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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 12:37AM

Is not what I have ever aspired to be. If I ever become that on this board I hope you will let me know. These are the type of people that drove me over the edge when I went to church.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 12:38AM

Agreed

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Posted by: earthandspace ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 12:53AM

It's a fine balanace to hold Mia. Good luck, and I hope to be able to do the same.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 01:21AM

I cringe at being repetitive. Lacking in compassion is out of the question, it has to be there. But the third fear for me would be to be one dimensional.

When I was a young art student, at BYU no less, one of my professors told us once that one of the most important things you can do for yourself as an artist, is to cram as much visual information into your head as possible. He said to look at any and every magazine for starters, study faces, look in windows...
it will all be there to draw on. You will have an unending supply of visual images in your brain that can be dealt into millions of different combinations ready to spill onto a canvass.

It's a good approach to life as well. I have tried to experience so much. I want life "full palette"---every shade of every color available.

What strikes me most though,is that that way to live is also the opposite of the mormon church. That's why I like the word oppositional. It's not a negative to me. Because I am opposed to repetetiveness (see fast and testimony meeting), I am opposed to lack of compassion ( see many mormons do nice things just for show and only for their own members), and I am opposed to one dimensionality ( see restricted mormon thinking with almost everything of value or joy in this life forbidden).

So far, you always leave me wanting to know more Mia.

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 01:41AM

You're right. Maybe oppositional isn't the right word.
After all I couldn't have left the church without being oppositional myself.
Maybe I meant confrontational without being also compassionate. What would the word for that be? I can't think of it at the moment.
I don't want to be the person who slams somebody down when they are already at the bottom.I don't want to come across as knowing all the answers to life. i want to be helpful and supportive to people who have possibly just received the shock of their life. Be that the church isn't true, or their loves have bailed.
Life is damn hard. I don't care who you are. Nobody has all of the answers.
One of the reasons I am so disgusted with the Mormons church is because it preys on the tender spots of life. You can't get any lower than that.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 01:55AM

"One of the reasons I am so disgusted with the Mormon church is because it preys on the tender spots of life. You can't get lower than that."

You really struck a chord for me with that one. I could write volumes. Just the way they "use" family as a weapon....

OK better not hijack the thread.

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 01:59AM

I don't care about hijacked threads. I'm one who changes topics in the middle of conversations all the time.

My best friend and I usually warn each other by saying "this is totally off the subject but....."

One subject leads to another . It's what makes the world go around. Hijack away.

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Posted by: paintinginthewin ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 02:18AM

What does oppositional mean to you?

does not being oppositional that mean you have to agree with everyone around you? do you have permission to use logic or analyze things? or is this "I go along"? is this a board where you must "go along"? Is that the purpose of this board? or is this a place where when someone asks for help, to point out facts and variables in a situation which may impact them & their success? (which they clearly have not indicated a knowledge of in their posting, and when they are clearly asking for advice or support in planning a response in life)

Opposition, as a female, really triggers an emotional response in me. See when I was growing up being in submission to men generally, priesthood holders at work, men in the family certainly was held in highest esteem- even when they were terribly stupid or idiots in their decisions (obviously to everyone. Plus another thing- never criticize a man. Even when, as my brother once did, he pulled down half a row of vines and a gas pump with a tractor- it might make him feel bad. After all, he's a man & you're not. He can critsize you all the time- he's a boy, and you just take it, be polite, don't fight back- support him publically privaltely etc. Patriarchy. male inheritance. don't you just you love it?)

So you aren't suggesting one needs to submit or subject themselves to submitting, or carefully kissing up to a male poster if they are female, of course, or to a poster with an important name or role in the ex mo community publically- just because of who they are- (regardless of what they say?)

I do not think male exmos or exmos with public stature would want to never have an intellectual interchange, where everyone around them simply submits to them. I really don't , I don't think that's what they're here for.

What is compassion? when one poster posted, I also had compassion for their exmo husband. I noticed that poster condescended to him, and denigrated his logic and his mind, by using the phrase "what questions" (do you have that could be resolved about the church) as if someone would change their life radically for a question (rather than a fact)... and I attempted to defend their now exmo spouse's mind, their logic, and their rational choices- based on facts (not questions which insults the exmo husband's intelligence frankly.) I also used developed the thought deliberately adding references to logic and research (ie persuasive argument, statements based on evidence- facts/ data found in sources cited) which is NOT a thought style or life style among many, so I really spelled it out. I did this to support the exmo spouse of the author in the post because the author assumed there were simply "questions" that "could be resolved." the sooner the spouse is able to treat the exmo's fact based life changes as a logical choice made based on evidence, the more validity and credibility, respect, they may lend to him. Supporting the exmo spouse getting respect- not supporting continued disrespect, and disregard as evidenced in the original statement /phrasing I quoted- is the most compassionate thing I could do to support the exmo spouse & the couple over all.
because being treated in a relationship like your ideas do not matter, when you are intelligent & well researched- is disrespectful and heinous towards a logical idealist. Reworking or re wording the exmo into the non idealist is one of the greatest miscarraige of justice I know in the mormon propoganda or word re-spin word meaning recalibration game placing social blame. I was fighting that in the post, one marraige or one person to support at a time, when I had the time (which I have far less frequently now.)

Best to you

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 02:36AM

Oppositional is a word I obviously have to give a little more thought to.
Some people I know would say I'm the type that kicks against the pricks.I actually think that's funny.
However, I don't want to be someone who opposes others at every turn just because I can. I have a sister who does that. Most people can't wait to escape her self imposed wisdom.
I don't want to be a door mat. I don't want to come across as the oracle of wisdom. I'm neither.
I think making a huge life change is causing me to seek balance in
many areas of my life.
Reading about how others are doing the same is a big help.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 02:51AM

Just my take on it.

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Posted by: lillium ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 01:09PM

Me too. To me it's knowingly going to a board that's dedicated to a certain purpose, and continually posting the opposite of what would be considered helpful on that board.

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Posted by: blueorchid ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 10:30AM

The thing I like most when painting, is expressing color in terms of its components and sub components. If I want the effect of a particular green, I would never just mix that green and use it.

Instead I apply every yellow, blue, purple and red that it takes to make that green in smaller amounts directly. Then I like to set it off with terciary contrasting colors. Likewise, I like every shade of passion and searching that is found on this board. I don't like the posts that are just the same formulaic color every time....."this is how you do it" posts.

The first time I posted here I was told within minutes by two of those type of posters, that my comments and conclusions had nothing to do with the mormon church and were just garden varietal. I was really stunned. I was new not only to forums but to the computer and I thought, well, this is a ridiculous place to be. I almost didn't come back, but then I gave it one more try and the deeper people responded, and I went on to really benefit from my time here.

Being oppositional for the sole sake of having to be right, having to be the one who knows, having to be the one who has it all together is a big negative and does fall into the category of being confrontational without compassion. I got plenty of that in the mormon church.

NO matter what you say, they know better and they want you to know they are right. They aren't looking for truth, enlightenment, or growth. They don't want to join you on a journey of discovery. No. Their sole purpose if for you to see how wise and ahead of you they are. There are a few on this board. I am opposed to them. I am opposed those who are here to champion the mormons when we are all here because of the pain that caused. That is insulting to me.

After all these years, I don't know what the hell I'm doing for sure. I like to think I have found some truths, and on some points I am sure. But I could be wrong. I love to hear from my kind, the others who feel that way. And there are plenty of those on this board.

I find I often learn more from hearing someone's honest question that I do from someone else's answer. Its why a therapist will rarely tell you what to do, but use techniques to aid your own exploration.

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Posted by: matt ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 12:41PM

Sorry... couldn't resist that. ;o))

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 21, 2012 07:48PM

I have to admit I'm guilty of being a lazy writer. If I can say something in only a word or two I will try. I haven't been able to come up with a one word description of what I'm trying to say. So for this one I'll attempt the long version.

In my family and work life there have been people who have the attitude others only exist to serve their needs. I think they are trying to give the impression that they are smarter, brighter and superior to others.

When trying to communicate with them, it seems like no thought or idea you express is ever quite right. Having the last word is huge to them. They live to argue.

They will bait you with an opposing view in hopes of starting an argument, as opposed to a discussion. The fact of the matter is, people with extreme opposing views can't engage in reasonable discussion. They create an environment that others want to avoid because of the fear of being either attacked or discounted.

It seems like their joy in life is playing devil's advocate. Constantly offering an opposing opinion when it isn't asked for. As soon as they can get a word in edge wise, their sentences begin with word "but".

The argumentative talker with the chronic opposing view who is trying to "one up" kills rapport. Their opinions are received as unwanted advice. In their effort to appear to know just about everything, the other person becomes unnecessary, or at least that's how they feel.

What people really want and need is to feel valued. Especially when they are making life changing discoveries that can alienate them from the people who have always made them feel valued. People need to feel like they matter, that it's okay to be who they are. Everyone wants to make a point and not feel like they are wrong or that ideas and experiences don''t count. It feels degrading to be constantly corrected. If that is repeatedly your experience with them, you will cease to do your best thinking, sharing, and connecting when in their presence.

It's not easy to let go of being right. Especially when you are. But we might want to ask ourselves at what cost? Is it worth taking someone down just so you can show everyone how smart you are?

While I appreciate accurate sources and documentation, I think it can be demanded at times when it doesn't really matter. In other words, someone may have a point they are trying to make and some details aren't necessary to get the point across. Constantly demanding perfection in every statement becomes more of a control issue , and can come across as intimidating, and bullying. There is no point of being proud of rationality and objectivity when there is none.

Pathological gatekeeping with frequent detailed reports and corrections dismisses the knowledge, ideas and experiences of others.

Opposition in all things gets to be a real bore. The urge to oppose sometimes gets carried to extremes. IMO it's not a good thing to be that way.

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