For some TBM (temple Mos) out there, (if there are any on this board), can you tell us why you agreed to put on that green apron when Lucifer directed you to do so? I have wondered this for years and it bothers me. I am torn between thinking two different things:
1) that most temple TBMs know very well (and fully believe that they are serving Lucifer and his plans) keeping this from others with the full help of LDS Inc. I must admit that it is a clever plan since millions have fallen for it.......or
2) that millions of temple TBMs didn't understand that it was Lucifer who ordered these aprons to be put on......MILLIONS!

Obviously the first one seems more likely (though frightening for many ppl). I mean having an actual religion pretend to be "of and for Christ" and really serve the personage of Lucifer is the best con game in history.....EVER! In public everything looks hunky dory (the public's opinion in general is that Mos are Christians). But in the temple (where things were supposed to remain secret.....DANG the internet anyway huh?) the openness of Lucifer worship is obvious.
That explains the millions of followers more than TBMs being unable to grasp intellectual concepts like Lucifer telling them to put the apron on. BTW, Lucifer means "angel of light." Is that the light JS said he saw?
What is really going on? Just level with us. THANKS!
For you non-Temple TBMs and nomos - the apron in the temple is thought to contain the power of Lucifer's priesthoods (according to Lucifer himself [portrayed by an actor but you know what I mean] who tells the temple attendees this directly while they are in the temple). Everyone who puts the apron on is supposed to receive this power from Lucifer's priesthoods either directly (for the men) or indirectly (through the men to women) when thay place the apron on themselves. Lucifer is the one who tells the temple attendees to put it on and that apron remains part of their temple clothing forever......and I do mean forever since they are buried in it.
This makes sense in terms of baptizing dead persons too since Lucifer wants souls and doesn't care about physical bodies (or so that is taught by many Christians).

"...the openness of Lucifer worship is obvious."

wtf am i reading???

I know that a lot of people on this board think the ideas of both God and Satan are silly but to me, the real point is that MORMONS believe in God and Satan and how they act on that belief reflects what is really going on in their hearts. That being said, I can honestly say that having done the endowment session probably about 100 times or more before I went inactive, they are not telling people they are worshiping Satan. Maybe some of the higher ups in the church believe they are - which would explain the expression on the faces of some of the GA's. But the rank and file don't even notice Satan's command in the temple film. In fact, the apron is supposed to represent the fig leaves that Adam and Eve put on to hide their nakedness from God. That is why it is green and has leaves embroidered into it. Or, at least that is what most TBMs would tell you if you asked them. It wasn't until I got out of the church that this connection with Satan was pointed out to me.

There are other things I find creepy too, and don't know what to think of them. One is that I suffered from low-grade depression from the time I put my temple garments on til the time I took them off.

Another is the facts on this websites: http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/sinister-sites-temple-square-utah/

And, all the covenants in the temple, which are made to the church rather than the Savior and sound seriously binding. Are you selling your soul then, and to whom? Sometimes I want to go get a cross tattoo, just to make sure I've erased this bad choice of covenant making.

Also, the things discussed in Michael Quinn's book Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. There is a thread going now about how much of Mormonisms beginnings are connected to necromancy and witchcraft and astrology and the occult. If you believe in Satan and the Bible, this has to be disturbing. If Mormons knew a lot of this stuff, believing in Christ like they say they do, they'd be horrified. About 4 months ago, the lesson in YW was about the importance of avoiding things like astrology and condemning "wizards who peep". If you knew about Joseph Smith and what he really got up to, these biblical prohibitions would be a huge OMG. And it was a YW lesson.

Again, the point isn't whether or not Satan exists...it's about the fact Mormons believe in him, yea are obsessed by him and fear him and credit his ability to deceive over Christ's ability to protect. And believing in him, they do all those things you and I mentioned. Where exactly are their hearts? I don't believe the vast majority of them are bad or even trying to be bad. And I definitely don't believe they are intentionally worshiping Satan. If they seem to be, I think it's because they just are as deceived as they fear being.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2012 10:51PM by CA girl.

Ohhhhhh. Myyyyyyy. Thanks for the link.

Wow, me too. Thanks for the link - I've bookmarked it so I can read the information carefully a couple of times. Unreal.

This really bothered me from early on.

I didn't realize it until after my mission, but I attempted to rationalize it that it represented our knowledge of nakedness before god and the knowledge of our sins and the time we succumbed to satan's influence. Therefore maybe it made sense that we follow satan's instruction. I brought this up only once to another person that I knew was liberal enough to have the conversation and they had no idea about it and thought I was wrong.

I did well for a few years getting mystical and crap to try and make this work.

enoughenoch19, please allow me to pick a nit. Satan says his apron is an EMBLEM of his power and priesthoods, not the container of said priesthoods in itself. It's a symbol, IOW.

The general members' aprons are made of simple fig leaves and are green, whereas Satan's is black and covered with occult designs. Satan tells Adam and Eve that they should make an apron to cover their nakedness, lest father see them naked (altho why they should fear the father in this is not made clear, other than the fact they they are now fallen, and aware of shame and guilt). He doesn't imply or state that Adam's apron is connected to his own power and priesthoods.

I've done the endowment ceremony many times and neither myself, nor ANYONE I've ever known, has ever came thought we were worshiping Lucifer.

I think you are reading WAAAAY too much into this. Its just part of the storyline. Christians & Jews don't worship Lucifer because he had Eve eat the fruit. Clearly Lucifer is depicted as the bad guy and the Mormons follow God's instructions throughout the rest of the ceremony. At worst its a hole in the story that Horny Joe never saw.

The evidence that Mormons worship God/Jesus FAR outweighs this one flimsy piece of evidence that they worship Lucifer.

Mormonism may be a scam but they don't worship Lucifer.

Ex-CultMember Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've done the endowment ceremony many times and
> neither myself, nor ANYONE I've ever known, has
> ever came thought we were worshiping Lucifer.
>
> I think you are reading WAAAAY too much into this.
> Its just part of the storyline. Christians & Jews
> don't worship Lucifer because he had Eve eat the
> fruit. Clearly Lucifer is depicted as the bad guy
> and the Mormons follow God's instructions
> throughout the rest of the ceremony. At worst its
> a hole in the story that Horny Joe never saw.
>
> The evidence that Mormons worship God/Jesus FAR
> outweighs this one flimsy piece of evidence that
> they worship Lucifer.
>
> Mormonism may be a scam but they don't worship
> Lucifer.

Joe intended the temple ceremony to be repetitious, mind numbing & hypnotic. Apparently it worked, even on Joe as he was writing the thng.

He tells you to change your clothes and put on the aprons and then he tells you to go to the next room.

Then he closes by threatening you that if you don't live up to the promises and covenants you make this day, " YOU WILL BE IN MY POWER."

He is telling us what is going on. Satan. He is our guide and leader in this portion of the temple and he is being menacing with the idea of frightening you into obedience (submission).

Cult cookie, anyone? Before we go into our magic circle, veiled, exactly like they do in Satanic movies? Where we chant in a strange language like in.... you get my point.

We are those people who are thought to be "Under the control of Satan." Now you know why.

Tell me where's the part where Jesus tells you what to do. Or where the love and forgiveness is mentioned.

I don't think modern Mormons have a clue. Ask one of them if they own a Jupiter stone. Likewise, they don't worship Satan, but I wouldn't swear their founder didn't.

Anagrammy

Thanks everyone....OK I now have a better clarification. Anagrammy says no Lucifer worship is taking place, but that people taking endowments in the temple are obeying Lucifer at THAT point in the Temple ceremony.
Still.........why would anyone want to OBEY Lucifer at any point in a ceremony within a religion supposedly about Christ?
This is really a matter of symantics though........obey is less strong than worship.
But I still don't see why many don't seem to notice this dialogue in the ceremony.
For the record, I don't believe in Lucifer, BUT Mos do and that is why this has always bothered me. I do appreciate the responses. I understand better now.
My next question for those who have been through the temple ceremonies is:
Were your afraid or uneasy at any point during the temple ceremonies? If so, what did you attribute the feeling to? Did any of you leave because you could not go through with it? Or is that even a possibility? What if someone got real sick? Could they leave? Just wondering. I got creeped out watching it on the internet. Thanks again

enoughenoch19 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> But I still don't see why many don't seem to
> notice this dialogue in the ceremony.

Because the temple is MINDNUMBING. It's the same thing, over and over and over again. Even if you don't tune out completely, even if you are not just going through the motions but really trying to "worship" there, your mind just goes numb. In fact, I think that the so-called peace of the temple is just turning your brain off for a short period of time. Like meditation, almost.

> My next question for those who have been through
> the temple ceremonies is:
> Were your afraid or uneasy at any point during the
> temple ceremonies? If so, what did you attribute
> the feeling to?

Yes! I went through with friends right before my mission in 1990. Right after they changed the endowment ceremony. I had read in either Time or Newsweek prior to the changes that "The Mormons have revamped their temple ceremony to make it less violent." That totally freaked me out. So I went in to my endowment session on my guard. It was really weird and scary, however my friends reassured me that it was different at first but once you got used to it, you would understand it better and feel at peace in the temple. Still, I felt a really bad spirit. I put it down to letting a newsmagazine freak me out. Right after that, I went on my mission and going with my MTC group made it seem like it was more OK. BTW, I went with friends because my dad was a nevermo and my mom hadn't gone through the temple because in those days, she still hoped he'd convert and they could go together. None of my other family is LDS, so I went with a few RM friends of mine.

I found the temple ceremony very upsetting and could not stop shaking. That has never happened to me before or since, just the first time I went. CAgirl makes an important point about the MINDNUMBING. Violence loses it's shock value when you hear it over and over. That's why no one laughs when we say the phrase "Virgin Birth."

Did you know when third world natives are first taught the doctrine of the Virgin Birth, they universally laugh? It is an obvious oxymoron and a perfect example of mindnumbing from repetition.

What is it they are trying to desensitize us to? What is the purpose? I think it is a power and control enforcer. If we can get you to put on ridiculous clothes, speak nonsense, watch the same movie over and over, promise to allow yourselves to be murdered in several grisly ways, over and over and over--well--we have you in our power.

Anagrammy

THe only non-white article of clothing is the apron. It is not white for a symbolic reason. The apron represents the impurity and shame that result from disobeying god's commandments. Satan tells adam and eve to wear the apron because he's teaching them to be ashamed of what they've done. That's all there is to it. Next.

I never noticed before that it's Lucifer telling Adam and Eve, ie. the initiates, to put on their aprons to cover their nakedness, but it's true. There's also the idea that the apron is a departure from the perfection in the Garden of Eden. When Adam and Eve covered their nakedness, they were sinning and obeying Lucifer. So, why is the apron, a symbol of that act, a part of the temple garb? Why did we wear the apron into the Celestial room if it was something worn at the urging of Lucifer at the apparent annoyance of God?

I don't believe in God or Satan, but I wonder if Smith was insinuating that nakedness is a higher law than wearing clothes. It seems like the sort of thing he might try to do to get women out of their clothes.

So whatbdomapologists say about the inverted pentagram?

These things are designed to be strange and mysterious so that you spend all of your mental energy trying to figure out what they mean while being impressed by how mysterious it all is. If it made any sense, you would know right off the bat that it didn't make any sense and the whole gig would be up. So don't bother wasting your time trying to make sense of it all, because it was never meant to make any sense in the first place.

Yeah, I remember at weddings when I was a kid at the SLC temple I would see the pentograms. I remember being a fan of Motley Crue and seeing pentograms on their "Shout at the Devil" record and noticing the same satanic pentograms on the temple building and thinking "that is odd?"

Why didn't I look into it further way back when?

CA girl has brought up a very interesting point....MINDNUMBING. The is a word that packs a lot of meaning depending on the context.
Would you say that the portion of the temple where the garden of eden is the setting and Lucifer is speaking is mindnumbing? Is it a sort of mass hypnosis? Is it possible that the group is under mass hypnosis?
Some of you have mentioned a film while others had live actors. For those of you with a film, could there have been sunliminal messages in the film to enhance the hypnotic quality of the mindnumbing? This is a very curious word, mindnumbing. This is extremely interesting if nothing else. I know it is painful to those of you who went through it. Please bear with us who have not and have always wondered what happens there? why? and How? I do appreciate your responses. I am learning.

for On the Down Low ......I hope your TBM mo parents didn't see tha Motely Cure SHOUT AT THE DEVIL pictures. Or what do you think? Would thay have made the connection with the temple?
I always liked them too and Black Sabbath. The old days!

The best way to understand all of it, in my view, is as archetype symbols. Archetypes are used by Carl Jung to explain the various character symbols in our lives.

The apron is symbolic, not magic. Just like the garment has symbols on it, but it's not magic as such.

I always thought they were totally out of character for any teaching about Jesus Christ as the garment is a kind of Mosaic expression which Christ is supposed to have come to fulfill. So it didn't fit in my mind.

Because the LDS leaders never fully explain the meaning of the temple rituals, the participants are left to try to figure it out on their own.

At the time of the inception of the LDS Church - it's earliest beginnings show what D Michael Quinn calls in his book title: Mormonism and the Magic World View. So the element of a magic world view (use of the metaphysical, supernatural, visions etc) was often dominant in religious practice.

My favorite Roald Dahl title.

Not defending the temple but symbols often have dual meaning, and in the temple the apron and obeying Satan has alot of dual meaning. It is a reenactment of what happened to Adam and Eve, and consequently to all humanity. The first humans and consequently allhumans being told by Satan to become aware of their nakedness and feel ashamed--especially once they become aware that they acted against an instruction given by God. But the meaning of the apron changes into something of a blessing (duality) because Adam and Eve's apron is made of fig leaves and the fig tree is universally understood to be among the trees that produce the most fruit, meaning that Adam and Eve become fruitful as a result of moving away from innocence and becoming mortal.

I have alot of problems with the temple ceremony--the blood oaths in particular. But the part about Satan telling people what to do, I understood to be a reenactment of Adam and Eve and consequently humanity obeying him and having to carry the consequences into the next level of their spiritual development. (The ceremony tells people to act as though they were Adam and Eve, implying they are reenacting what Adam and Eve did.)

So that's the reason I obeyed Satan in the temple.

I also wondered about the drape in the doorway. It was clearly blue. Is it actually colored at all in the Mo temples?