We know that the Book of Mormon was written by Sydney Rigdon (using a stolen manuscript from the deceased writer, Solomon Spaulding) and Oliver Cowdery. We know this from a definitive and damning linguistic analysis by Stanford professor Craig Criddle, PhD. The connection between Rigdon and the stolen manuscript is confirmed by historical research. We know that there was contention between Joey and Rigdon and Cowdery as a result of polygamy. All the pieces fall neatly into place.

We also know about the damning evidence of fraud that Joey engaged in, e.g. the Kinderhook plates, the Book of Abraham, the Kirtland bank scandal, etc.

How, exactly, was Joey able to keep the church going, recover from all of this, and prevent Sydney and Oliver from confessing the Book of Mormon fraud?

I wonder about that myself. Many say that it was probably because Sidney and Oliver couldn't risk hurting their own reputations. But I think that if they'd issued a sincere apology, and worked towards righting the wrongs that the false church had caused, then they would eventually have been forgiven.

I tend to believe that it had more to do with their own personal safety. I believe that the Blood Atonements didn't necessarily begin with Brigham Young. At least the threat of them began with Joseph Smith. who was actually accused of trying to have Governor Boggs assassinated.

They may well have realized that they were dealing with very dangerous men and decided it prudent to keep their mouths shut. Even after Joseph Smith was gone, Brigham Young, I believe, was even more dangerous.

I'd be willing to have my balls cut off if it wasn't Porter Rockwell or one of his ilk that shot Boggs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 04:35PM by guynoirprivateeye.

"They may well have realized that they were dealing with very dangerous men and decided it prudent to keep their mouths shut."

^^^ this ^^^

He paid them.

Kinkerhook plates??? What are those?!!?
I wonder how has LDS, Inc become so big in spite of the numerous, never endind frauds. I know that not as many members are active compared to the overall official number of members.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 12:07PM by kimball.

The Kinderhook plates were forged by Wilbur Fugate to see if he could incriminate Joseph Smith. It worked, as Joseph said they were made by the man (whose body was "found" next to them) who was a descendant of Ham. Joseph never actually translated them, which apologists like to point out, but we know that they were a deliberate fraud.

the skeleton next to the plates was Zelph right? If it was, did Wilbur Fugute have anything to do with it?

Like JS he was plenty narcissitic as well and pretty power mad. He was a good fire and brimstone preacher, but was otherwise uncharismatic and could be rather dour unlike JS who had great interpersonal skills (especially with the ladies - wink, wink).

I get the impression that SR never lost hope that he might be able to get back in power one day and lead the Mormons. He rushed back to Nauvoo to do exactly that after JS's death. Admitting any fabrication would of course throw a wrench in that hopper.

Of course there is also the natural shame of being a fraud and they might have also run the risk of getting in some legal trouble just like JS was with the Kirkland banking scheme and such.

In short his own ambition was stronger than any bent for revenge on JS. Just my theory.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 05:03PM by mrtranquility.

That theory does make a great deal of sense to me.

All of the evidence (scientific), common sense, and JS being a fraud are enough to convince me that the BOM was a complete fraud. But, it is interesting to me in my TBM days (I read the BOM cover to cover numerous times), that I could never really feel the "spirit" or anything special from the BOM as was promised. I always enjoyed reading the Bible more. I was totally freaked out sometimes by the D&C and PofGP--always thought something wasn't right or that it was so GD weird, I just shook my head. How many times did I pray (as was taught) to feel the spirit, to strengthen my testimony, to increase my faith as I was reading the BOM?? I was praying about a false book and a false work.

I think it's simple religious inspiration. To what extent they all participated will always be a mystery. The core, in my view has to do with the notion that they were restoring the only true church of Jesus Christ and the keys to perform the ordinances for eternal life. I still think Joseph Smith Jr gets the credit for the majority of the whole thing. He took credit for it, as the "author" of the BOM. Anyone else was in the background and later argued with him as they came and went from their church.

To understand it more fully, it's important to try to wrap our minds around the the concept that D. Michael Quinn authored: "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View". History shows that each group that settled in each state or area had a predominant religious group all ready organized: Methodist, Congregationalists, and on and on.

These are very, very different times which, in my view, makes it extremely difficult to understand the thinking and the life of the people the days that Mormonism was taking hold.

The early 1800's in New York religiosity played heavily into how and why the BOM came into being. Initially, it was not taught as such, at least not much. The notion of who the American Indians were was a mystery to many with different people showing how they were part of some other group from the Bible. In fact, people wrote books, about it.

I have concluded that it's important to understand how and why there are religious inspirational writings in the first place. These notions are ancient.

In the case of the BOM, the ideas were based on the ideas/notions/beliefs of the times, especially around the American Indians of the area and the belief in a link to a Biblical lineage.

As late as the 1980's Readers Digest published a huge book on the religious history of the US which included Joseph Smith Jr and other writers that dedicated their lives to their theory of the Biblical lineage of the American Indians of the area.
(I've use the reference in older posts.)

Fraud, lies, scam? Ahh..not so fast. It's part of the same kind of history patterns of almost all religions, metaphysical, supernatural, visionary claims of the divine that is believed by faith and spiritual witness.

The Kinderhook Plates are interesting as they were used as a hoax to prove that Joseph Smith Jr was not a translator... but who knows! :-) He translated them! :-) This is the kind of spiritual visionary power that religious leaders claim or aspire to in many cases. Very clever, actually.

What has been quite amazing to me is how the small beginnings turned into a many generational heritage and church for a whole section of Americans and the many who immigrated just to be part of it. Very effective missionary work for the times. Of course, the people were uneducated, generally, believed they would get free land, etc. and would prosper, which was not always the case, but it worked.

And so, we have today, a world wide religion that has succeeded in part because of the leadership that held it together,the believers that kept it alive, generation to generation as their heritage, and kept building a huge financial base.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 12:00PM by SusieQ#1.

gets credit for keeping it alive in isolation(in part) in Utah Territory. That core is still alive and well!

http://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Ancient-Americas-Robert-Dolezal/dp/0895771837/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326654526&sr=1-10

If you find a copy of this book, grab it! It's one of the best books on how people understood their world in the US before Columbus.

Look up Lord Kingsborough who was convinced that the Indians of Mexico were directly descended from Israel's Ten Lost Tribes. He spent a fortune reproducing volumes of Aztec codices that he claimed illustrated Biblical Events. He published a book in 1831 on his findings
LINK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_King,_Viscount_Kingsborough

Easy. All you need is a credulous group of people. Then, once you've gotten their emotional and psychological investment, make up explanations for all the problems that arise. Joseph was very good at massaging problems, re-explaining things later so they made sense, and apologists today are still doing it. And with a credulous people, all you need is one apologist to say "everything is okay" for everyone else to believe it.

Many thinking people find their way out, but there are feeling ones out there who would much rather die than discover the church a fraud, simply because of the overall investment they've made.

Hi Susie and kimball,

Very good points.

Yes, it's amazing (frightening) to think of how something so big could have had such small beginnings, but it does make sense. Joey happened to have the right personality, interest, and "talent" to capitalize on the religious currents that were going through New York. He drew from a gullible public, and even though comparatively few people joined his religion, enough did to kindle the fire. The church grew in isolation in Utah, in the same way that new species emerge in Darwin's theory when they split off from a larger group and become geographically isolated.

So, we can have some sense of how things got going--how Mormonism emerged. But let's not forget something vitally important:

Mormonism is FALSE!

Why would anyone willingly want to build his or her life on a false foundation of ideology? Is religion something that's needed by people who aren't able to think critically? Surely it has some positive effects for its congregants. Otherwise, why would it continue to exist? But if so, what could those effects possibly be?

We can speculate: a sense of community; something to do; a pool of similar people to date; emotional and material support when needed, etc. In other words, perhaps the benefits of a close-knit community keep the core of Mormonism alive today, even though it's false. It may be false, but that doesn't mean that it's not useful.

What do you think?

And, if everyone decided that anything false needed to be eradicated, then what would replace religions such as Mormonism?

GP

Gay Philosopher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Susie and kimball,
>
> Very good points.
>
I take a different perspective and come to a different conclusion.
Mormonism is True God Myth. It's right out of the official play book! It follows the pattern of older, ancient God Myths (all religions are based on God Myths) with it's belief in the metaphysical, supernatural, and visionary claims by faith. Remember that factual evidence is not part of the pattern.

Mormonism is part of American history. It's the heritage of a whole group of people many with roots in Europe.
It's built on Christianity: Campbelism and Protestantism, Methodistism, and other religious views of the times.

It took root because of the times.
Some reading for background references:
D Michael Quinn "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View
http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=132665

Mysteries of the Ancient Americas The World Before Columbus (Readers Digest 1987)
http://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Ancient-Americas-Robert-Dolezal/dp/0895771837/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326654526&sr=1-1

An author from the above book and his findings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_King,_Viscount_Kingsborough

Then I'd recommend:
The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=d+michael+quinn#/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=power+of+myth&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Apower+of+myth

And this series in video:

http://www.mevio.com/episode/92858/the-power-of-myth-with-joseph-cambell

These references I listed are the core of why I understand Mormonism as an American Religious Tribe -- God Myth and why it makes sense as that is how it operates.

I'm baffled why critics of the Spalding-Rigdon theory expect that Rigdon, Cowdery, Pratt, etc., would have ratted on Smith...when in so doing they incriminate themselves!

I personally find that their codependant relationships even after they separated is even more incriminating. They were obviously holding back. Why?

TBMs say it's because their testimonies were so sure that they couldn't deny it even in their contempt for Smith.

I say they couldn't deny it because they would have exposed themselves to jail time for fraud, because they were in on the gig!

If people did that, then all anti and ex Mormons would be confessing they lied about it too.

The last thing people want to do is confess they were part of a fraud that hurt other people. All these guys were around long enough to see the turmoil this religion caused.

How many MLM leaders have ever stood up and said they knew they were defrauding the people on the down lines?

amos2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with your analysis. +1

Who on the ground floor of Scientology ever ratted out L. Ron Hubbard? Come to think of it, many ex-Scientologists HAVE denounced the fraud, but it seems to be going strong because people believe in its claims to give you special knowledge that was revealed to one special man and become a superior being (and tell you not to read anti- material).

Sound familiar?

Even if Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon by himself, those who said they sat and wrote for him have to have some sort of part in the whole scheme. The witnesses had to know full well that they didn't see and handle those non-existent plates.

I agree with Serena. This just isn't "The Church" issue. This goes back thousands of years with numerous "faiths", either Christian or Eastern Mystics...

For instance, how can anyone who is a practicing Catholic look at Catholic history, the Inquisitions, the slaughter of indigenous peoples of the Western Hemishpere, the creation of the Mary cult, etc. and not think "What the ????" The creation of Islam is no better, conversion by military invasion (imagine how life would be different for all of us if Charles Martel had lost the Battle of Tours?), a holy book that is just as dubious as The Book of Mormon or the Bible, and terrorist behavior.

Judaism isn't off the hook by any means. The God of the Old Testament that ordered the extermination of the tribes of Palestine, the brutal treatment of women, the execution of family members if they didn't honor their parents, or stoning of other Hebrews if they didn't obey the commandments. As Randolph Churchill once commented on reading the Bible for the first time, "Gog, God is a shit!"

We could go on, the spread of early Buddhism by military conquest, etc.

"The Church" will survive just as other religions have survived.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 04:47PM by tensolator.