First off, I have no inside knowledge of the interworkings of church admisnistration. But while listening to recent stories podcasts, I realized there are some leaders inside the church that are advocating for a greater openness and liberalization (see mormonstories "Greg Prince on "Big Tent Mormonism" as well as Marlin Jensen q&a podcasts).

For lack of a better term, the "conservatives" inside the church have made the strategic decisions to suppress real mormon history, globally correlate and dumb-down the gospel, work to restrict gay rights and punish church members who stray too far from the official line (as well as many other bad strategic decisions).

These decisions have led to the largest exodus of church membership since Kirtland. In short, it has been a disaster. I believe these decisions can be traced to the influence of one man: Boyd K. Packer.

Instead, if back in the Leonard Arrington days, they had continue to open up church vaults and encourage historical scholarship, the disturbing problems of church history would not have come as such a shock to so many. Now as people google JS polyandry or Book of Abraham, they feel like they've been lied to. If these issue had been discussed openly by church leadership, I believe most people would have shrugged their shoulders and remained faithful. Boyd K. Packer may turn out to be the biggest anti-mormon in church history.

"Conservative" is very much the correct word.

And I agree with your general theory, though I wouldn't place so much power with BKP. He has never even been in the BIG3, so his influence has only been as great as has been permitted by a series of prophets and councillors.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if we could go back in time, pre internet, and see the fallout if TSCC went down a different path, opening up their vaults, confronting their history.

There is no reason to suppose it would have had an entirely negative reaction. All mainstream religions have a more open approach to their histories than Mormons do. All mainstream religions have colourful pasts, and still retain members.

I worked for a few months up there as a contractor and it certainly didn't seem like there was a lot of focus in how things got done. This group did that and another group was responsible for this and that other thing. There were squables over teritory and there was absolutely no honest feedback going up the chain. It seemed like a pretty typical business orgaization that is bloated and ineficient.

The only exception was when security got involved. There was an episode with a spammer/virus attack and the response to that was quick. Some Hard A** ex-marine type took over the whole operation at that point. Kind of reminded me of movies where the Feds step in and take over a case from the local boys.

Do the 15 really run things? Is Packer in a position to screw things up that badly? When he gets out of hand, who pulls him back?

I am almost certain that the church would have lost virtually no one if they were more open about the past of the church. People already know it's "colorful" since all long time members have polygamists in their closet.

Most people do NOT want to study or think hard about, well, much of anything at all. They're happy to go along with what the church tells them.

The only people the current strategy hurts is potential converts, or the recently converted. No one wants to think they aren't getting full disclosure. Who wants to be a chump?

I agree here, and I've experienced this first-hand many times, when I did seminary, as a lot of the dodgy teachings of church history were covered in seminary. They were never covered in an extreme way. Like we were told Brigham Young married lots of women, but we didn't get told that he married over 60 women altogether! But I think doing those things are good for the church if they want to keep their members. Firstly, being more honest and open can only be a good thing, and secondly, finding those things out as a kid in seminary would mean you wouldn't find it shocking when you stumble across an anti-mormon when serving a mission, for example, and you'll probably have your excuse/explanation/response thought up in your head beforehand.

On the other hand, it's kind of good in a way, since like it says in the OP, the church itself is probably the best anti-mormon. Maybe if they'd known what would happen with the Internet in the past they would've prepared for it by gradually teaching the mormons the more controversial things so they were less likely to be shocked when they found out themselves.

BKP is like a school yard bully. And a damn cranky one at that. He strikes me as the type who stops at nothing to get what he wants. I don't think he's the least bit intimidated by seniority. What are they going to do ? Fire him? I think he endlessly bullies anyone who doesn't believe what he does.

I expect Monson prays every night to God that he might live longer than Packer.

Mitt Romney is a perfect example. I'm not being political at all here, just pointing out the obviousness of the management style in the last debate. Even after the coaching, even after Chris Christy advising him to get his taxes out, what did Mittens say when asked about releasing his taxes.

Maybe, long pause with elevated elite eyebrow. Underlying message: I will not be pressured by the peons. I don't apologize for being successful at corporate raiding because the end justifies the means. The money goes into people's pockets, which is a capitalistic end and therefore good.

The LDS church is EXACTLY the same way. This is the management culture of the leadership. You don't get to ask me questions--I am above answering to you. It's top down and neither Romney or any other LDS leader will listen to advice--not even from experts.

You can replace the suit pants with Dad jeans, but you can't take the God complex out of a man who is certain he is the One Mighty and Strong, destined for greatness to save the nation...and I believe every GA and every man on the GA track believes he is special.

So special his judgment trumps facts and certainly they are all blind to the fact that they have no street smarts. They have no idea what plays in Peoria or even how normal people talk to each other, for heaven's sake.

Anagrammy

PS. Maybe Mitt should have answered that his tax returns are not necessary for salvation.

(I don't know if can find this online, email me if you can't):

Daws Butler/Point of Order (Baa Baa Black Sheep)

And you've got someone who is probably very sure of their manifest destiny.

I think your post is very insightful, anagrammy.

It's often said that the Mormon church exists in a bubble. If that's so, then the GAs are at the center of the bubble. When you go through each day surrounded by deferential people, and are treated as if you have not just great financial but great spiritual authority, it's probably almost impossible to think of others as equals.

There is also a subconscious tendency for each person to assume that their personal world is a microcosm of the world as a whole. This is the same tendency that causes some TBMs to be flabbergasted at the fact that most people neither know nor care about their church, in spite of the fact that they and most of the people they know build their lives around it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2012 10:45PM by oddcouplet.

It takes far more skill to create a family, business, institution, church, country or whatever that people actually want to belong to. It's much easier to be a hardass and scare people out of fleeing. But that's not a long-term solution. See the former Soviet Bloc, for example.

He deserves to be president, and we deserve to witness it.

who here wouldn't love to see BKK at the command of Mormonism?

Id give my left nut for that!

I assume that you mean that Packer would make so many mistakes and create so many enemies that the Church would dissolve faster than at its current rate.

BKP may not be in the Big 3 and never will be, BUT he is very senior and carries alot of weight. After GBH put in kids as GAs, so did BKP. Now Monson has done likewise, and Eyring has a kid as a high level leader. It's very much quid pro quo. They don't move forward unless as a group, so action is very slow. It took JFSmith and Lee dying for Kimball to push through the change on blacks. Change is very slow, since so many will question. It's a no win situation.

From what I've seen of BKP lately he's already pretty much gone mentally.

Which means they will put him in as a figurehead-on-meds and the Prophet Support Advisory Committee will just continue to make decisions.

Question for Steve: Wasn't GBH at the head of the Committee throughout ETB's profitreign?

Anagrammy

GBH was head of something called The Committee and was actually out of the line of succession for prophet. He wasn't a GA. There was a reorganization which made him eligible. I remember the buzz when we started Evergreen (not the same mission as the Evergreen that exists today) that it was a good thing The Weasel was not cued up to be prophet.

Ana

>GBH was head of something called The Committee and was actually out of the line of succession for prophet. He wasn't a GA.

GBH was called as an Assistant to the Quorum of the Twelve in 1958, and was ordained an apostle in 1961.
He became a counselor to SWK in 1981, and was made 1st counselor to ETB in 1985.

GBH had the perks of GAhood for half of his life.

I wonder why we didn't think he was in line to be prophet--maybe it was the position he held. I really don't know enough about the politics of succession.

Thanks for setting me straight on that.

Ana

He'd rather have a small group of true believers than a large group of lukewarm supporters.

The Church leadership has made a big strategic decision - to mainstream. You will see this decision influencing the programmes of the Church, the words of leaders and the content of lessons.

Members are being encouraged to stay away from the fringe topics of the religion and to stay within the bounds of mainstream material from mainstream sources.

Mormonism is desperately trying to lose the cult label that comes with some of the more cultish practices and teachings.
It's dumbing down to try and retain membership.

Exactly the path the RLDS followed into obscurity as the Community of Christ.

So long, farewell, auf weidersein, Good-bye...

He spoke at a Seminary fireside broadcast Sunday night and looked very bloated and his speech was somewhat slurred. He seemed to be very much with it mentally, however.

Maybe he's ready for the fourth anointing.....where they declare his mission complete. Conspiracy theory. (I'm joking)

The church would lose a lot of members if it became more open about it's history. Just look at the RLDS church. They distanced themselves from their church history and the BOM. They lost a lot of members. I think the church should be open, but how do they do it? It is a tough issue for the GAs.

BKP is not in the big 3, but he is in the media more often. So if he is causing Morgs to leave TSCC, I hope he lives on and continues until everyone leaves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/2012 03:05PM by enoughenoch19.