OK, it was forty years too late, but it finally arrived.

Since I left the church, my family has remained loving but...my parents, especially my Dad, did anything and everything in the beginning to make me see my error and get me to to return to the fold.

I made it clear that my decision was final and I would not discuss it further. I still got a few well placed jabs and zingers from my father, and lots of faith promoting quips from my mother over the years, but I just let them roll off. They really were and are very dear people.

This all happened before the education that I finally got 38 years later when I read No Man Knows My History a few years ago, followed it up with Losing A Lost Tribe and other books and finally last year found RFM and finally had my own personal arsenal of mormonal information.

So now, I'm of course dying to have the conversations with them. Not confrontational, just informational.

But, Dad is dead and Mom is elderly. So, that's the end of that. Right? I tried to broach a couple of topics about six months ago and the look on mom's face was a fear I have never seen before, so I dropped it.

OK....so, last night on the phone, my mother is recounting a phone conversation she had with my father's sister. This aunt is now in her nineties and according to my mom had herself in tears and near hysterics over the fact that when she died and was reunited with her husband (who died an atheist 40 some years ago and I am sure has had his temple work done since) that he will already have many wives and she just cannot imagine sharing him. He was an amazing man and they were truly in love forever and she is counting down the minutes until she sees him again. It was heartbreaking to hear about.

For some reason she is sure it has to be at least seven wives for him to get into the celestial kingdom. My mother said she tried unsuccessfully for an hour to calm her down and get her to realize it just wasn't so.

My mind was racing. I'm thinking, but what do you think about the plural wives Dad will have when you get there mom?

And then she says with a laugh, "I just couldn't convince your aunt that that's crazy." She then said something else about the fact that she would NEVER share my dad with anyone. Just wasn't going to happen.

My jaw was on the floor that my mother was just laughing this off as some old lady's silliness, when in fact my aunt had obviously been made aware of the future in store for mormon women in the celestial kingdom and was devastated by the news.

She ended with "I don't know where Aunt got that notion" and then continued to chuckle.

!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?.......???????

I have to look up the whole celestial polygamy thing, and would appreciate some references to find it all quickly. I know it was taught by BY or JS that the only way to get to the upper levels of exaltation was through polygamy, but I don't know where to find that.

I don't know if I will bring it to her attention or not. I,m not sure I can stop myself.

Would you? I would really appreciate some other opinions here. I am just too flabbergasted right now to think.


I find as an exmo, I know ten times more about the church than the life-long TBM family does. I am astounded.

This could be one of the things in the JoD.
Or it could also be the sort of "truth" just passed along and passed around until it was accepted as fact in a certain area a long time ago and no one really knows where it started. A good portion of mormon folklore started this way.

Like, my mom was convinced she could get pregnant from bath water a boy had bathed in. Her mom never told her any such thing, but some other older ladies at church had put the fear in her. And I have heard of such a tall tale from other fear mongering women.

D&C says something about three wives? "At least" three wives to make it into the highest of the highest kingdoms. I think that would be in section 132 if anywhere

I'm sorry, I don't have any real sources. :(

here who have the quotes, etc. I think that is over the top sad that your aunt feels that way.

I know when my mother died--my dad only lasted 2 more months--but all his focus was on seeing my mother again. I know my mother WOULD NOT wish to share my dad with anyone else.

One time a few years ago when the FLDS ranch in Texas was on the news, my mentally disabled brother wanted to know why the FLDS had pictures of JS and BY on their walls and my mother and I were explaining to him the situation. After he left, I asked my mother how she felt about polygamy. She just stared at me--never answered. My only active LDS sibling--sister--has stated for years and years that there is no way in hell she is sharing her husband--she'll go to whatever kingdom it takes to not do so. I laughingly asked one time (since I was "single") if she'd be willing to share with me and her husband said, "Hell no--NOBODY."

Well, if they read DC 132, they'll see that they as first wives get to reject or approve all subsequent wives.

Now the dead husband might have some prospects lined up for just such approval.

Somehow, none of that stopped Joseph Smith so perhaps it really is anything goes for the male in the afterlife.

Mormons are so twisted.

Thanks. I don't have a D&C. I couldn't even get through it when I was TBM in my youth.

I forgot about the first wife's veto power. Maybe that will cheer her up.

blueorchid Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks. I don't have a D&C. I couldn't even get
> through it when I was TBM in my youth.
>
> I forgot about the first wife's veto power.
> Maybe that will cheer her up.

All the Mormon scriptures are viewable online at http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132?lang=eng :o) I only have the BoM that the misshies gave me, so I was very pleased to find the other ones online. Wouldn't want to have to pay for such drivels! ;o)

Thanks. You need them sometimes but I didn't want to pay for them either.

Now I realize I probably know more about the church than my family, I may need them more and more in case they have a question!

I won't put a spin on it--just offer up their own writings if a friendly occasion comes up.

this. Thanks again, JS, not.

I thought that nevermos like her late husband would go to spirit prison until the resurrection, so I think you could tell her he hasn't been awakened yet and given the choice of joining, much less marrying.

As for your Mom, do you really want to make her hysterical like that too? It takes years for some of us to recover from learning the truth. I doubt if that is what she has in mind for her golden years.

Thanks. Yeah, I know in my gut I won't say anything, but this one is really hard to let pass. I do believe there is an age when you just let it go.

The spirits in spirit prison are awake, and able to hear the gospel and choose to accept. If they accept baptism, they can come out of spirit prison.

Jehovah's Witnesses and some other sects teach that spirits are asleep until the resurrection.

Yes, compassion dictates we leave well enough alone for an elderly person who has neither the wits or the time to process the information to a joyful conclusion.

I do believe it would help your aunt to know about the first wive veto power AND the fact that no polygamy will be practiced without the first wife's permission. So the aunt knows that she can make that decision later when her husband (now asleep) is resurrected.

Anxiety being so hard to control for all of us, it would be charitable to reassure her that he is NOT having other wives right now. That he is waiting for the resurrection.

As far as your mother, only you can judge her ability/desire to hear the truth. If she is an old person like Katherine Hepburn, by all means. Few older Mormon women have the starch to process shocking information that invalidates their whole lives.

Anagrammy

Thanks Anagrammy. My M.O. for the last forty years is to just let it go, and deep down I know I always will. It bugs me though, and it is nice to hear someone say what you said.

I have also forgotten so much, and forgot my uncle is still waiting for the resurrection. That should help her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2012 01:51PM by blueorchid.

Just a reminder, Mo doctrine teaches that spirits in prison are awake. They may hear the gospel teachings, join the church, and enter paradise.

And just because they have not yet been resurrected, doesn't mean that they can't accept a sealing to plural wives. They can't have celestial sex or children until the resurrection, but they can surely be sealed to more women if they qualify and choose to do so.

Further, regarding the teaching found in D&C 132 that the first wife must approve and consent to all subsequent sealings to plural wives, poster Baura gives this quote from Pres. Joseph F. Smith, given to a congressional committee in the Reed Smoot case hearings:

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This was clarified by a living prophet while under
> oath. Joseph F. Smith's testimony, under oath,
> before a Senate committee concerning this was as
> follows:
>
> SENATOR PETTUS. Have there been in the past plural
> marriages without the consent of the first wife?
>
> MR. SMITH. I do not know of any, unless it may
> have been Joseph Smith himself.
>
> SENATOR PETTUS. Is the language that you have read
> construed to mean that she is bound to consent?
>
> MR. SMITH. The condition is that if she does not
> consent the Lord will destroy her, but I do not
> know how He will do it.
>
> SENATOR BAILEY. Is it not true that in the very
> next verse, if she refuses her consent her husband
> is exempt from the law which requires her
> consent?
>
> MR. SMITH. Yes; he is exempt from the law which
> requires her consent.
>
> SENATOR BAILEY. She is commanded to consent, but
> if she does not, then he is exempt from the
> requirement?
>
> MR. SMITH. Then he is at liberty to proceed
> without her consent, under the law.
>
> SENATOR BEVERIDGE. In other words, her consent
> amounts to nothing?
>
> MR. SMITH. It amounts to nothing but her consent
>
> "Reed Smoot Case," vol. 1, p. 201.

So it would seem that the first wife's approval was a mere formality.

Wow!! THis polygamy thing gets more interesting all the time. I know my mother isn't ready for that one, but I love reading it.

JoD 21:296 Orson Pratt
If plurality of marriage is not true...then marriage for eternity is not true, and your faith is in vain. All the sealing ordinances pertaining to marriages for eternity are vain, worthless, good for nothing.

JoD 21: 296 Brigham Young
...if any of you...deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so I promise you will be damned!

Yes, that's the stuff I was looking for. Thanks Mia.

Check out this section of changing world of mormonism. It contains many quotes of how you can only go to the celestial kingdon through polygamy. There are statements by the prophets, so they are hard to deny.

http://utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech9a.htm

Go to Richard Packham's web page about the teachings of Brigham Young. Specifically look at Journal of Discourses 11: 268-269 dated August 9, 1866. Also, if your sweet mom fails in her mission to reach the celestial kingdom, supposedly your father can choose a different wife/wives according to BY. Also, it is well known that a man can be sealed to more than one woman today in the temples, providing the previous wives are deceased. I believe a couple of the current prophets are sealed to more than one woman, whose previous wives have passed away. The church should not deny what they practice and preach.

Good luck! Loves

Thank you everyone. I have read a ton in the last hour and learned a lot or remembered a lot. You have helped me so much.

The best thing happened. I called my mother to tell her to tell my aunt about the First wife giving approval and that nothing is happening until after the resurrection anyway and it opened up a really great conversation.

I mentioned casually that, yes, there is mention of plural marriage in the scriptures with regards to exaltation and maybe that's what has Aunt so upset.

She knew nothing of this. She did say that a few years ago the seminary teacher in town had married his wife's sister in the temple after his wife had died and that he was always bragging jokingly about how having done that made him a polygamist and so he had already fulfilled this requirement for exaltation.

My mom thought this was odd and funny that he would do that. It did not bother her at all. However I think she really sees the future as the way she wants it to be and is not terribly concerned---unlike my aunt.

My mother apparently has a really big shelf and even she doesn't know what's on it anymore. It for sure isn't going to break like all of ours did.

She was very appreciative that I offered to send her the sources, which I am sure will go to the back of the shelf, but it was nice.

It was one of the most honest moments I have had with my mother and it was nice to talk about things like that and end with a laugh. I really needed that.

Thank you all again.

Loved the line...My mom has a really big shelf and even she doesn't know what is on it anymore. Good luck in the future with your mom. She seems like one of the more reasonable Mormon moms.

As a nevermo I just find it all so strange how anyone can be concerned about the polygamy issue at all. But hey, I wasn't brought up with such ridiculous doctrine. Feel sorry for all who were.

Eternal Polygamy as taught by Smith and Young,


http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/volume-16/

Journal of Discourses, Vol. 16, p. 166

This doctrine of baptism for the dead is a great doctrine, one of the most glorious doctrines that was ever revealed to the human family; and there are light, power, glory, honor and immortality in it. After this doctrine was received, Joseph received a revelation on celestial marriage. You will recollect, brethren and sisters, that it was in July, 1843, that he received this revelation concerning celestial marriage. This doctrine was explained and many received it as far as they could understand it. Some apostatized on account of it; but others did not, and received it in their faith. This, also, is a great and noble doctrine. I have not time to give you many items upon the subject, but there are a few hints that I can throw in here that perhaps may be interesting. As far as this pertains to our natural lives here, there are some who say it is very hard. They say, "This is rather a hard business; I don't like my husband to take a plurality of wives in the flesh." Just a few words upon this. We would believe this doctrine entirely different from what it is presented to us, if we could do so. If we could make every man upon the earth get him a wife, live righteously and serve God, we would not be under the necessity, perhaps, of taking more than one wife. But they will not do this; the people of God, therefore, have been commanded to take more wives. The women are entitled to salvation if they live according to the word that is given to them; and if their husbands are good men, and they are obedient to them, they are entitled to certain blessings, and they will have the privilege of receiving certain blessings that they cannot receive unless they are sealed to men who will be exalted. Now, where a man in this Church says, "I don't want but one wife, I will live my religion with one," he will perhaps be saved in the celestial kingdom; but when he gets there he will not find himself in possession of any wife at all. He has had a talent that he has hid up. He will come forward and say, "Here is that which thou gavest me, I have not wasted it, and here is the one talent," and he will not enjoy it, but it will be taken and given to those who have improved the talents
they received, and he will find himself without any wife, and he will remain single for ever and ever. But if the woman is determined not to enter into a plural marriage, that woman when she comes forth will have the privilege of living in single blessedness through all eternity. Well, that is very good, a very nice place to be a minister to the wants of others. I recollect a sister conversing with Joseph Smith on this subject. She told him: "Now, don't talk to me; when I get into the celestial kingdom, if I ever do get there, I shall request the privilege of being a ministering angel; that is the labor that I wish to perform. I don't want any companion in that world; and if the Lord will make me a ministering angel, it is all I want." Joseph said, "Sister, you talk very foolishly, you do not know what you will want." He then said to me: "Here, brother Brigham, you seal this lady to me." I sealed her to him. This was my own sister according to the flesh. Now, sisters, do not say, "I do not want a husband when I get up in the resurrection." You do not know what you will want. I tell this so that you can get the idea. If in the resurrection you really want to be single and alone, and live so forever and ever, and be made servants, while others receive the highest order of intelligence and are bringing worlds into existence, you can have the privilege. They who will be exalted cannot perform all the labor, they must have servants and you can be servants to them.

Holy Cow!