So I'm at my zealot catholic in-laws house today. My MIL is being argumentative about anything I bring up. I text my wife that I'm about to talk about something about my son and I text how MIL might reply.

Bullseye. Word for word.

Then, the zealot MIL makes a comment about my wife's cousin who is Catholic also, stating that she thinks her religious posts are ridiculous.

I effed up and agreed, citing a post stating the FB is the devils playground. MIL lays into me (knowing I don't believe in Satan) and proclaims that she agrees with cousin's posts (just seconds prior she didn't) and stated that when she saw that post she immediately thought of me, and that "Satan is in me because I don't believe he exists".

I counter with "any person, including me, has enough temptation of their own without the need for a angry ghost convincing people to make bad choices."

MIL says that I'm under his power. I ask "so you think he is God's counterpart? Don't you believe he can only be one place at one time?". She replies "he has power and can be everywhere at once. What stops you from doing bad things if you don't believe in hell?"

I respond "love for humanity and personal integrity. I don't need fear to motivate me."

She then asked FIL to chime in.

After the ordeal, my wife and I drive home. She gets upset with me claiming that my lack of belief is a belief and that I shouldn't convince people to "believe" like I do.

WTF????

I wanted her to either tell her parents to shut the eff up or at least acknowledge they were out of line.

Long argument ensues that she wants to stay out of it.

Fine. Next time, I pull no punches.

So, this isn't the first time people have attacked like this. Any TBMs and my in-laws.

So I'm wanting to post the following on FB but my wife is telling me this is a knee-jerk reaction and begging me not to.


"To all friends and family:

I'm agnostic/atheist.  Please accept this.  My lack of belief in what you might believe does not make me "evil" or a bad person.  I have morals based upon love for humanity.  I'll respect your beliefs as long as they don't attack me.  Mutual respect is important to me.  I'm tired of friends and family attacking and preaching to me.  Don't feel sorry for me, or feel some sense of obligation to rescue me.  I'm fine.

Should you judge me and attempt to berate me with your belief, I will respond calmly with critical arguments.

Base your love or friendship for me on something other than a mutual belief.

Thank you!"



Should I post it or not????



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2012 10:59PM by Lost Mystic.

I really don't know your in-laws, or their idiosyncrasies, so I can't say one way or the other.

But if it was me, I would post it. I think you said what needed to be said.

There is nothing wrong with what you just wrote. It is calm, rational and very reasonable.

BTW, I'm stealing your description of satan. Well done with that one. :)

My view? Don't discuss religion or politics. Plenty of other subjects.
This is advice from my grand"dad" who was born in the late 1800's! His advice to me when I was a young girl: Susie, if you want to keep a friend, don't discuss religion or politics.
I like that advice!!

Your post is inflammatory and unnecessary. It does not enlighten, uplift or illuminate any point that you did not already make verbally.

Mormons believe ALL who are not Mormons need saving. An atheist telling a Mormon he doesn't need saving will be effective? That he's "Fine" will make them say, "Okey Dokey, then..." and there will be no more problems?

You would be incredibly naive to believe that.

Posting this on Facebook will make you feel better for a hot one and then tomorrow morning you will reread it with empathy, pretending you are a family member, and you will feel the judgment and accusation behind it. There's a good chance you will be blocked by family members who are "sure" you are talking about them. Others will take sides and there will be infamous Facebook Flame Wars.

This post just throws gasoline on a smoldering campfire.

Over time, if you temper your speech, you will gain true respect the old-fashioned way--by earning it. They will see that you are a decent, loving, tolerant man, a good husband, a good father and anyone who says something as ridiculous and hurtful as "Satan is in him because he doesn't believe in him" would deserve a wink from you and your rejoinder,

"Well if you smell something really bad, it's probably me. I don't believe in Bigfoot and we all know that must mean he is inside me."

Anagrammy

MIL is coming in very low on the Kohlberg scale: "Do the right thing because if you don't, you'll be punished." She's showing very little in the way of moral development. It's pointless to argue with her or debate her. I would take religion off the table as a topic of conversation. Or just take it in a joking matter -- if she's afraid the Devil will get to you, tell her to let you know when she sees horns developing. Or to beware of your barbed tail. Or say to her that since she's so religious, perhaps she should say some extra prayers for you. Take her less than seriously.

The proposed Facebook post is not a bad post. I just think that it's not the most productive course of action in this instance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 06:18PM by summer.

My last few threads over the last few weeks have you calling me out Anagrammy!

I can't tell if I irk you or if it's just good ole' motherly advice!

Perhaps I'm reading into it too much, but I kind of feel fussed at! Lol

You tell me what is good for me to hear, and not that I should care, but I respect you so much that I hope you like me...lol

Anagrammy, I've often sought your posts here because I agree with your views and also I like the way you write. In this case however I disagree.

I believe Lost Mystic is merely setting boundaries by posting this on his status. If he gets unfriended or flamed, then he will have known who his real family and friends are. Myself, I post all sorts of comments and links that are clearly atheist and sometimes anti-religion. But I still have many friends all over the place whom I speak and meet with on a regular basis and are from a variety of religious backgrounds. They are the ones who have made a choice to respect me for who I am and not my lack of religious beliefs.

The Ultra Religionists by nature don't respect decent, loving, tolerant good husbands. They put their beliefs at the fore and, forgive the pun, the hell with everything else including relationships.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 01:46AM by charles, buddhist punk.

Crap, I typically agree with BOTH Charles the Buddhist Punk and with Amagrammy, so now what the hell do I do? ;>)

On this one, I think the OP would be better served posting something, but in much softer language. Think about who all is on your friends list. There may be some people who *like* straightaway and you'll be defriended by about the same percentage.

Consider this: Just post the text of the 11th Article of Faith. In quotes. No commentary. No editorializing. No judgment. I think that gets your message across, fights fire with fire (use their own beliefs against them), and I'm sorry to say, there is no cure for mouthy MILs except firm boundary setting. Your wife is passive and terrified of confrontation. She is scared to be ostracized from her tribe. I wouldn't push it because of her, but I wouldn't be a doormat either. Rule of thumb: if it's in your house, you get to say what you want because it's your castle and your kingdom and your rules. At other people's houses, you should show them some respect even if they aren't respecting you as their guest. People forget that family are STILL guests, so sometimes manners fly right out the window. Good manners don't cost nothin'. However. To me, it's beyond the pale to stand there in someone else's house and be told I'm under the influence of Satan. That insults me from the standpoint that I'm an independent thinker and I don't do a DAMN thing anyone tells me, even Satan himself. So I resent being told I'm so weak-minded that I need a ghost to tell me how to act and what to do. What I would do in that situation is put down my fork, politely say my goodbyes and leave without another word, even right in the middle of dinner. Don't put up with disrespect, but don't take a gun to a knife fight either.

Thanks CBP and dogzilla -- I consider you both kindred spirits.

I feel I should clarify: my suggestion applies to family only. There are special rules which apply, in my view, and here's why.

The OP would find himself having to "explain" his hostile post. Not that his post IS hostile; however, one can appreciate with contemplation how it would be viewed as such by his Mormon family.

My underlying assumption is that he loves his family and would like nothing better than to see them follow him and also leave the church. That may or may not be accurate. He may instead need the ego strengthening which comes with a virtual firebombing of those who have persecuted him.

One of the ironies of self-discovery is that one must have a strong ego to deny it power over one's mouth. Or, to put it another way, sometimes the path to recovery is not a straight line, rather a windy, twisted path revisiting stages of life missed due to indoctrination by others.

My point is, he may well need to post. Only he can decide which action best suits his journey to recovery. Dogzilla sees clearly that both approaches may be "best" for the OP.

Peace

Anagrammy

Remember that your in laws most likely think very little of a man posessed by the devil.....so don't give them more fuel by being reactionary to their mud slinging. They have NO loyality to you therefore you will never have a relationship of trust.

Let them know jesus is just working 20 times harder to build your testimony by giving you a clear enough mind that you can meditate on good things instead of evil things that drive away good thoughts.

Since they are such mystical and magical believers use it to your advantage. Tell them that you started believing in satan after your last conversation with them. And the experience prompted you to counsel with a priesthood leader about the dark spirit you felt as they spoke to you.....and the darkness that appeared around their body as they said the destroyers name in their house. Then tell them you were counseled to exhort them to rededicate their house through prayer and cast satan out because they invited him in their home.

You could put them over the top by offering to do the dedication. Make sure to use plenty of warnings about such discussions being a danger and leaving the door cracked for satan to take hold of their hearts again. hahaha too funny



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 04:37AM by upsidedown.

If my parents were to invite my husband and me over, I would expect both to treat each other with respect, the same respect that even a non-relative would expect as a guest in someone's home, and a guest would owe to their host and hostess.

It seems that it is "open season" at this family's gatherings.

Your spouse is the one thing that both sides have in common...for the sake of their child and your spouse rules of behavior should have already been set in place, but the fact that up to now this type of behavior has existed would indicate that rules or no, it will continue.

Perhaps family could meet in some neutral area, a restaurant or park.

If the main point of (that) family being together is to bash someone's religion, then is the time to excuse yourself from
the table, the room, or even the home.

It does not matter if it is you or another family member who is present or not being bashed. That is small-minded mean-spirited behavior, and I for one would not want to be involved even if it is as a non-participating member of the group.

This will work only if your spouse is also willing to set limits on what type of behavior is socially acceptable to witness. Bearing in mind that small-minded mean-spirited people can be very vindictive.

I do hope that children are not witness to such hate-filled remarks...that would be more than unacceptable.

You spouse is upset by the tone of the visit and lays it at your feet. Justified or not in her feelings that you are at fault, she loves her parents and you. She must know that she can not stop her parents, and has laid the burden for "getting along" at your feet. I know this does not seem fair or even being loyal to you as her spouse. Maybe in her eyes, you are more powerful than you really are and she expects you to use that power to make things go smoothly. I think that perhaps she has some growing up to do. Perhaps as a couple, you both lack some maturity...that is not a put-down as the concept of "couple's maturity" is a topic that is seldom addressed or even acknowledged.

We are many "people" in our life, while at the same time we are one person. We are our father's child and our mother's child, while at the same time we are the child of our parents. That is three "people" that we are just in this situation. People in this context is the word used to denote that part of your personna representation.

Without going into more detail (there is a whole field of study on this) when you are part of a couple, the behavior that you extend (give) to others (as a couple) as well as what you (as a couple) expect to receive (take) is different than what as an individual you would "give and take".

The main problem is not with your boorish in-laws, but that you and your spouse as a couple have not set your own rules and boundries to your couple-entity. Your couple entity is important because without it, you are (always) two seperate individuals and never the couple.

As there are many ways to handle any situation, you as a couple should discuss which ways that the both of you can come together as a couple and stand united in this and other situations.

I think that this "problem" has created an opportunity to make for a better, more solid and rewarding relationship for you and your spouse.

Why shouldn't you convince people to believe like you? Because they don't like it?

The profound emotions that people attach to their beliefs is the great enemy of human progress. It alone gives people the idea that they need to stop discussing fundamental truths with each other, under the disguise that they don't wish to offend each other.

If I were a Star Trek character, I would definitely be a vulcan.

Be sure to take into account a common misconception that believers have about atheists/agnostics.

They think atheism is a "belief" just like theirs, that people choose to want to believe it, and then they go out and cherry-pick a bunch of facts that support it.

This is incredibly stupid and false but the notion is widely held nonetheless and also promoted by churches.

From this perspective your post is also incendiary and only promotes a "he said/she said" flame war as others have suggested.

In this vein, how about this as a Facebook post:

"To all friends and family:

I love you all dearly. Please accept this. My lack of belief in what you might believe bothers me a great deal, and I can sense that it sometimes bothers you. I so yearn to believe as you do. However, after much pondering and thought I have concluded that there is enough confusion in the world for me to demand that I base my beliefs on reasonable evidence. Requiring evidence does not make me "evil" or a bad person nor am I lacking in morals or love of humanity. I am happy to respect your beliefs but please don't attack me just because I want to "prove all things". Mutual respect should be important to all of us. Don't feel sorry for me, or feel some sense of obligation to rescue me either. I'm content with the knowledge that truth is shown over time by evidence and I am fine waiting for truth to be manifest through careful analysis. I am happy to consider any evidence by anyone at anytime.

Love you all,

Lost Mystic the Evidentialist

I have found that calling myself an evidentialist is not nearly as radioactive as being an atheist, since the word has been twisted so much and carries a pejorative connotation for believers. You are open to evidence. Bring it, if you have it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 12:05PM by rodolfo.

A sense of reality, my man:

"If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people." (Dr. House)

You can post it, but you won't get traction except with reasonable persons. G'luck.

I see no reason why anyone SHOULD take offense at what you want to post, however, you know as well as I do, they will!
So the question is what do you hope to accomplish by posting this? To help them have a better understanding of you? I dont think that will be the outcome. To set boundries that shouldnt be crossed? Yeah, fat chance on that one! When dealing with family and particularly dealing with issues involving religion with family, boundries will habitually be crossed all the time! Now if you just want to give them fair warning about what to expect should they ever cross this line again, and to hell with whatever repercussions your words might have, you need to get alot nastier than that! Your wife might be right about this being a knee jerk reaction! Cooler heads prevail and I think I would just write the post on a piece of paper but not on Facebook (you know, self therapy! LOL!) and than just throw it away! Time is on your side and you have nothing to prove, but in time your integrity will speak for itself proving that their assumptions about you are not correct!

it is non confrontational and to the point...i think it is freat since FB is all about the person whos page it is!!!
just sayin!

You might use a version of that great quote from Bill Maher, when somebody says that "lack of belief is a belief" or "atheism is a religion, too!"

He said claiming that atheism is a religion (or lack of belief is a belief) is like claiming that total abstinence is a sexual position.

Another version (I don't remember the source): atheism is as much as religion as NOT collecting stamps is a hobby.

Honestly, you were accused of being possessed by the devil. I think that's pretty rude on the part of the mother in law to say. Your wife seems scared you will offend her family. She's in their side pocket.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 02:54PM by suckafoo.

after someone s*** bombed my page because they disagreed with a link I posted.

Mine was much shorter and also self-deprecating, but I think it got the point across:

"Hate me because I'm an asshole, not because I'm an atheist."

:)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 03:24PM by elee.

It's obviously way past time to start setting boundaries, but inflaming the situation publicly sounds like a drama queen move.

Tell your wife that you refuse to be insulted so openly and that you won't be spending any more time with her parents unless she ropes them in. Apologize for anything you might have done that allowed this situation to get so out of control, and then refuse to go back unless there are clear rules in place. Let your wife handle it. They are her family, and it is her responsibility.

This might be a big growth opportunity for her. The more difficult it is for her, the more she needs to do it. Don't even tell her how, just keep out of it.

Thanks for all of your replies! They have given me a lot to chew on.

I've decided not to post it.

I need to find a way of being loving and assertive at the same time, and to not allow myself to get baited into these fights.

I have some growing I need to do...

Hopefully I can get to the point of coming up with the wisdom of yalls replies in my own mind!

I'm just proud of myself for realizing I needed to seek advice instead of reacting on emotion by shooting first and asking questions later :)

And by pray, I mean email me.

Hehe. Thanks Raptor!

It wasn't the fun thing or even the fair thing.

But - life is really about picking your battles.

This particular one may not be worth it.

With that being said, maybe sometime you can ask your wife what is more appropriate/less appropriate/equally appropriate:

Telling someone that they are being controlled by Satan, or calling someone a deluded bitch?

We all have to make our own decisions, but there is nothing you need to do. You do not need to be loving to this person, and you do not need to be assertive (though, I think your original message was fairly assertive).

If you didn't post it, you should do it because of what you want to do, not because of what anyone tells you that you need to do. Although, I would guess that keeping a happy marriage and a happy homelife might be a good reason to change your tune.

Also, if you rewrite it with softer language, you run the risk of losing the original message. It was very tame as it was. If you ever decide to communicate your feelings on the matter, don't drown what you need to say in euphamisms and niceties, otherwise nobody will get your message.

Your wife is right.

Both about being upset with your discussion with her parents and about facebook.

It often happens that people with different beliefs can discuss those differences in a constructive manner.

This is clearly not the case with your in-laws. They likey felt just as attacked as you did. So the best thing to do in the future is to avoid the subject and focus on other things.

If they ever bring it up again, just say something simple like, "I'd rather not discuss that, let's talk about something else." Or even better have a couple go to subjects in mind: "I'd rather not talk about that, but how's your favorite sports team doing."

If they try multiple times to bring it up just repeat "I'd rather not discuss that" until they drop it. You can use variations like "We disagree on that. We'll just have to respect each other's right to disagree."

Reason's she is right:
It is upsetting to her and damaging to your most important relationship.

Posting this is simply going to put up much larger walls between you and your in-laws. Huge ones just got erected. It would be wise to being lowering them instead of fortifying them.

You loose all control of what happens to a statement when you post it on facebook. You have not ability to control how it is intrepreted by other people and no ability to use body language to get your true intent across. It make give you some emotional satisfaction but it isn't going to go anywhere good.

It's easy to just make that response if someone brings it up. "I'm an atheist and that is my right. If you want to discuss this respectfully I'd enjoy the discussion, but neither of us is going to change the other person's mind."

If you really want to post something perhaps you could say something like: "I just wanted to let everyone know I am an angnostic/atheist. I'm still the same me, for example I still believe in morals. I'm happy to talk about it, but only if we can do so without attacking each other for believing differently." Nah, even that still doesn't sound like something that get's your message across without further upsetting your wife and further damaging the relationship with your in-laws.

It will make YOU look like a troublemaking jerk, not them.

Have you ever seen a situation when someone has been goaded beyond endurance and shouts really loudly at just the time when, by chance, everything goes quiet?

Who is the person who looks bad then? The goader or the goadee?

The goadee, because everyone heard their shouting, but nobody else heard the goading.

Post something like this: "Hey! Guess what? I just realised that we don't all have to believe the same stuff! But we can still love the people in our lives who are important to us, even though we don't believe the same stuff! And that's cool!"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 06:10PM by matt.