This is my perspective and conclusion.


Mormonism is True God Myth. It's right out of the official play book! It follows the pattern of older, ancient God Myths (all religions are, for the most part, based on God Myths) with it's belief in the metaphysical, supernatural, and visionary claims by faith. Remember that factual evidence is not part of the pattern.

Mormonism is part of American history. It's the heritage of a whole group of people many with roots in Europe.
It's built on Christianity: Campbelism and Protestantism, Methodistism, and other religious views of the times with it's own unique music, language, dress, costuming, architecture, sacred writings, ecclesiastical organizational leadership, etc.
It took root, mainly, because of the times.


Some reading for background references:
D Michael Quinn "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View

http://www.amazon.com/Early-Mormonism-Magic-World-View/dp/1560850892/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=132665

Mysteries of the Ancient Americas The World Before Columbus (Readers Digest 1987)

http://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Ancient-Americas-Robert-Dolezal/dp/0895771837/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326654526&sr=1-1

An author from the above book and his findings:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_King,_Viscount_Kingsborough

Then I'd recommend:
The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=d+michael+quinn#/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=power+of+myth&rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Apower+of+myth

And this series in video: The Power of Myth

http://www.mevio.com/episode/92858/the-power-of-myth-with-joseph-cambell

I also recommend reading some of the original LDS Church history.
Interestingly, much of the original history is documented -- the primary sources are all still available.

Most of these, if not all, are in LDS Church libraries in the Reference Section. I found all of them in the local Institute of Religion Library.

Local libraries also have most of them, or can get them.

At one time much of it was taught in BYU Religion courses at BYU. We own a first edition of one of the books in this edition from a BYU course in the 50's.

Some of the best info comes from this series:
"Readings in L.D.S. Church History from Original Manuscripts" 3 Vol's by William E. Berrett & Alma P Burton

"History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" 7 Vol's by Joseph Smith Jr.

Journal of Discourses 26 Vol's.

An official published history:

"A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
6 Vol's by B H Roberts

pg. 88 Other Psychics Than the Prophet
"The fact was that Joseph Smith was not the only psychic in the vicinity of Palmyra."
(I own this set in paperback.)

I often quote from these as this is where we learn about the account of finding the "Nephite Record" "Breastplate" and "Urim and Thummim" and the involvement of the family.


This is a partial reference list that I have used as the core of why I understand Mormonism as an American Religious Tribe -- God Myth and why it makes sense as that is how I have lived it for many decades, and how I have observed it operates. It's also why it's so difficult to leave if it's your heritage, familial, and societal core environment.

In conclusion:

Each of us comes to our own personal conclusions about Mormonism that reflect our experiences in living it. Mine is naturally colored greatly be the fact that I was a young adult convert from Protectionism and a family of several generations of ministers.

Several decades later, I determined that I could no longer accept the metaphysical, supernatural, "magical world view" and visionary claims of the LDS Church as the basis for a religion that controlled every single part of my life. I no longer saw a need for a "true church" or a "restored church" or any of the other claims. So, I changed my mind, and left it - which was a lengthy process dealing with those believers that took my choice personally as a betrayal, and rejection.

I am happy to report that we all survived well-- takes people a long time, sometimes to adjust to our major changes. On the whole I can say that I have long ago made peace with my past religious views, settled on what makes sense to me, and live my life with as much as a peaceful, harmonious manner as possible. I have no animosity toward believers of any stripe, live with and love Mormons, and many other religious believers. It's important to me, in this stage of my life, to remain neutral about religious beliefs, and to respect and honor other people's rights to their personal belief systems. (I want the same in return and on the whole, it works quite well!)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 03:00PM by SusieQ#1.

Thanks Susie. I love that you have such a peaceful and accepting attitude towards LDS individuals even though you want no part of it. When you mention LDS church libraries do you mean the library within the church buildings?

angelina5 Wrote:
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> Thanks Susie. I love that you have such a peaceful
> and accepting attitude towards LDS individuals
> even though you want no part of it. When you
> mention LDS church libraries do you mean the
> library within the church buildings?


There are several LDS libraries. The largest in our area was the Institute of Religion Library. It's open to the public. Many of the books I referenced are in the REFERENCE SECTION and cannot be checked out. Some are available in public libraries, however.

I did some reading in the Institute Library in our area. That was fun! :-)

PS: I have thought long and hard about the attitude I want from my loved ones and friends and have tried my best to be gracious and kind which is what I want in return. It has to do with owning my own power and knowing what is about me and what is about someone else.

EDIT: One more comment: there are libraries in most of the Ward/Stake Buildings. They may have some of the same books that the Institutes do, but it's usually not easy to use the local Ward/Stake libraries. You'd just have to check with them.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 03:36PM by SusieQ#1.

He fooled some of the local populace, managed to fleece them of their money, all the while knowing that it was all pretense. Smith was a fraud, and he knew it, and I think his wife was in on it, as were Rigdon and Cowdery, and probably others. Eventually they get so caught up in it that it starts to become real to them. They lose the boundary line between fact and fantasy. He knew he was as much of a fraud when he was pretending to be able to find buried treasure and water. He went to elaborate, ridiculous lengths to try to lend credence to his tall tales. This is called perpetrating a hoax, pretending to have ancient writings. The members thought and continue to think that the plates were real, and they've elevated Smith et. al to mythical status, but a 180 year old hoax does not fit the definitions of "myth". A con scheme with a clearly known perpetrator/s is not myth.

Is Scientology mythical too? It's the same kind of thing. Hubbard was the same kind of hoaxter as Smith.

1: a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon b : parable, allegory

(not traditional - Smith made it up, with some help from local stories going around, like the imagined origins of the native population - they were just tall tales to him)



2: a popular belief or tradition that has grown up around something or someone; especially : one embodying the ideals and institutions of a society or segment of society <seduced by the American myth of individualism — Orde Coombs> b : an unfounded or false notion

(What is currently mormonism has little to do with actual history, ancient or 19th century - Smith and his cohorts have gained mythical status, or characteristics have been assigned to them that they just didn't have.)

3: a person or thing having only an imaginary or unverifiable existence

Yeah, in this respect, it's a myth, as in it's imaginary, but certainly not a "true" god myth. It's based on whitewashing and outright lies and suppression of reality, history and facts.

If I was other than I am, I'd be uncomfortable with that too. But I call a spade a spade. A garden-mud pinchpot is not a Ming era vase, and never will be.

serena Wrote:
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>

Well, that's your opinion. Doesn't bother me in the least. It really has nothing to do with me and my life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 03:34PM by SusieQ#1.

The breastplate was wrapped in a handkerchief??? That's one damn big handkerchief, to wrap up a breastplate in, to fit a full-grown man! Come on, really? But she could feel through the thin material - but couldn't see through it? Yeah, um, sure, right. It's ridiculous.

serena Wrote:
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What we find "ridiculous" was credible to those at the time. That's the point. People believed the stories.

I get a kick out of Joseph Smith Jr being called a "psychic" in the original history.:-)

There is a whole section on which psychics were reliable and which ones were not according to BH Roberts and others he quoted.

Oh to be a fly on the wall when all of this was taking place! :-)

When did Lucy start telling the whopper about the breastplate small enough to be wrapped up in one handkerchief? Must have been either small enough to fit a really tiny person, or the handkerchief must have been huge, like 30"x 30" at least. Handkerchiefs weren't and aren't that big, not nearly.

What were B.H. Roberts' sources for this "history"? They were the accounts of the perpetrators themselves to cover up evidence of fraud.

serena Wrote:
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You can research those questions. I don't have the answers -- only what I quoted from the books I used as references.

A little about B H Roberts...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._H._Roberts


Check out Studies of the Book of Mormon - he appears to be less than a believer of the claims....
Quote from article: "Mormon historians have debated whether the manuscript reflects Robert's doubts or was a case of his playing the devil's advocate."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 04:05PM by SusieQ#1.

Evenutually B.H. couldn't call a horse a tapir or even a chicken anymore, and faced up that it was always and ever a fraud - my words, not his.

serena Wrote:
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> Evenutually B.H. couldn't call a horse a tapir or
> even a chicken anymore, and faced up that it was
> always and ever a fraud - my words, not his.


Do you have that reference handy where he calls the BOM a fraud? I don't seem to have it. Thanks.

You wrote:

"I think it's due to the discomfort accepting that you, your husband and friends belong/ed to a farcical, fraudulent, money-grubbing cult. If I was other than I am, I'd be uncomfortable with that too. But I call a spade a spade. A garden-mud pinchpot is not a Ming era vase, and never will be."

Couldn't have said it better.

Timothy

Our perspectives, conclusions will naturally vary depending on a lot of factors.

We won't all have the same opinion which is also based on a variety of factors and experiences. Our family, our personality, our emotional state, and on and on play heavily into how we make our conclusions.

And that is just fine.

It's not about right or wrong, in my view - it's about what makes sense based on my research, observations, and experiences.

It's all subject to change, also, in my experience.

Some of the original history as recorded by B H Roberts. This is not the story that is told today, nor what the missionaries teach to investigators.
I would guess that most reading this account, never heard of it, but it was common knowledge at time time in the early 1900's.

REFERENCE:

"A Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." by B.H. Roberts
Church Historian (1857-1933), Deseret Book Co., 1930.


Most of these early accounts are in Vol 1.

I have the set in paperback - another interesting story of how I found them many years later in the Institute library just sitting on the shelf and not cataloged.

" "A Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." by B.H. Roberts


VOL 1 "How the Book of Mormon was Obtained"

These books are in the LDS Data base on CD, also in their libraries (Ward/Stake/Institute of Religion)in the REFERENCE section.

I own the whole set in paperback which I purchased in the late 70s before they were discontinued.


A few notes:
B H Roberts says that they were dressed "for riding" by taking the horse and spring wagon of Mr. Knight (some would call this stealing, as they did not ask permission of Mr. Knight who was a guest in his home) and went to the "hill Cumorah, and in he presence of Moroni obtained the Nephite record, the breast-plate and Urim and Thummim.

pg. 87, "Early the next morning, Mr. Knight discovered both his horse and wagon were gone, suspected some "rogue had stolen them. Lucy Smith volunteered no information as to Joseph having made use of the horse and wagon, but tried to pacify Mr. Knight with the idea that they were but temporarily out of the way."

When Joseph returned home, he took his mother aside and showed her the Urim and Thummim which he had evidently detached from the breast plate and concealed on his own person when depositing the plates...he seemed to have kept the instrument constantly about him after that time as by means of it he could at will be made aware of approaching danger to the record."

The next chapter is entitled:
pg. 88 Other Psychics Than the Prophet
"The fact was that Joseph Smith was not the only psychic in the vicinity of Palmyra."

He had previously asked Lucy (his mother) very early in the morning if she had a chest with a lock and key but she could not locate one.

This is the reason Joseph pg. 86 "concealed them temporarily, in the woods some two or three miles distant. He found a fallen birch log that was much decayed .....carefully cutting the bark and removing sufficient of the decayed wood to admit ...the plates, ...they were deposited in the cavity, the bark drawn together again and as far as possible all signs of the log having been disturbed obliterated."

Pg 93 - "The Breastplate of Urim and Thummim

"It has been several times remarked that with the plates on which a brief history of the ancient American peoples was engrave, there was an ancient breast-plate to which, when the Prophet took possession of it, the Urim and Thummim were attached.

This breast-plate it appears the Prophet did not bring home with him when he brought the record. But a few days later, according to a statement by Lucy Smith, he came into the house from the field one afternoon and after remaining a a short time put on his "great coat" and left the house.

On his returning the mother was engaged in an upper room of the house preparing oilcloth for painting - it will be remembered that this was an art she has followed for some years. Joseph called to her and asked her to come down stairs.

To this she answered she could not then leave her work, but Joseph insisted and she came downstairs and entered the room where he was whereupon he placed in her hands the Nephite breast plate herein alluded to.

'It was wrapped in a a thin muslin handkerchief,' she explains, 'so thin that I could feel it's proportions without any difficulty'.

It was concave on one side, convex on the other and extended from the neck downwards as far as the center of the stomach of a man of extraordinary size. It had four straps of the same material, for the purpose of fastening it to the breast, two of which ran back to go over the shoulders and the other two were designed to fasten to the hips.

They were just the width of two of my fingers (for I measured them). and they had holes in the end of them, to be convenient in fastening. After I had examined it, Joseph placed it in the chest with the Urim and Thummin."
[paragraphs added for ease in reading]"

Troubles keeping the Nephite Record out of nefarious hands of other psychics.)

Vol 1
Pg 90
Was the Nephrite Record in Danger
He goes on.....
These reflections indulged, we may now return to the statement with which they began-viz,Joseph Smith was not the only psychic in the vicinity of Palmyra. A Miss Chase, sister of Willard Chase, the Methodist class elder, already mentioned, had for some time been accredited with psychic powers of the mind, and practiced "crystal-gazing;" and besides this , remarkable as it may seem, parties in the neighborhood of the smith home, numbering some ten or twelve men sent a distance of sixty or seventy miles for a psychic-"conjuror" they called him --to come to Palmyra and to discover the whereabouts of "Joe Smith's gold bible."

The elder Smith learned of the arrival of this person at the home of Willard Chase, and heard him boast in the presence of his employers that he would "have them plates in spite of Joe Smith or all the devils in hell."

The day after taking possession of the Nephite record, the young Prophet was offered the job of digging a well for Mrs. Wells, of Macedon, a village some three miles west of Palmyra, and the family standing much in need of the money promised for the work, Joseph immediately accepted the employment...However, he never finished because of the threat of the other "conjurer" on his trail.

This is the beginning of the tale of how Joseph came back and assured his father and family that the record was saFe, was hidden near the home and Hyrum gave him a chest, with a lock and key and Joseph wrapped them in a farmer's "smock. and then he went through the woods .."his enemies were evidently on the watch for him, for three times he was assaulted by as many different persons; but being strong and athletic by dint of blows and flight he threw them off and finally reached home utterly exhausted from the excitement and the fatigue."

This is when he got his father and Mr Knight and Mr Stoal to search for the assailants (which was fruitless)
and Hyrum came with the cheST with the lock and key.

"It seems that in knocking down his third assailant, Joseph had dislocated his thumb ....and he requested his father to put it in place.
Joseph then remained at home with his family to secure the sacred record entrusted to him where he worked on the farm with his brothers."


(This is a short excerpt from one section of a series of several books of LDS Church history and later found it's way into the Book of Mormon.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 03:30PM by SusieQ#1.

What is that? Or what's the alternative? Don't all religions have a god myth?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 03:43PM by munchybotaz.

munchybotaz Wrote:
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> What is that? Or what's the alternative? Don't all
> religions have a god myth?

They are predominately myths with a deity and sometimes a savior at the core of their stories. Every group of human beings/society known to mankind has some kind of creation story, for instance. It's a myth that is believed by each particular group, some take it literally.

Some seem to have more credibility as they are told around some still standing places such as the Christian stories, for instance, in Israel and other places.

Many of the Greek and Hebrew mythology has found it's way into the religions also.

It's my view that Mormonism has done the same thing, answers the same questions with it's own specific God Myth that humans have about where they came from, where they are going, why they are here, with specific religions rituals around important dates such as birth, coming of age, marriage, death.

Reading my references will add to that understanding and why I use it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 03:50PM by SusieQ#1.

SusieQ#1 Wrote:
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Didn't mean to post twice.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 04:07PM by SusieQ#1.

It's the distinction you seem to be making by calling it a *true* god myth. What would not be a true god myth?

munchybotaz Wrote:
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> It's the distinction you seem to be making by
> calling it a *true* god myth. What would not be a
> true god myth?


I use the word true god myth as opposed to a false god myth.
It's a play on the LDS claiming it's "true"! :-)

munchy: "What would not be a true god myth?"

susie: "a false god myth"


sigh

grubbygert Wrote:
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> munchy: "What would not be a true god myth?"
>
> susie: "a false god myth"
>
>
> sigh


I'll make my point clear, again.
I use the word: "True God Myth" (a bit redundant, I know) as a play on the LDS using the word "true".
Some say the LDS Church is a false church, I say, no, it's a "true church" in that it is a "true God Myth".
Mythology (as in Greek mythology, for instance, is not about reliable facts and evidences. Neither is a God Myth.

My error was assuming that people would automatically "get" my use of the word "true" re: God Myths as it relates to Mormonism being "true." :-)

truly you have a dizzying intellect

grubbygert Wrote:
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> truly you have a dizzying intellect


I'm cracking up here! Mormons use the term "true" all the time. I thought people would "get it"! Guess not!

munchybotaz Wrote:
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> What is that? Or what's the alternative? Don't all
> religions have a god myth?

Yes, and I call those all "true" god myths.

Myth= Bulls#$t so Mormanism = True God Bulls#$t... When did Bull#$t become true..?

See my note above on why I used the word: "true" -- as a play on how the LDS use the term as their religion being "true."

One person's treasure is another person's trash and visa versa. Lots of different opinions ---- none of which I would ever consider taking personally.

serena Wrote:
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> n/t

Well, hmmm, let me think, a false god myth would be a story that is not a myth. Maybe it's a real story that someone claims as a myth? :-)

Maybe if I put quotes around the word: true, it would make my point better.

It's a play on how believers claim Mormonism is "true" and others claim it's a "false" religion, for instance.
I just clarified those statements by the words: "true God Myth" ..that's all there is to it. Just a play on the word: true vs false.

I agree that the claims are not verifiable as factual, however, that is not the point in religious claims. Never has been. So, I use the category of a god myth as it's been used in the past, and stuck "true" onto my label. Wasn't necessary. It's redundant, of course, but it was my little joke, that apparently some reading here didn't catch. So I hope I cleared that up. :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2012 06:11PM by SusieQ#1.