. She's been laid off several times, has seen her salary cut in half, and has been unemployed for a year now. I don't think that her story is that unusual.

Teachers in my part of the country have been extremely stressed about meeting the testing demands of the No Child Left Behind law. Teaching has always been a 50-60+ hour a week job, but lately no amount of labor seems to be sufficient to appease the never-ending demands of administrators. Most teachers whom I have talked to recently (even the young ones!) loathe their jobs and don't recommend the profession to others.

In a culture where workers are treated like so much pond scum, it is not surprising that people have less patience with one another and sometimes snap as a result.

Now you want to punish an employee because you have run to the end of your sympathy fuse. Congratulations, champ! Your "examples" of how your issues are other peoples' problems are more damaging to you than not. Maybe you need to look within yourself for some self-control in dealing with your anger issues instead of acting out all the time and hating the world for all these imagined slights to the fabulousness of your outrage.

Just because you're angry at the cult for deceiving you doesn't mean you get permission to act out against the whole world. Everyone here has had to deal with what you're going through. You just want others to suffer for your anger. So ask yourself "how does that make it right?" Guess what—the whole world will tell you to shut your pie hole and either deal with it or get counseling. I'd suggest the latter: most people can't think rigorously enough to "deal with it" successfully by themselves.

voltaire Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Now you want to punish an employee because you
> have run to the end of your sympathy fuse.

Punish him? Or evaluate him for not working up to expectations? I'm simply too tired and no longer care whether he develops or not. Why should I? I didn't sign up to hold his hand. However if you had asked me that question before I stopped caring about God, Jesus, and the greater good I would have spent a lot more time trying to mentor him, and trying to find a way to help him unlock his potential.

> Congratulations, champ! Your "examples" of how
> your issues are other peoples' problems are more
> damaging to you than not.

How so? Why should I care? Why should I jump in and help? If I flip on the self-interest goggles and ask myself "What's in it for me?" the answer is nothing, just a lot more work and worry.

>Maybe you need to look
> within yourself for some self-control in dealing
> with your anger issues instead of acting out all
> the time

Acting out? How? I never claimed to be angry with him or to have acted out at all. I just feel no reason to go beyond what needs to be done to get my job done anymore.


> Just because you're angry at the cult for
> deceiving you doesn't mean you get permission to
> act out against the whole world.

Who grants this permission you speak of? Who is in control? I'm not claiming to be frothing at the mouth walking around beating up homeless people here. I'm saying I don't see the reason to help, to serve, to empathize, to care about the greater good.

Based on the way you have snapped at people here who disagree with your assessment, I'm starting to have more empathy for the guy in front of you.

Yeah, I'll take that critique, I have been snipping on the board here.

I hope you'll see that when I've snapped at people it has been snapping back at posts that insult rather than discuss.

Your child had no business kicking the seat in front.A prompt apology would have been nice.

People go to a movie, restaurant,play, whatever, to relax and they do not want to deal with other people's children while they are "being taught".

We once went to an upscale restaurant where an annoying toddler kept causing a ruckus - until we told the parents to please keep their kid in line.

Sure they were pissed but Wtf ?

Yes we all know kids are learning but it's unfair to inflict them on other customers who are paying to enjoy themselves.

@Glo--

So where exactly are we supposed to go, to teach our kids to behave politely around others? 'Cause apparently we're supposed to be so worried about ruining your good time with our human foibles that we should never leave the house?

Well, on second thought, that might work better, if people who glare and bark at small children/their parents are the apparent example of adults on their best behavior that kids are supposed to emulate.

{giant eye roll}

Your job as a parent is to teach kids at home to behave in public.
Hire a sitter until the child can do so.

The public should not have to suffer for your lack of good parenting or consideration.

Glo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your job as a parent is to teach kids at home to
> behave in public.


Where is this manual that you speak of? Who dictates what my "job as a parent" is? I thought it was public, which means my kids have just as much a right to go out an wreak mayhem as you have to your quiet evening.

> Hire a sitter until the child can do so.
>
> The public should not have to suffer for your lack
> of good parenting or consideration.

"The public" has to suffer far worse than my children kicking a patron's chair.

Pray tell, what mechanism do you propose using to enforce your thoughts about how "the public" should be protected from children?

Thanks for posting Boughbx, we're glad to have you join the World of Good. It does get better. You are actually grieving the loss of comfort the illusion provided. The illusion of certainty about the so-called Plan of Salvation, which was sold to you very much like an insurance policy.

You have made a courageous, adult choice to face the truth--which is that no one knows--and at the same time risk the respect of friends and family for choosing a life of authenticity.

I can't speak for everyone on this board, but I can tell you that the initial disillusionment in others disappears as you realize that you yourself are a "gray" area - having wonderful qualities mixed with human failings, but that a large area of guilt (coffee, liquor, masturbation,meetings,tithing,evil-speaking,loud laughter, or whatever) is just contrived control-freak crap.

As you accept yourself as a good person despite your faults and you struggle to discover what you truly believe about politics, religion, philosophy, family (and other areas the brethren did our thinking for you), your own unique authentic self will emerge. This does take time, and I believe that the joy of finding yourself and embracing your own contradictions will free you to accept the same in others.

I always feel so proud of people who have the guts to leave the conflicting self-serving message of Mormonism and put their loved ones ahead of the corporation. Most of us here were True Believers in every sense of the word. The anger and witty sarcasm you see here at times represents people converting their own disillusionment (how can they lie to my FACE!) into humor and builds a safe, anonymous comraderie here on the board for support.

These very same people have shed tears of shame and hurt when they discovered the truth. Many of us suffered through adjustment problems--let's face it, it's a pole shift from believing the Book of Mormon is the most perfect book to believing it's a pile of mostly-plagerized crap.

Don't be embarrassed to get professional help from a secular source. If ever you needed it, this is the time. A therapist can walk you through how to tell people, how to manage depression, how to best handle the future with children, etc.

And you can ask ANY adjustment question here. Robertb and others here are professional psychologists and can give you a deep perspective having gone through the same experience leaving Mormonism you have.

My own faith in the goodness of human nature has increased over the years because I realize that the reasons people join the Mormons "wholesome family, charitable happy people" are good and that the increasing number of people leaving means that once people learn it is BS, 185,000 people per year summon the courage to leave no matter what the cost.

A choice to live by Truth and accept Reality also includes accepting the fact that some humans have tried to control other humans for thousands of years using religious lies. You didn't start that and you aren't going to change it. All you can do is claim your own life back and practice the beliefs that are truly yours, and grant that same privilege freely to others.

Good luck and hope to hear more from you on RfM!

Anagrammy

Nicely said, anagrammy. Your post is very helpful.

Boughxb, allow yourself the time to adjust. You're doing just fine.

Cheers

Thanks annagrammy for your post.I'm sure Boughxb didn't share his concern with the board thinking he was going to get beat up over it. I have 9 kids. Believe me,you can not watch them all the time,even if you only have 1 with you. There have been many times one or more of my kids has acted up in public. Of course I am embarrased and stop the behavior when I become aware of it. Kicking backs of seats? Happens all the time by some bored,restless,child. It's happened to me lots of times and I never assumed the kids had rotten parents. I've had some nasty looks by passengers on airplanes if my child ACCIDENTALLY kicks the seat in front. I think most kicks are accidents and not kids trying to be bratty.

Yeah for lots of kids! I actually wanted 12 but settled for 9...

Anagrammy this was one of the most well thought out and written responses to the original post. Thank you for your thoughts and advice. I hope it does get better and I hope that others on the board can chime in with their experience on moving past the "What now?" phase of leaving the Mormon church.


anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> My own faith in the goodness of human nature has
> increased over the years because I realize that
> the reasons people join the Mormons "wholesome
> family, charitable happy people" are good and that
> the increasing number of people leaving means that
> once people learn it is BS, 185,000 people per
> year summon the courage to leave no matter what
> the cost.
>
> A choice to live by Truth and accept Reality also
> includes accepting the fact that some humans have
> tried to control other humans for thousands of
> years using religious lies. You didn't start that
> and you aren't going to change it. All you can do
> is claim your own life back and practice the
> beliefs that are truly yours, and grant that same
> privilege freely to others.
>
> Good luck and hope to hear more from you on RfM!
>
> Anagrammy

One of the things that Mormonism does is to blind you to reality.

Fiction: "We are all sons and daughters of a wise, kind, Heavenly Father."

Fact: We are animals who have evolved (and are still evolving) to the point of living in a place called civilization.

Just a few thousand years ago (a mere blink in geological time) we lived in groups where everyone knew everyone else and the village raised all the children.

Now we encounter strangers each day. I think it's only natural to be suspicious and mistrustful of them and having come across a dumbass like you did makes it even worse.

We had a simular thing happen at the Ringo Starr concert we took my daughter (Beatles fanatic) to last summer. Some pig in a wig was trying to film the ENTIRE concert and yelled at my daughter to be still twice. I didn't hear what happened until after the concert but there were children all over the place dancing and you could see just fine IF you were not trying to get bootleg footage.

Some people are jerks. Kids will be kids no matter how hard you ride them.

You wrote: "I see a lot more people as self-interested, greedy, lying pieces of crap."

I think that's because in the last 30 years it's become more and more acceptable to be a self-interested, greedy, lying pieces of crap. I think the "peace, love and social justice" that came out of the 1960s has been replaced by...well without getting political I think you get my drift.

I don't know if it's just in American society or not. My youngest sees this and is talking about moving to Sweden when she grows up.

Anyway, I feel your pain.

...to the people who are down on others who have kids and are trying to raise them....

If you are miffed that some toddler screamed at the wrong time during your evening out, just remember that that screaming kid may one day be the man who has to change your diaper in the nursing home and may dearly wish he could put a pillow over your head and stop your senile whinning for good.

Live and let live!

Thanks for the reply, maybe you're right and it is a more widespread issue than just leaving the church.

What's the weather like in Sweden btw? I picture a mountain with glaciers . . .

I have the same experiences. Been out for a while, but just went through a divorce and I think that has just as much to do with it as being exmo. Anytime we are let down and dissapointed and have to re-navigate life under new beliefs, there is a grieving going on that manifests itself in anger. Coupled with the fact that we now see reality more clearly, reality can be harsh, and I think it is normal to react harshly to that reality; perhaps not the optimal way to react, but we area just humans and are emotions exist for a reason.

Thanks for the response. Do you care if I ask if your marriage ended before, during, or after you left the church?

I can certainly see how leaving the church can completely redefine and threaten a marriage.

I've found stress makes me crankier and you've got a load of that.

The other factor has been age. I lost all patience with idiot managers and endless meetings and had to retire early to keep from killing someone. I've watched my friends do the same. Stuff that used to make me roll my eyes now is unbearable. People who think they are going to work forever to make up for no savings have a big unpleasant surprise coming.

I suspect it is mostly all bio chemical.

MMM, so I can chalk this up to old age and male menopause?

Seems 34 is a bit early for that . . .

I am also struggling with a loss of faith. I feel very disillusioned with many things in life now. I see only a very few people do good things among many who claim to be good or religious people. I have no faith in my doctors to help me or my insurance to pay the portion they are supposed to. I find myself very distrusting of anyone around me to behave with common courtesy or manners.

As a parent, if I did not know my son was annoying someone, I would be embarrassed and do my best to rectify the situation. It seems that if the OP's son was kicking the seat, OP was not aware of it until the man turned around and snapped at him.

My children are generally well behaved in public. However, they are sometimes a little noisy, even if they are not misbehaving. I am cognizant of this and am teaching them to be considerate of others who do not want to hear a bunch of "kid noise," and I would hope that people will see that and go about their own business. If we never take our children out in public, how can they be expected to learn how to behave in public? They need to practice. They aren't born knowing how to behave like an adult. It is a process that takes their entire childhood, in my opinion. And sometimes they have a melt down that can not be foreseen and you are not able to immediately leave. That is horribly embarrassing as a parent, and people(who I am sure I don't need to remind anyone were also children at one time) who treat children like the plague just add insult to injury. We are all working hard to raise our children the best way we know how.

We were taught in the lds church that if you did this and this and this, such as "if you lose yourself, you will find yourself." It was about serve, serve, serve, be nice, be nice, be nice--so you do see this facade of niceness with mormons and most of them are passive-aggressive, but you have that illusion of if you are always nice, then others will be the same.

That is what I've found as I've grown older is that being nice gets you nowhere. You expect people will return the "favor"--but they actually just learn how to treat you. "She'll always be nice, so I can do this and this and this to her." I was so nice for so long and then so broken for so long that now that I stand up for myself, people are taken aback.

The niceness and "all is well" bullsh*t the church teaches and we buy into is all just that.

My big thing right now is being put on hold--and those stupid answering systems for companies. I was on hold for a total of 75 minutes for a company the other day and then they couldn't understand why I was upset. One person couldn't just help me--he could only take my personal info and then transfer me. Basically, there is no common courtesy in the world anymore.

And if this guy thought your kid kicking his chair was bad--have we all noticed how ADULTS act in movies?

It might have been your kid, or it might just have been the last piece in a string of insults from other people's children that sent him over the edge. When I'm in a movie theater, I'll allow for a random kick here and there (heck, I sometimes inadvertantly do it myself when I'm shifting position in my seat.) The problem comes from the kids who are persistent kickers. Generally I'll turn all the way around and give them "the look." That will usually stop it. If it doesn't, I'll calmly request the child to stop, or I'll ask the parent to intervene.

Speaking as an elementary school teacher, I see far too many poorly behaved children in public. Sure, kids are going to have their moments. I'll give a mom a sympathetic smile if very young child is having a meltdown, or if a kid is getting sassy and the mom has to correct him or her. All entirely normal. Where I have a problem is when a child's poor behavior is allowed to persist without correction. I used to watch my elderly mom be terrified of school-age children who were running through a store without the parent intervening. She was desperately worried about falling should they crash into her. I will certainly intervene in such a case when the parent fails to do so!

Sometimes I think parents have no idea in the world just how controlled children have to be in a school environment in order to keep everyone safe and have a productive learning day. School in a lot of ways is like "kid boot camp." We have high expectations for student behavior in that setting, but I don't always see the same high expectations in the wider world.

As for your question...I think that when you are stressed, it can definitely make you cranky and pessimistic. People who are feeling well-treated and good about themselves will generally take a benevolent view of others, and shrug away the few folks who are having a bad day or a bad life, for that matter.

The man was, from your point of view, clearly too aggressive with his actions. Although I admit that I have had my moments in a theater where I'm furious at kids acting like brats and their parents do nothing.

So while he was too aggressive, deciding to say something "after the movie" to your son was the wrong call. An immediate apology to the man and "keep your feet off the chair" to your son was what should have happened. Because had I been in the same position as that man, seeing you not say a word to your son about his behavior would have made me presume that you were ignoring his bad behavior and going along with it like many, MANY parents out there do.

So sorry - you were just as in the wrong here because you didn't take the opportunity to teach your son. Putting it off for hours doesn't help. Teaching in the moment, particularly during a movie, needs to happen.

He finally erupted. Not too unlike your own eruption when he told you to raise your kids better. This is a great example of the mirror effect. I want to say that I would have been incensed also, either as the parent of the child who was kicking the chair and then being accused of poor parenting, and also as the person who was having to endure the seat kicking.

I think you have an opportunity to help your son realize his behavior triggered some unwanted consequences. Boundaries were violated for you and for the person who endured the seat kicking.

Did your son learn from this experience? If so, what did he learn?

Did the guy in front of your son over react? Probably. Your son most likely did not realize that his kicking the seat in front of him was inappropriate and doing so was probably of little significance to him at the time,

It is probably in your son's best interest if he understand that his behavior can create negative consequences. I am sure he does now. If someone was kicking the back of your chair in a theatre, I will bet you would likely respond in a similar way to person who was kicking the back of your seat (or Would you have just endured it and keep your mouth shut?)

Lot's of good stuff can come from this experience, if you can let it. I hope it becomes a memory that you all can laugh about down the road and see it for the miniscule eruption that it truly was. Good time to breath deep and thank the dear Lard that you wife was there to save your asses. And a good time was had by all. LOL JMHO

By the way, how old is your son and what was the production of movie you were enjoying?

I felt like my emotions were a little out of control.

I chalk that up now to a couple of things:

1) I had spent a lifetime in a society where it wasn't okay to feel angry. I was used to suppressing feelings and I was just learning to allow myself to feel some things (like anger). But I hadn't learned to feel it AND deal with it. I also felt more of the positive emotions as well. I just had to find my emotional equilibrium.

2) Anger is one of the steps in the grieving process. You've probably lost a lot by leaving the church: perhaps the security of having all the answers, or a sense of purpose in life, perhaps relationships. I think it takes a while to come to terms with the loss . . . to accept that it's okay NOT to have all the answers, and to realize that although you've lost something that meant a lot to you, you've GAINED something even MORE valuable. But sometimes it takes a while to realize what you've gained. I found that relationships that I lost weren't genuine loving relationships to begin with: They were conditional on me playing a role.

3) Stress. It's stressful to leave the church, and that can make a person cranky.


Give yourself some time and patience. I think that if you are AWARE when you are overreacting, that you'll be able to self-correct. Honestly, I think the transition might have gone better for me if I had seen a counselor when I was leaving. The people on the board and my husband were supportive.

I know we've had our differences of opinion, but that's okay. I wish you the best. And don't let people who attack you (Voltaire) make you feel like you can't get support here. Ignore those who aren't helpful. I don't remember seeing that poster here, so I wonder if he/she is a troll. It seemed like their comments were designed to upset you rather than to be constructive.

Your question is "Did this ever happen to you?"

NO, it NEVER did! Why? Because from the time the children were small but reasonalbly verbal, they were taught how to behave before we went anywhere. They were taught early on to say "Thank you, please" and "I'm sorry" if they accidently annoyed someone! Since we, the parents also were very polite, it wasn't difficult for the children to learn.

They also had beautiful table manners. So much so that people would write notes to congratulate us about it. My husband kept them all!

This has nothing to do with religion but with good breeding!

Unless of course you have a child with issues,which I have. With ds I could very rarely take to a restaurant because of his behavior. But he would sit in a theatre still as a mouse. And I took his game boy to church starting when he was 3 to keep him from causing major problems. He did not have the ability to sit still and focus and behave. He has been in therapy 3 years now and is doing amazing! I have spent a lot of time with him trying to catch him up socially,and he is getting there. So sometimes a child just can't sit still. I know there are misbehaved kids and it drives me nuts when I am around one and their parent doesn't step in and correct the behavior.

You know, kids do things and adults need to make some allowances for it now and then. The guy in front of you probably had a kid with him kicking some other guy in front of *him* I'm impressed this guy stayed pissed off the whole movie. That says a lot about him--and not good, either.

Leaving the church is stressful. It some ways it was great, but in others it was frightening--like someone removed a couple of layers of skin-- so crankiness, loss of empathy, and faith in people isn't surprising, but if it persists you might consider getting some help for it. It took me a while after I left the church to figure out and make a deliberate effort about how to be more assertive, let criticism roll off of me, and defend myself when needed. Those weren't skills we learned as Mormons.

You could have said: "You are right. And I'm sorry. I intend to take the little %$&^ back home and beat the living £$%^ out of him!"

It wouldn't have hurt to have the kid apologize, but when someone yells at a kid for being a kid, I am not all that inclined to be gracious. He could have asked nicely.I'm not fond of out of control kids either, but kids will be kids. They are not little adults.Kicking a seat is what kids do.The guy needs to learn some manners himself before he criticizes a child's behavior.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2010 06:32PM by bona dea.

I agree with Bon Dea...

I have 2 toddlers and at times they can be hard to control. Kids will be kids. If they do get out of line I'm quick to apologize and correct the offending behavior.

That being said, what that guy did was totally out of line. He could have politely brought it to your attention. I've been kicked many times at a movie theater. Usually if I turn around and give "the look" that usually suffices. But if the child is younger and doesn't get it, I will politely bring it to the parents attention. Parents are usually gracious about it (I know I would be if my kid was doing the kicking) and the kicking stops immediately.

That guy was a jerk and shouldn't have addressed you that way. The total lack of manners and self-control is completely inappropriate in society. And I must admit, if I were approached like that, the teaching and correcting moment for my child would have gone out the window and I would have responded in fight mode. I do not take well to being treated poorly AT ALL. And oh boy, if someone attacks my child - they'll get the momma bear and trust me NOBODY wants to see that side of me :)

Anyway, leaving the church is stressful. The cult has it's dirty fingers in every aspect of the members lives so it is an adjustment to live life without it. But I wouldn't fret about this situation. The guy was just a jerk.

about something, somewhere.

There is a common prevailing entitlement to let loose, dump on anyone, show anger toward anyone, anywhere. Don't 'hold anything in. Let it all out. Yell at strangers, be rude and obnoxious.

Road Rage has it's companions: Shopping Rage, Internet Rage, Stranger Rage and on and on.

As always people choose their behavior. Nobody forces people to snap at others, let their anger loose on family, friends and strangers at the drop of a hat. People are not forced to respond in kind, but far to often they do.

Almost anything is an excuse to act badly: tired, upset, didn't get enough sleep, bosses, arguments at home, and people take it out on everyone in sight.

The era of: common manners, propriety, decency, civility, self control, graciousness, saying please and thank you is getting harder and harder to find. But how nice it is when people treat one another with those attributes! Just wish it happened more often!

Fact is, for many years you've ignored your feelings, swallowed your anger, kept up a facade of smiles and "good will" that weren't real. You're now moving into an area where you are allowing yourself to acknowledge your negative feelings when they happen but you've never learned how to do that because negative feelings are strictly forbidden in many religions.

I think what would help you very much is:
1) Journal your feelings. You don't need to show this to anyone unless you really want to -- it's just to help you to identify and release your feelings.
2) Investigate some assertiveness training -- to learn how to be assertive without being aggressive.
3) Realize you're learning something new and give yourself time to work on new coping mechanisms.
4) Understand that you aren't just angry about the incident occuring right at that moment -- you're also angry at many OTHER incidents that you never spoke up about -- so you've got extra anger to work through.

As you do these things you'll learn to recognize genuine anger and old anger -- and assertiveness training will help you work out responses that don't escalate but DO allow you to feel, own and express your own emotions.

Good luck with this -- it's not easy to work through old anger and learn new techniques for self expression but I know it's worth it. I had to go through something similar just because I grew up in an abusive home where feelings were not acceptable unless they were happy feelings.

The trick is to do two things simultaneously: manage anger by learning calming skills and at the same time learn to be appropriately assertive. The two go together. I think your pointing out the need for assertiveness training is right on the money. I had the pleasure in the church of working with a few men who were appropriately assertive, but for the most part I felt men in the church, including myself, suppressed much too much of their authentic thoughts and feelings and then became depressed and/or angry.

One thing I did to become aware of anger and irritation was suggested to me by an art therapist I saw. She suggested I simply hang a piece of paper on the wall and put a red mark on it when I was angry or irritated. It filled quicker than I would have imagined and eventually I became aware of not only my anger and irritation, but what I wanted and was feeling thwarted from getting, which is what you want to get to. Then I had to learn to be assertive and learned to take setbacks more in-stride. I'm still working on that. In fact, I've been seeing my therapist for that again, although I'm taking a different angle at it.

Boughxb,

We have a small child. You can't control what they do. When my daughter was learning numbers, she would watch the clock on the stove and ask me over and over, "What's next?"

This went on for weeks. After 1 comes 2. After 2 comes 3.

Kids have to learn by repetition, and they don't always perform perfectly. That doesn't mean they are poorly behaved. They just don't have the judgment skills adults have, or that we assume adults have.

So a grown man in a theater yelled at a child? He (the adult) was acting childish. He yelled at a kid because he didn't dare stand up to an adult. What a coward! It doesn't matter if his wife just left him for another man or he finally figured out the kid he is supporting is not his own.

Only cowards bully kids. A real man would approach you like an adult, and ask you to tell your kid not to kick his chair. People who bully little kids were probably abused as kids.

As far as empathy, I have none for stupid people. I remember seeing a news story about a group of people who went hiking in the middle of winter, and got caught in a blizzard. I remember thinking, "Idiots!" Why do we have to waste a bunch of resources to find these selfish losers who got snowed in because they knowingly did something stupid? That's what happened for me. The same thing when a guy flying around a race track at high speeds gets in an accident and goes up in flames. He assumed the risk. He got fried. Too bad. Besides, feeling bad for every single person who gets hurt is a waste of time.

I do, however, have empathy for people who get hurt through no fault of their own.

T-Bone

Turn around, look at the child, smile and calmly say, "Please don't kick my chair anymore. Thanks!" Smile.

Even if the kid doesn't get the message, the parent does. Works every time.

C'mon -- we all remember how much fun it is to be a ball of leg swinging energy, right? Kids kick chairs. Having your chair kicked is annoying. Sometimes parents aren't aware that their kid is on a kick fest (esp. on planes if the parent dozes off). Meh.

Carry on.

I had been treated as a child, called a Child of God, had a Heavenly Father, the Bishop was the Father of the Ward, so much of the time, I forgot how to act like and think like an adult ---all the time.

It required I practice what adult behavior is and master my emotions and act properly with propriety, and decency in the world around me.

It all boils down to the same thing, in my experience: treat others the way you want to be treated.
That works when it's practiced!

I learned to recognize that split second when I could choose my thoughts and behavior. At one point, I used Positive Affirmations to change what I thought of myself and how I wanted to act and behave with others.

It also required letting go of the past, and learning to live in the present, and recognizing there are no wouldas, shouldas, couldas, what ifs, there is only the NOW. I'm still working on it! :-)

Took some practice as living as a Mormon for decades was based on being an obedient, compliant, Child of God in a very small box of acceptable behaviors.

Now the world was open to me. I was no longer watching over my shoulder wondering what Heavenly Father thought and if I would be acceptable and worthy to live in the Celestial Kingdom.
All that world view was discarded. Now I created my own world view and had to decide how I was going to function in it.

Takes time to adjust when we make major changes in how we think about everything in our lives. Sometimes we are too hard on ourselves, sometimes we are too easy on ourselves, sometimes we miss stuff all together.

But, for me, I just keep putting one foot in front of the other, looking at life as a wonderful experiment in living and finding as much joy and peace and laughter as possible.
It's a whole new world of freedom and I've gotten quite used to it over the last decade and hope to continue for a couple more!

Man, I can't believe all the emphasis on the child's kicking. He is a CHILD and they do stupid things sometimes. Whatever, get off his back.

I wanted to tell you that I feel the same way about people now that I am an exmo. I think mainly I finally feel entitled to be strong. I'm a shy female and have always been walked over. Never again! I stand up for myself and don't take it any more. I remember years of stressing about getting a calling I couldn't handle or that would feel abusive to me. NEVER AGAIN! And, yes, I do feel more stressed to my children and tend to raise my voice more than ever before. I'm working on that.