I read the responses about people being visited by dead people. If we were all still TBM, it wouldn’t have surprised me at all, and it would be expected due to the belief system. Whatever happened would be spun through a Mormon mindset and the answer would come out to backup what was believed.

But now that most are no longer believers, I was shocked. How do people still keep beliefs in an afterlife where their loved ones can come and go and visit? Did the LDS church get that part right, but the rest was wrong? Just curious how that all fits now?

I’m not trying to make people defensive, or change their beliefs about their dead loved ones, I just assumed that such beliefs would have changed once they no longer believed, and a new meaning would have been made to explain it. Perhaps imagination, wish fulfillment by the unconscious mind, etc.

If the dead are still around after they die, and if they contain some sort of an intelligence that makes them able to communicate with humans, that would have me searching for who rules them. Or perhaps I suppose they govern themselves and can do as they wish unrestrained. But then if that is the case, why don’t they keep coming around. Why would they tire of the relationship?

A lot of questions came up in my mind when reading that thread. If it makes you defensive, it wasn’t meant to put you on the spot. If you’re open to exploring the belief, some further explanation would be great.

I was a responder in that thread who said I thought I was visited by my brother but two years later now I question it. Same with my mom in a dream 19 years ago. I waffle. Did it happen? I can't tell people yes because I don't know for sure. I think sometimes people are in despair and may emotionally make things up that seem real. Plus I think it is common to have residual beliefs that aren't yet eliminated in our minds.

Well that's why I began my account with the fact that I used to believe I had been visited by my Nana, but now I believe that it was just a dream.

I related the story as to how I felt when it happened.

I don't think it's very nice for some people to ridicule the experiences of others.
Especially since no one knows for sure what lays ahead after we die.

Until we either pass over ourselves or go into oblivion, we simply need to withhold judgement.

Unless someone claims an apparition with gold plates told them to start a new nazi-like church, I say we can allow for the possibility that there is an afterlife.

From all accounts, Mormonism has nothing to do with the Hereafter. Thank God.

the morg isnt the only church that believes this..... therefore you dont have to be a morg to believe in an aferlife with spirits traipsing about, visiting people.

personally, I believe it's all wack, but
1) I'm not going to try and analyze every anecdote about ghosts
2) if it gives someone a bit of comfort (and doesn't require 10% and a special handshake) then whats the harm

I don't know what I think about visits from the dead, but being an ex Mo does not automatically make us atheists and even atheists can believe in an afterlife. That is not the same thing as a belief in God.

So, for those of you who receive visits, do you try to shake hands with them?

Just wonderin'...

Ron

The one experience I can't explain is the one when I was 16 and there was a man standing in my bedroom doorway. I dismiss it partly because yes, I had been sleeping.

But, I did wake up to the point where I was saying out loud, "Dad? Dad?" and got no answer.

No, I didn't try to shake hands with it. I was sinking farther down into my blankets and peeking at it over the top of the covers.

That was actually before I was baptized LDS. I really don't know what to think of that one. I just know that it wasn't my Dad. He doesn't stand in my doorway at 3:00 a.m., wearing a dark suit and a hat and he's not a practical joker. He's a rather serious, conservative sort of guy.

The problem is that it happened 37 years ago, so although I can recall it, how I felt at the time is getting more vague with time. I'd like to go back to that situation and really examine it. But I'm in no hurry for it to happen again! LOL

I also can't explain 5 years ago when someone shoved my shoulder and when I turned around, no one was with 100 yards of me. I wasn't asleep. I was standing outside.

Even though I recall feeling a hand on the outside of my jacket, I like to pass that one off as a muscle spasm, which it could well have been.

Just because I can't explain things, doesn't mean that I don't think there's a rational explanation for them. But if I can't explain something, I'll say so. It just means that I don't know.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what the OP was saying.

There is very little in these kinds of stories that would support a uniquely Mormon position. So relax, the Mormons really are not right about the "afterlife" (not the correct term).

All I can say is don't worry. Believe them (some are true), disbelieve them (some are not true), it doesn't matter, really.

It doesn't matter what you believe, it only matters what you do.

Peace.

but I am reading a book right now called "Interventionist"--excellent book by the way. This woman is far from mormon and she had a visit--when she found out her mother was dying and she didn't feel she could handle it. I believe her. I've had things like that happen--not necessarily a visit, but no explanation whatsoever for WHY things happened the way they did.

One thing that always bothered my about the church was the certainty of members in their knowledge. Once somebody is convinced that they know what the truth is, it is very hard for them to see, much less accept, anything that contradicts their "knowledge."

People who are convinced that they know exactly what life and consciousness are, and have figured out how the universe works are fooling themselves. "Flatland" isn't a place or a church, it is a mindset. It isn't just Mormons who stop searching and try to explain all experience in terms of their own definition.

Mormons also told me that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, that water is wet, and that fire burns. Did you stop believing that too?

Hi DNA,

We didn't claim that any of us experienced something supernatural. In fact, at least several of us suggested that a likely explanation for what happened to us was that our unconscious minds produced a comforting dream or vision (hallucination, or waking dream; "REM intrusion") just when we needed it in order to give us comfort, but that it was purely naturalistic and that there was nothing supernatural about it.

The reason that I think that these experiences are valuable is to show that first, they occur, and second, they're not dependent upon religion. Religion is just an overlay on people's psychology. It's like putting on a particular shade of sunglasses.

Although I personally think that there *is* reason to very seriously consider the possibility of life after death, based primarily on the testimony and verifiable remote out-of-body perception reports, that's very different from the types of experiences that we related in the previous thread.

Don't feel shocked. An experience such as we related is no more shocking than any dream. It's just personally more meaningful than most dreams are to us.

That's all.

Relax,

Steve

I'm no scientist but I do know that part of the limitations we have as human is how linear we are and the way we experience past, present and future based purely on perception rather than reality. Questions about time are scientific questions. Whether past, present and future can occur simultaneously or if they can somehow catch up or occur in reverse order. Its an open possibility that moments might exist where our perceptions of the present now might be a little ahead of ourselves where in reality we exist in something of an eternity, that we cannot accurately perceive or understand.

I've always felt that when atheists argue against the afterlife almost dogmatically as a tenet of atheism they are missing the point that an afterlife would not need to depend on a God anymore than this life would have to depend on a God. The real issue is whether life can exist without God, and the answer to that would have to apply across the board for life in the present, life in the future, and an afterlife, etc. But if life exists without God, why could it not change over into another dimension or other level of existence? Even without a God?

I lean in favor of believing that because life has proven itself to exist, the afterlife question is not a question about God. It's a question purely about whether life, like energy, changes form but continues to exist.

Very interesting thoughts Christina



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an area where there is a lot of religious and cival war history and such. To this day, other people have reported similar occurences. I believe something is going on, what that is, I don't no but it has nothing to do with TSCC.

I'm sort of with DNA on this one. I'm sure it's just because my only after death experience was a self-serving faith-promoting lie. I sure hope there is more to life than this brief sojourn, but to date I've had no experience to convince me one way or the other. I just don't know; and I'm not the least bit uncomfortable admitting I don't have the answer. I will however always remain skeptical of anyone who does claim to know anything that cannot be empirically demonstrated. Fool me once...



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I too found surprising the number of shared experiences.

However I found it telling that very few of experiences went beyond sensing an emotional presense or a dream.

As I said in another thread about something else, the event happened to someone in particular. So the event has a meaning mainly to that person, it was meant for that person. It does not prove anything about anything to anyone else. And it shouldn't.

I'm not shocked by peoples stories about visits from dead people because I don't know everything about everything.

For example, I did 'die' when I was about 5 years old. I was pushed in a staircase and the impact when I hit the floor was so strong that my 'spirit' (if that is what one should call it) was propelled out of my body. So I know what I know from that experience and no one is going to convince me that I was halucinating or something like that. I know the entire day I lived during the space of apparently 15-20 minutes.

But, that particular experience happened to me so its meaning is probably meant only for me. And my 'temporary death' does not mean that the same thing will happen when I will 'truely die'.



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very clearly a short time after he died saying it was "OK".

I have thought a lot about that experience. I believe it was my own way of coming to some kind of acceptance. But the experience felt very real.

In Thomas Moore's book, "Care of the Soul" he explains how it is important for one to create one's own mythology. That experience with my father's voice is part of my own "mythology". It gives me comfort even though I don't really believe there was any "visitation" from the afterlife.

Dr. Ian Stevenson did extensive research on reincarnation and I have read a lot of his work. He conducted studies in as scientific manner as possible and has case studies that are pretty convincing.

Reincarnation is NOT something you will ever hear in the morg but it does require living beyond death. I don't know what I believe as far as god and all that supernatural stuff but I do know that I don't buy into any of the mainstream religions in existence because as far as I can see they are all created by men, run by men, and their primary reason for existence is to control people by fear and use that fear to obtain money.

If we do continue after death in some form of intelligence that has some sort of free will then I guess it could be possible that someone in that state of existence could possibly find a way to communicate with those of us still living in our bodies. Is it possible? Yeah I guess so. Why would they do that? Who knows. What I do know is there there is knowledge that is not mainstream that pertains to things we would consider supernatural but when understood is simple physics or some other law of nature. Way back in midevil times those who practiced alchemy were thought to be wizards because they knew things about chemicals and physics that 99% of the population did not know and yet the things they did if looked at from where we stand today with our understanding of science were nothing more than say throwing gun powder on a fire to create a bright flash. So I guess what I am saying is that just because we can't prove something or because we don't understand something doesn't make it impossible to exist. I try to keep an open mind because I am convinced that there is knowledge out there that we have not discovered yet, even with our advanced science, and I know that making a blanket statement that something is impossible is just showing a closed mind that is not open to any possibilities that one does not understand. Whether we continue in an intelligent existence beyond death has not been proven or disproven and until it is proven anyone who declares differently either way is simply prejudiced to the side they believe to be fact. There is no fact on this issue at this point in time and that is the bottom line.

Have you ever studied the gospel of Vog?

Vog will give you riches in this life and eternal joy in the next life if you just pay me $50 a week. If not Vog will toruture you for all eternity. Vog has inspired me to be his representative here on earth.

The beauty of Vog is that he doesn't even care what you do or even if you believe in him as long as you pay the $50.

There is no way to prove if this is true or not. We just don't know. There is no fact on this issue and that is the bottom line.

I think you really should pay me that $50 a week just in case. I'm only looking out for the welfare of your soul and your happiness in this life.

What? You're not interested? You're not going to study it?

I see no need to study every or any supernatural proposition that someone imagines up and uses "you can't know it's not real" as the primary arguement for it's plausibilty.



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Death is such an emotional subject, is it any wonder that people who are otherwise completely rational, develop strange ideas on the subject? I don't believe in an after-life. I don't see a way that such a thing could exist, but I keep pondering the subject, hoping to find some loophole that will allow my conscience to continue for eternity. Hell, at this point, I am hoping to live long enough to have my brain downloaded onto a computer (if they could figure out a way to make it my actual conscience stream, and just not a copy of me that thought it was me).

One of many reasons I don't believe in life after death is the evidence we have right before us, during life, that parts of the personality "die" when that region of the brain suffers damage.

Personality changes may even be beneficial, such as my testy Latin mother becoming kissy and sweet after her stroke. She used to call the nurses at the nursing home "those bitches." Afterward, they were "her angels."

SOOOOO...now that we can see these darkened areas of the brain using technology, do we create a Personality Limbo where the dead portions of the brain are stored waiting to return after Jesus comes, in the resurrection?

When people have Ahlzeimer's, are their memories being stored somewhere to be inserted into their spirit body after death --especially if they are going to hell, where there is no waiting, and will need those memories to suffer properly for their sins?

For some people, the tunnel idea and seeing dead loved ones provides great comfort, which they need and which helps them deal with life and the suffering associated with grief. I submit that there are other tools to help one deal with life/death/suffering, which do not involve separating oneself from one's time or money.

Hugs to all

Anagrammy

Ever heard of a lucid dream? So real you think you are awake but know you are dreaming but can even control your dreams. Might explain it, idk. I love lucid dreams.

I'd like to thank "thedrive" and some others who posted about their experiences. It takes a lot of bravery to post something like that. I've had similar experiences and I just don't talk about them except with very few people. Your post, thedrive, did bring me to tears.

Given the ubiquitousness of video cameras and webcams, why doesn't somebody videotape their visit with a dead relative? Then load the video to YouTube and prove to the world that this supernatural magic stuff actually happens. Until I can see that kind of proof I will never believe in visits from the dead. Such visits are dreams or hallucinations until proven otherwise.

I was a poster in the previous thread,I spoke about incidents I had experienced at the births or just after of my children and then grandchildren,the incidents with my own children happened before I became a member,each to his own,how do others know what others experience,I know what I saw and time has'nt changed that,however I know it changed me,I would never have believed these type of things happened once upon a time ( no pun intended)

My Mom, who was never Mormon, had a visit from her sister and her Mother. Guess it's not all in being a Mormon.

I'm an exmo, but I find the soul or spirit survives without the physical body. Nothing "dies" in my experience, just keeps on going.

So yeah, they get around sometimes. :)

They may interpret it various different ways, but I believe people when they say they saw/heard/experienced something. Just because there isn't a ready explanation does NOT mean they were hallucinating or imagining things.