Most east cost/west coast folks don't give a rats arse if they have pioneer ancestors, but if I had ancestors who were mormons I would have wished that they had just a little bit more sense. After reading Devil's Gate about the handcarts I have to say that BY played people like a fool to save money, even with the sucessful hand cart treks, people nearly died.

I see where you are coming from but if my ancestors hadn't joined the cult I wouldn't be alive.

lapsed Wrote:
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> I see where you are coming from but if my
> ancestors hadn't joined the cult I wouldn't be
> alive.

It is more a philosophical question than one of straight genetics.

You have a point, sometimes I wonder that too..why did my ancestors fall for it? Why did they come from Europe, buy one way tickets to America with intentions of never coming back all because of JS or BY? Why did they leave their families? What I finally realized though is it wasn't solely a religious decision--economically life sucked for them--it was continue suffering in coal mines or try for a new life in America.

The way I see it is--picture Greece now, the economic problems are wreaking havoc on families--
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/business-tech/debt-crisis/120110/greek-children-suffer-the-consequences-the-economic-c

Now imagine a promise of a new life, a better life in America, where you can care for your children, there is a built in community that will help you, in fact Christ himself is coming in just a few short years to save the people! Wouldn't you go? Wouldn't you take the risk? Here is a missionary from this church, saying it is all true! They are going to live a United Order, take care of each other! They are gathering in the West away from tyrannical governments..

Poor people from Europe were in those handcart companies that BY left, poor people who came for a better life, hundreds of factory workers without jobs and little knowledge of agriculture..they came and got screwed..literally and figuratively--women made plural wives without knowledge beforehand; people died because of BY's actions or lack of action...forced to later pay back the little help BY did give them..

What would it be like to be treking along with those handcarts and suddenly waking up and realizing your life isn't going to be better? You have no way out because you used all of your savings and your families savings to get you the boat ticket? You traded one sucky life for another. That to live, you needed to go all the way..that even if you didn't believe in BY anymore or any religious aspect, the mere living required you stay with the group and go along?

Gullible maybe, but I'd give our ancestors more credit than that, they were brave, strong individuals who were trying to do their best for themselves and their families. At some point reality caught up with the romantized version of life in America and they couldn't go back. They didn't have the option of a emailed in resignation, it was all or nothing..they had something to prove.

I agree Jessica, especially with your last paragraph.

You can still be proud of your pioneer ancestors and still regret their gullibility.

First convert, in my opinion, was a teen runaway and possibly, mentally ill. She lived with Emma and Jos. Smith, was married off to a widower with children that needed a wife, and then he died. She wound up in Utah...a plyg wife of another man.

Another was a convert out of PA. Since she was taken away at 11 from her Mom, and moved to Utah...she had little to say about her "Mormonism".

One couple was in the JG Willie handcart company. They survived, but compared to their life prior to joining Mormonism, life in Utah....sucked. They stayed faithful.
http://tellmystorytoo.com/members-willie-handcart-company
And the link about is a result of the stupid reinactments that Mormon's now do. These are in "the summer". It makes me angry. Little children were freezing and starving to death due to the stupidity of their parents and the leaders of Mormonism.

The rest were mainly based on the husband converting and bringing the family. Most of them wound up polygamist until the last died out. One line was into the pure blood lines...meaning...Dad impregnated daughters, then married them off to some relative/friend of his. Sickly perverted.

I grew up hearing stories about Great Grandma and her lost love when her Dad forced her to marry his best friend as one of many wives. It involved property. (sigh). I have a photo of the old man (whose DNA I carry), holding his future wife on his lap. Oh, God...maybe they all were mentally ill??



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2012 02:33PM by wings.

wings Wrote:
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> I grew up hearing stories about Great Grandma and
> her lost love when her Dad forced her to marry his
> best friend as one of many wives. It involved
> property. (sigh). I have a photo of the old man
> (whose DNA I carry), holding his future wife on
> his lap. Oh, God...maybe they all were mentally
> ill??


wings Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I grew up hearing stories about Great Grandma and
> her lost love when her Dad forced her to marry his
> best friend as one of many wives. It involved
> property. (sigh). I have a photo of the old man
> (whose DNA I carry), holding his future wife on
> his lap. Oh, God...maybe they all were mentally
> ill??

Yuck, that is pretty sick. but Warren Jeffs did that with his teenage sex slaves.

A part of me is disappointed and wishes that they weren't so easily mislead. If I were to still exist, I don't think I'd want them to have had more sense. My experiences within Mormonism have crafted an identity, an ideology and character for me. I don't think I would trade anything for what I've learned from those experiences. I wouldn't be the same person, I wouldn't have had the same experiences outside of Mormonism as I did within. I've learned a lot that I most likely wouldn't have learned if I were born into a non-Mormon family.

As a result of my mental dissociation from Mormonism at a young age, I clung onto Internet discussion boards and chat rooms, mostly dealing with global politics and skepticism, and my experiences there really broadened my perception of the world. I don't think I would've done the same had I been satisfied with my family, my culture and my peers.

I look at my peers now, eighteen and older, and I just can't see myself pursuing the same interests and holding the same convictions had I been satisfied with what I mentioned above. I've come to the realization that in many cases, satisfaction breeds indifference.

I've evolved and grown with pain, and I don't regret any of it.

Not all the converts made it to SLC. Many of them stayed where they landed and got jobs and some dropped out before the hand cart trek. I think that those people where the one who were more inspired by a new life than by the religion part of it, or the religion part soon paled.

Most Americans were the product of immigrants but non Mormons are not big into genealogy so others have lost the story of their ancestors. My family is Pennsylvania Dutch which means that they came from the German / Swiss/ Austrian area.

"Not all the converts made it to SLC. Many of them stayed where they landed and got jobs and some dropped out before the hand cart trek. I think that those people where the one who were more inspired by a new life than by the religion part of it, or the religion part soon paled."

I agree, they were the smart ones. Those that didn't stay in SLC were as well. I can see why people would be gullible, they were looking for something more..but I would hate to label them solely as gullible because there were many factors involved in their decision.

I haven't seen this movie yet, although a family member who is very much into history has (and he reviewed it as horrible at showing real history)--I think the comments here are very telling--

http://www.mormonheretic.org/2011/06/08/17-miracles-the-faithful-and-foolhardy-willie-handcart-company/

"They were set on a mission of horror and they did it because they trusted their leaders. Those that wanted (and several who did) to stay behind were critisized for being apostates."

Wished they weren't so gullible. I was angry for a while at the my ancestors for not being able to see through the con because I ended up wasting half of my life in it.

On a related note--While TBM, i was reading some mormon/anti-mormon dialogue sparring back and forth. One sentence really stuck out to me went something like this: "Look, I get how a person could be born into that crazy religion but as soon as they reach adulthood, get away from their parents, if they don't then have the brains to see it for what it is, it becomes THEIR fault."

That really hit me and got me looking at the church through a less biased lense.

It's a question of whether I would be prouder of someone who endures anything for what they know is right, or someone who uses their head at all times and avoids dangerous and fraudulent situations. I can see the merit in both, but I'd be much prouder of the latter.

By the way, I'm directly descended from David P. Kimball, who was one of the 3 boys who carried the dying emigrants across the frozen Sweetwater River and later died from the effects (after having enough progeny to lead to me). Yes, I am proud of that.

My husband is descended from the Martin & Willie handcart companies as well although I don't remember through whom without asking him.

I've read a lot about the Hole in the Rock bunch who settled Blanding and Bluff, Utah. They are always painted as a heroic bunch, and of course they were in their own way, but I always wondered why they were so brainwashed that they would ever set out on such a journey in the first place. Not to mention that other known routes were available.

Around this part of the country (Moab) I've run into some of their descendents, and they always mention it with great pride. I would personally cringe and not talk about having relatives that were that brainwashed to leave everything they'd worked hard for and go settle wherever some so-called prophet told them to go.

But such is the nature of cults.

I'm a convert but I do know that those in my family with Mormon heritage are, for the most part grateful for them, as they would not be here if not for them.
Mormonism is part of American History. And, as always it's: "The Good, The Bad, The Ugly."

We aren't natural-born cynics. Not til we've been burned do we become more wary of others. The 17th century offered a lot of examples of people conniving others, i.e. snake-oil salesman. Oddly, there seems to be just as much of it going on today when you'd think people would know better. Just look at all the ponzi schemes. Seems there are never a shortage of people to be scammed as there are people who want to scam.

"We aren't natural-born cynics."

Some of us are.

I've been researching this subject for the past several months. I wanted to have an understanding of why my ancestors joined the Mormon Church. I have wondered myself how they could be so gullible. To figure this out I traced my ancestors back to the point where they joined and then started to research what life was like for them at the time. After doing a little research, I came to the conclusion that they weren’t really all that gullible. They were sold! At the time, 1851-2, polygamy was just a rumor in England and The Millennial Star was reporting on how wonderful life was in the Utah Territory. Beautiful, abundant and full of gold! I don’t have the exact reference but that is overall what it said. I’m proud of them for having the courage to leave their home country and for wanting a better life. I don’t think they really knew what they were getting into. I also think that once they were in there really was no way out for them.

Tressa Wrote:
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I’m proud of them for having the
> courage to leave their home country and for
> wanting a better life. I don’t think they
> really knew what they were getting into. I also
> think that once they were in there really was no
> way out for them.

Other immigrants were coming to the US for a better life, but didn't come over for the religion. Since the immigrants had to pay their own way over there was nothing but faith to keep them once they were here. Many didn't go to SLC and dropped out of the faith.

I wonder what differentiented those who dropped out from those who stayed. Those who dropped out found (hopefully) a better life without a crazy religion. I believe that BY was telling his saints that the second coming was around the corner and they better get to SLC pronto if they wanted to be saved. Rather big promises to be sure.

Not much I can do about the past anyway...and if they hadn't come to Utah, I probably wouldn't be livin' the good life in Alberta...instead of in Connecticut...

There was a lot of people speculating about the imminent return of Christ at that time. So it probably didn't sound that weird. Many of the other doctrines of the church were also common theories at the time, so it probably sounded reasonable. There was a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment so a story about God restoring his original church would have made some sense. Why would God only have prophets for the old testament? Why can't a prophet be from English ancestors? There is a lot in the BoM that appeals to the spirit of the time. I am sure BY and the other missionaries he led in England talked up how wonderful life in America was. They actively hid and denied any rumors of polygamy. So I don't blame my ancestors for getting caught up in the dream. It is actually only fairly recently that the information to disprove the churches claims has become easily accessible to a large number of people.

I am sure many of us have, perhaps to a lesser degree, allowed ourselves to be caught up in the latest fad or craze. Many of us have believed lies others have told us. It is part of human life. I am proud that they were risk takers and willing to face an unknown world and unknown dangers in the hopes of a better life for themselves and their families. Any blame or shame lies squarely on the shoulders of the men who told the lies that made them believe the church.

I also wonder if many of them would have immigrated anyway. The church just provided a reason make the leap.

Three out of four of my grandparents were from hard-working, respectable, independent-thinking, educated families-- and frankly, the women especially kicked ass.

The one Mormon line is pretty respectable too-- albeit in a different way. They were good people, hard-working and they were tough in the face of harsh landscapes and hard times. But in lots of ways they created the adversity they were up against, by their Mormon ways. I would have respected them more if they had had the presence of mind to reject obvious nonsense and wacky leadership.

I'm not so sure they deserve to be ridiculed.
Sure they were mistaken, but when I read some of those old journals and letters, I find people in my bloodline who are much stronger than I am. Despite our current knowledge that they had been hornswoggled, bamboozled, and yea, even unto being had, they stayed strong and firm because they fully believed it.

So on the one hand it is hard to see what they went through because of a fraud, but on the other hand it is inspiring to see what my ancestors did in the name of faith.

I didn't have Mormon pioneer ancestors but apparently some ancestor of mine saw a group of them heading to the promised land and wrote a letter to a relative back east saying he hoped the Mormons would go out to Utah, sit on a cactus and prick some sense into themselves. Somehow my dad inherited it because my mom is LDS and she framed it an hung it on the wall in their hall.

It's the only thing I've told mom I specifically hopes she leaves me in her will. What she does with the rest of her stuff is up to her but that letter would have a place of honor in my home.

CA girl Wrote:
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> I didn't have Mormon pioneer ancestors but
> apparently some ancestor of mine saw a group of
> them heading to the promised land and wrote a
> letter to a relative back east saying he hoped the
> Mormons would go out to Utah, sit on a cactus and
> prick some sense into themselves. Somehow my dad
> inherited it because my mom is LDS and she framed
> it an hung it on the wall in their hall.
>
> It's the only thing I've told mom I specifically
> hopes she leaves me in her will. What she does
> with the rest of her stuff is up to her but that
> letter would have a place of honor in my home

OMG that is too funny !

I've been watching "Into the West" series on Netflix. I just started it. A lot of bad things happened settling the west, but a lot of good with the bad came of it. The good and bad were woven in to the settling of America.

It is my understanding Mormons contributed greatly in the pioneering of America. I am not of Mormon heritage but I respect them. I believe it served its purpose and its purpose has been served. It has involved into an entirely different animal than it was then. But they still believe in hard work and education, and standing up for what they believe in.

I have never met nicer and funnier and more intelligent people than are on this board, and many are from pioneer heritage.

This is an interesting subject. If my ancestors had stayed in Europe, I would be living in Switzerland/Germany. I still have relatives in Switzerland that some of my US cousins have visited. They seem content and happy living there without Moism in their lives. It certainly is interesting to ponder.

Most of my ancestors came to Utah after the railroad. I am not certain that my standard of living would be much different had they stayed in Europe. Quien sabe?

My ancestors were in the Willey handcart company in 1856, but when they got to Florence (Winter Quarters) and said WTF? We're staying here until we can go with a wagon train...they stayed there at least until 1860...came to Utah and left the church. Poverty was rampant in England at the time and the missionaries lied to them (some things never change) and told them Utah was the land of Milk, Honey and Postum and they fell for it. So, I'm grateful that they wised up along the way. Wish I had wised up earlier on.

I have ancestors who came from both England and Sweden after hearing the missionaries and have often wondered what drove them. I have always felt sorry for one great-grandmother who came from Sweden when she was around 20 against the wishes of her entire family, only to be married off to her polygamous husband soon after her arrival in Utah.

I do wonder how they could all stay so gullible, but it certainly was the culture that subsequent generations were born into. But then I read recently the brief 'diary' notes of one great-grandfather who broke with the church, reamed them out, and claimed that no child of his would be raised in the church. Unfortunately it did not stick, as his daughter, my grandmother, obviously converted when she married my grandfather in the temple. I'm sure it was hard to resist in Utah of that era, but drats- another generation plunged into servitude.