Hello,

I'm new to these boards, so I'll give a bit of an introduction to myself. I began questioning the LDS church a few years ago, and I am currently an atheist. As I am just a sophomore in High School, I still live with my parents who are staunch conservative Mormons. Almost everyone in my family is a TBM (immidiate and extended) with only a few extended relatives being the exceptions. My family has deep roots in the church. I live in a highly Mormon area in the Salt Lake Valley. The majority of people in my school are Mormon, and most of my friends are as well. None of these people are 'Jack Mormons.' They're all very much active in the church, seminary, etc.

When I came out as an Atheist, my parents were very disappointed and asked why I stopped believing. I responded saying that there’s no evidence for God. My mom was confused by this, because Faith>Evidence. My dad said that there is evidence and that I was “getting misinformation from the Internet.” Which is ironic, because he later started sending me misinformed ‘evidence’ and Mormon propaganda (he gave me a book called Lehi in the Desert, the World of the Jaredites, There Were Jaredites by Hugh Nibley. I haven’t read it yet, but have any of you?).

Anyway, on to the actual topic:

It recently struck me that perhaps the General Authorities don’t believe in this religion themselves? Of course, it’s all speculation, but what do you think?

That is a good question that I have been wondering about myself. There is substantial evidence that the GA know about the contradictions in church doctrine and continue to lie and cover it up whether they believe it all still is a mystery to me.
Its good that you are questioning and keeping an open mind. Have you thought about going to an out of state college after high school? That would be a good opportunity to have some independence from religion.

Twinker's point is the only barometer we have here. The leaders present this image of spiritual men, which frankly anyone can do. But they are also exceedingly careful to cover up, to prevaricate and obfuscate, and to never directly answer a difficult question. They are intent on revising their history and carefully divert you down a different path. They practically quake in fear over the Internet, and have a hundred different ways to vilify it and discourage members from using it. So, no. I don't believe they actually believe it's true. If it were true, they'd put the Book of Abraham papyri under glass and display it on Temple Square. In temple preparation classes they would actually tell you about the temple. But all available church information is made to divert your path somewhere else and get you to quit thinking difficult thoughts.

I think the GA believe but there is cover up. Like the removal of Joseph Smith writing about drinking from History of the Church.

I don't have a strong ground to stand on but if you think about the church as an organization they have a lot to lose financially from not teaching 100% truth.

You will see different opinions on here - most will probably agree with you.

I strongly believe that all or almost all of the general authorities are true believers.

Here's reasons why:

1) I know personally and very closely (including my own father, 2 brother in laws, friends, etc.) a number of people who have been bishops and stake presidents. Many of these people have been exposed to as they would call it lots of "anti-mormon" stuff. They all believe in the church completely. They just see that "anti" stuff as the buffetings of satan. They all believe they have seen multiple miracles in the course of their callings that completely prove to them that it is all true.

2) It would be very hard to be motivated enough to dedicate so much of your life to the cause if you don't believe it. These aren't just men who are dedicating their lives now - they have all spent 20-30 years or more largely dedicated themselves to serving in the church. In the case of my father, it included neglecting his wife and children while he spent most of his life in high-up church callings. It is everything to him and it would be virtually impossible for him to rethink - it would mean his entire life had been a waste.

3) Don't underestimate the power of Confirmation Bias. http://www.michaelshermer.com/weird-things/excerpt/. We are all subject to it - it's interesting to watch it in play on this board.

4) You don't see general authorities apostacise nearly often enough for them to not be believing it. If there we some sort of secret initiation where they were told this is really all just a lie but we do it for the power and/or because we think it helps people you can be sure that those who have apostacized would have told about it.

5) When the Book of Abraham scripts were found the leaders of the church were quick to have it studied. They really thought it was going to prove what they believe hook, line & sinker to be true to be true.

6) I've been reading a lot about Myers-Briggs personality stuff lately. The type of personalities that get called into leadership positions in the church are typically STs (sensor thinkers). They are really good at working hard and holding up the institution. They are really good at syphoning through the facts and cataloging them according to their existing belief system. They aren't so good at seeing the big picture or fitting the pieces together intuitively to see how it all adds up to a big fraud.

7) IMO, by the end of Joseph Smith's life he was so used to the lie and had gotten away with it for so long he even believed himself.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2012 12:00PM by ronas.

I recently worked security for the church and had contact on a regular basis with many ga's. My opinion is that most are good faithful members doing their part, but there are some that are purely power hungry or good business men.

Unless there are too many perks, some that we likely don't know about.

With all the investments TSCC has, we have no way of knowing if the top 12 or more get kick backs of various sorts. Wouldn't surprise me in the least!

With those, they would have a relatively stress free life, just having to go to church meetings which are boring but really, that's about all they do. Who wouldn't go for that?

Those poor guys never get to retire. While the rest of us get to retire in peace around 65 they have to live in slave-itude working full time or more until they die. I'm sure they like the prestige, power, etc. but they've got way more stress than your average 80 year old.

However as far as perks don't forget the book deals. They've got to make a bunch of money on those books that are usually ghost written that the Mormons gobble up.

Even when I was supposedly TBM I would zing my wife on the hypocrasy of the Deseret Book church owned ads coming on right before and after general conference on Sunday selling the general authority written books.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2012 12:50PM by ronas.

"You don't see general authorities apostacise nearly often enough for them to not be believing it. If there we some sort of secret initiation where they were told this is really all just a lie but we do it for the power and/or because we think it helps people you can be sure that those who have apostacized would have told about it."

Well, you also don't see people who belong to the Masons at the highest levesl or the Skull & Bones societies defecting, and publicly coming out about it, writing and telling about it.

Mormonism is different than other mainstream religions, as much as they profess not to be. It had its origins in a secret society Masonic based group.If GA's do defect, they most likely do so very quietly. I know a child of a 33rd Degree Mason who decided to quit and when his family asked him about it, he refused to talk about it. didn't want to have to deal with the ramifications.

The Mormon hierarchy has a pretty good system for weeding out people who won't act and look like they are 100% believers.

I believe the GA's at the highest levels are in a position where if they leave, they have too high a price to pay, and so they don't... If they do anything that is out of line, such as start talking or acting out of order, they can be quietly demoted or embarrassed. The mechanisms are in place.

For example, some are called as Area Authorities and if I'm not mistaken, it's a 2 or 3 year term, and they are probably then given a choice if they want to continue or not. Some don't continue any longer. I think that happened to Alexander Morrison. He was a GA but now is no longer. Not necessarily because he is no longer a believer, but he served his usefulness to the Corporation, probably by showing them and getting them the necessary contacts in the Canadian government that they were after, or perhaps he wasn't a player and so they didn't extend his term longer. But that may not be the case, either. He may have decided for other reasons he didn't want to keep going.

So they can't even apostasize, as the system is set up so that only the players can continue. Once they are at the very top level, it's tough to leave without risk to their families and finances, possibly even their lives. With Mormonism having a very violent history, that would not be hard to believe, even though they appear to be docile and sugar coat everything, I believe they are pretty ruthless business men at the top.

GA's at the lower levels don't generally want to leave because they are usually so eager to serve (or else they wouldn't have been selected), that they are happy just to do whatever is asked of them. Think Eager Beaver missionaries who work in the Mission Office as assistant to their mission Presidents. That type of guy.

You make some good points. I think slightly different on a few of them:

"The Mormon hierarchy has a pretty good system for weeding out people who won't act and look like they are 100% believers."

I'd restate that to say:
The Mormon hierarchy has a pretty good system for weeding out those who aren't 100% believers.

"I believe the GA's at the highest levels are in a position where if they leave, they have too high a price to pay, and so they don't... If they do anything that is out of line, such as start talking or acting out of order, they can be quietly demoted or embarrassed. The mechanisms are in place."

I'd restate that to say:
I believe teh GA's at the highest levels, they have too high a price to pay to even reconsider their beliefs. They don't dare do anything but believe it completely.

"For example, some are called as Area Authorities and if I'm not mistaken, it's a 2 or 3 year term, and they are probably then given a choice if they want to continue or not. Some don't continue any longer. I think that happened to Alexander Morrison."

The area authority thing is quite new. I agree it is a vetting process for GAs, but it hasn't been around long enough. However, things like stake president, mission president, temple president, etc. all work the same way. Again from my perspective this is evidence that they believe it completely and just harden their belief as they dedicate more and more of their lives to their belief. The further they are in the less the are able/willing to reconsider whether it is true. They "know" it is true.

My guess, is that it is a mixed bag. Most seem like intelligent guys and they probably know it is not all true, but sincerely believe that the church is a good thing, so they have to continue the lie in order to keep from hurting all the TBMs. Others probably believe it is all true, and that all the contrary evidence is the work of Satan, and that they must hide his lies from the world. Still others probably know it is not true, but don't care because they are making a half a million dollars a year as board members of the Corporation of the Presidency of TCOJCOLDS.

I strongly suspect that many of the GAs have extremely compartmentalized ways of believing. In other words, they have come to a point at which they simultaneously sincerely believe in the church's truth claims while accurately perceiving that they are untrue.

As others have pointed out, there are probably also some GAs who know that it's all a pious fraud that got out of hand. But they can justify continued pretense by telling themselves that acknowledging the truth would do more harm than good.

The fundamental doctrine of Mormonism is that they have a living profit who receives prophesy and revelation directly from God. Monson KNOWS he never has experienced this, so how can he honestly believe in the fundamental church doctrine?

I'll bet Tommy completely believes he has received this revelation through the spirit. He actually tells stories in conference about it all the time. How he felt he need to go see someone and they were on their deathbed. How he called on someone to speak who wasn't in the temple at the time but showed up just in time to speak. etc.

So does almost every bishop, stake president, GA, etc.

In my "exit intervew" with a member of the stake presidency he told me how over and over in his callings the Lord has given him the words to say that the person sitting in his office needed to hear. That those words were beyond his personal capability and ability. In his mind he has received revelation after revelation after revelation.

It's all about confirmation bias.

One of the most peculiar conceits of Mormonism is the idea that it is different from other faiths because Mormons are guided by revelation.

Actually, almost all Christian groups believe in some form of ongoing revelation. I have often heard Mormons announce their belief that "the heavens are open," but I have never heard any other Christian argue that they were ever closed. The unique twist that Mormonism brings is the idea that any revelation to which a person is "entitled" (there's a jarring concept!) can apply only to himself and to those under him in the church command structure.

The same thing applies to the idea that only Mormons believe that family members can be reunited in the afterlife. As near as I can see, pretty much every Christian believes this. But Mormons have tried to put institutional limits on the belief by adding that it can only happen if temple ordinances are performed.

Along those lines:

A few weeks ago in Gospel Doctrine they were reading from the 1 Nephi in the book of mormon about it coming forth in a time when the people no longer believed in miracles.

I watch all the morg bots nodding like they were the only ones in the world who still believed in miracles.

I had just read an article where a poll found that 93% of US Americans believe in miracles. (That's a way higher percentage than those who believe congress is doing a bad job or even who believe the moon landing is real.)

Oops.

And then the next reading was about how evil all the other churches were because they only cared about their fine twined apparel & their grandoise buildings. (Of course with everyone in their Sunday best and pictures of fancy temples hung all over the room.)

Oops again.

I think the fact that the church spends so much time and money on buying up evidence (Hofmann case) and distorting the truth by filtering the doctrine, as well as, internet campaigns to block your vision of the truth and put up volunteers called apologists...this to me tells me that they know for sure its a con. Every last one of them knows its a con and that is why they are sitting in the chairs they have cuz they are the executive board members who are getting big year end bonuses.

I also feel the Tommy Monson knows for certain he has no special powers beyond an unrighteous man. He is an ordinary man and he knows it when he looks at himself in the mirror every day.

Now tell your dad you got 2 books for him to read as a deal that you will read his books that he gave you. "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" by Larson and "The God Delusion" by Dawkins.

Do you see the highest level people resign at any religious sect? I think it is rare although it happens. I think power corrupts and high cushy positions (church, government, industry) are hard to give up--too many perks, too much power, too good of a life, etc. I also think that as the "company" people move up the laddar (to GA positions or something close), they become so self righteous that they become blinded by truths. If the regular TBM is blinded by the truth, GA's might be more blinded by their self righteousness and other factors mentioned above.

I think GA's generally believe "the story" but realize there are inconsistencies and things they cannot explain. They can brush this off in the name of "only God knows", "there is more to the story that we do not know", "these are lies", and so forth. But, because someone is a GA, doesn't mean that all of a sudden they know everything. I would imagine that many of them have had doubts and probably some still do. One long time temple worker (had worked in the temple for 30 years) once told me that even if it was not true, it still cannot be a bad thing--he said he was a still a better person. I asked but don't you know it is true? He said, I think it is but who can know for sure.

My 2 cents

I believe a large percentage of the GA's have genuine testimonies.

I personally believe that among the 15 Quorum Members however... it's a different story.

Gordon B.Hinckley must have known it was made up. The way he worded things in those interviews, along w/ his first hand knowledge of the cover up of the BoA and the Hoffman scandal... sometimes I wonder if he didn't use all that as a weapon in his rise in the church to begin with.

Men have an innate fear of becoming irrelevant. These guys at the very top feel SOOOOO important,.... they are not going to do anything VOLUNTARILY to give up these perceived positions of power.

My opinion is that among apostles, they probably know it's logically false but use whatever rationalization required...to convince themselves that they are doing more 'good than bad' and that they are 'helping people.'

One of the problems with being a celebrity (as indeed the G.A.s are in their own little world) is the danger of eventually believing your own press. I think that plays in to the G.A. experience. I think that kind of celebrity is one of the most seductive and addictive on the planet. Church callings, for some, are TBM cocaine. I think that is true for my Area 70 brother.

I like what ronas said about Joseph Smith eventually believing his own lies. It seems implausible, but we know from studying the human condition that it actually is possible and does happen.

The G.A.s today, must, more than anyone, know the lies and inconsistencies of the church. I can only imagine, that a life dedicated to pushing all fact and evidence aside, to cling only to the dictatorial methods of the prophets, makes them virtuosos in their ripe old age at keeping the blinders firmly in place.


If you can actually believe that God commanded Nephi to kill Laban just to get a book, you can believe anything. Supposedly the God who created the heavens and earth and every living thing, could only come up with that lame plan as a way to get the book. Why would you do that to Nephi? Do you know how absolutely horrible it would be for a good person to have to kill someone?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2012 02:05PM by blueorchid.

agree;

they've learned to Quiet their Cog dis.