What is it like to have your wife disabled for the last twenty years? How does that change your life? Your outlook on life?

What is it like to deal with wheelchair and toilet issues--all the time? How does the challenge of life in a wheelchair suck the life out of everything else until everything is about the damn wheelchair and the bathroom and the bathing and all of the lost dignity?

How does it feel to be helping your wife in the restroom, and suddenly, because of unfortunate circumstance, be made to feel like a pervert? Does all the emotion of lost dreams well up inside of you? Are you horrified to the core at being looked at like that? Are you embarrassed beyond belief to the point where you just want out of that room, as fast as you can,--any way you can? Do you panic from the trauma? Could a gazelle being chased by a lion want to get away any more?

Many knew you were there. Some did not. Very poor judgement by many?

You know what's ahead now from the reaction you got. You aren't prepared. You have irrevocably upset someone. Nothing prepares you for this. You know no explanation is going to be accepted.

The mortification is unbearable.

We do not know Joseph Smith was a prophet, we don't know that the BoM is true, and we don't know what was in that man's mind and heart.

Were any one's actions right or wrong? I don't know that either, I just miss empathy.

What about empathy for the people using the restroom that didn't expect a man in there???

No prior action taken of someone standing at the door saying "man in there helping his wife...come back in 3 minutes?"


Sorry, I think empathy is what was missing in the story.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2012 11:51PM by Lost Mystic.

I never said there shouldn't be empathy for the people surprised by the man, there should, just not only them.

I did say the situation was handled poorly by many.

I do not understand your point.

I guess I don't understand your point either. So I hope we can politely agree to disagree and remain on pleasant terms :)

You know how to get in another person's skin. I'd like to learn how to do that.

I have no idea how to get in another person's skin. I do wonder what they think, how they feel, and why they do things, but it ends there of course.

That's how you do it. You stop and wonder what they think, how they feel, and why they do things.

No problem, but I honestly have no idea what we are disagreeing about, however.

This was not intended to be confrontational in any way. I just always look at the flip side of things. I am not one to take anything at face value since I left the church.

For Lost Mystic, I just posted in the wrong spot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 12:07AM by blueorchid.

I know a couple that are in this situation. Except it's the husband in the wheel chair.

To answer your question....it's hell on earth. I could go into details, but it wouldn't do much good. Unless you are in this hell you can't wrap your mind around it.

I hope nobody reading this ever has to find out for themselves what it's like.

Thanks, Mia. That is what I meant. And all I meant. Life is rough, and severe health issues really make it hell, not just for the disabled, but for the caregiver.

Can you imagine the stress of going through that, even for love? I have watched friends crumble from it. It tears at your heart.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 12:11AM by blueorchid.

Is that the man in this story was not actually "helping his wife in the bathroom." She was not using the toilet. She was sitting there eating a cracker. Does that really need to be done in the restroom, with the husband present? He wasn't feeding her, either, if he had the freedom to wander around the restroom looking at other people.

I have heard this story, which Q likes to repost off and on each year, for about a decade now.

I have seen the various sides of this topic...ad nauseum.

I questioned Q about the location and handicap facility in her church building. This was during a time I was mightily pissed off at cruel nincompoop's behavior while I was a caregiver for my Dad. (I am a woman). I have found authority figures relegate me and my loved one to some pretty shitty, not to mention...inappropriate...locations.

So...as a caregiver for now, two adult men I have loved in my life, I will tell you that room....the cry room, woman's nursing room, handicapped room...WAS the designated room this man was allowed to locate in during meeting. The meeting was piped into that room for the benefit of those located there. The Mormon Bishop did not take the proper action to protect the handicapped, nor designate that restroom during that hour with proper signage. There was another woman's restroom.

The fault is not on the caregiver, given permission. Regardless of what anyone thinks he "should have done", he was given approval to locate....for however long they determined.

The fault is not on Q or her adult daughter. They were caught off guard, handled it poorly, knowing the woman and man's situation. Everything was blown out of proportion, if it happened that way at all. (Q admitted she knew the woman and the man to me in previous years). I do think Q tends to embellish her stories to make them entertaining. Sadly, as a caregiver...this one was not humorous, just painful to read.

The fault for the unfortunate situation lies with the leadership of the ward during that period of time. The man had to enter and exit the woman's bathroom to get to the location he was permitted to locate, from Q's version of the location to me several years ago. The man may have been looking around the corner to see if the coast was clear to exit. We do not know. What we do know...the caregiver had permission to locate both of the rooms with his disabled spouse.

The leadership/Bishop, hurt many people with the lack of training and appropriate steps in his building that particular day. What do you expect of volunteer, part time, untrained clergy? You get what you pay for.

Even more sad to me....Q decided to not only "run yelling and screaming" out of that room, but also reported this caregiver to government authorities. It angers caregivers to know this could happen to them. The entire situation makes me, someone who has trench time as a caregiver ....sad.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 11:37AM by wings.

As someone who has close friends who are caregivers in some pretty intense situations, I really appreciate your post.

Stress is difficult. It can change casual people into intense people over time. There are many involuntary responses of the mind that cause people to feel shame, guilt, and anger as a way to cope with stress.

Stress is defined differently by people. Shocking behavior for one person, is acceptable behavior for others. Man in womans bathroom makes one person go "code red". Another may handle it differently.

Relatively speaking there is no right or wrong, there are only situations with perspectives that may change. Paradime shift.

Thanks for this post. It made me think.

Thank you so much for broadening the scope. Very thoughtful comments.

The man had no business in the ladies restroom without there being some kind of notice for women who need to use the restroom knowing that he was there.
For him to be allowed to go into the Women's even with the permission of the Bishop (another man) is totally out of bounds.
His violent "attack" with the wheelchair shows that he "was not a gazelle excaping", but rather a overbearing inconsiderate who would use his wife in a wheelchair as a weapon.
From the account given, the wheelchair woman was not using the restroom facilities, but the "mother's room" whatever that is. If it is a room for nursing infants, what is it doing "in" the ladies restroom? I think it is distrubing that where a woman is to nurse her infant is situated through the toilet. It that the best the LDS Church can do for their mothers and infants? A Mother's room should be totally seperate from toilet facilites...and both should be "off bounds" to any man, with or without a woman in a wheelchair.
It does not matter if the man was a pervert using his wife as an excuse to "look" or not...he was where he was not suppose to be (permission or not)...and just who has the right to give a man permission to go in and out of the Women's facilities...much less without setting up a proper procedure to handle the situation.
This whole account is just another proof of how STUPID the men who run the Church are. Men who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit...and that is all it is, a claim!

Your post is rather passionate since the whole account is not based on actual fact, but hearsay, which may be accurate or blurred. I do not know.

I am exploring here, that is all. I do agree that it was all handled improperly.

What bothers me is the amount of judgement being thrown around without any other perspective, like the man's and his wife's version--even the bishops version.

I don't think any one acted wrongly necessarily. It is an unfortunate incident, but not having been there, I do not feel like judging the man to be a crazed pervert.

All I know is that when a woman has to go into the Men's (for instance for cleaning, etc.), it's the woman that gets the sympathy.
And now - when a man gets into a Woman's, it's the women that get the sympathy then too?

Every time I've read the story I've always felt worse for the man than for SuzieQ. I think it's because, when I see such strong emotion coming from the storyteller, I project that emotion onto the surrounding characters, and then try to view it from their angle as well. I don't see such strong emotions being directed towards SusieQ. That's not to say the church isn't to blame. Wings's analysis of the story makes the most sense to me, by far.

"try to view it from their angle as well"---yes.

Thank you, Kimball. Watching loved one's disappear before your eyes, doing that 24/7 for months or years? Devastating.

To think one would be reported to legal authorities? Horrifying.

Imagine this scenerio. When the man was noticed, and since it was well known to Q that this elderly man was a full time caregiver for his wife, a simple..."Excuse me, I did not know you and your wife were here. Do you need a bathroom break and we can sit with your wife a few minutes for you?"

Or, "Anything we could do for a few minutes to assist you?"

Or, "Would you like us to place an occupied sign on this restroom?"

What a different outcome the story COULD have had.

But, I am at the end of 8 months of 24/7 caregiving for a loved one on chemo, 3 hospital stays in that time, and two surgeries. My "opinion" may be one of compassion, based on my own situation.

I don't understand this. None of you were there. Nobody but Susie had the experience. Some of you want to tell her what happened when it happened to her and her family. No, it's not appropriate for any man to be in the restroom without prior warning. He could have said something to them to indicate he was in there. Like , hey sister susie! I'm in here. Just letting you know!

Then again, I wasn't there and I enjoy the story but don't feel the need to tell Susie how everything went down or how she *should* have handled it. Why can't you just appreciate the story for what it is instead of telling her how she was wrong.

I would never say she was wrong. Empathy begs for the man and woman to be considered as well. I am surprised that something so painful would be an enjoyable story. It was hard for me to read.

I respect Susie's right to tell it. I do not think anyone did anything wrong necessarily. I always like to look at the flip side and wondered if anyone else felt the same.

I have neighbors across the street--well, the wife died some years ago. When his wife had a stroke, he refused to have her get physical therapy and he did take care of her for the rest of her life. She was much younger than he was.

This man has always been good to my husband/ex, but rude as can be to me. I can very much seeing him do this very thing that the man Susie ran into. Would I have empathy for him? Absolutely not. My neighbor is a bully in every sense of the word. And he is very much a perv--yes, I know from my own experience.

So--only those involved know the truth.

And having dealt with mormon authorities and their abuses--I have PTSD from dealing with mormon leaders.

That isn't exactly hearsay to the poster. It's their report of their own experience. Sorry, but I don't think RfM's job is to discount a person's account of what they saw and felt since that's what *they* are recovering from.

Mormons who don't come here aren't in need of our help or advice. We care about them and can try to nudge people to be kind to them, but if they wanted and needed us, they'd be the ones reading and participating.

I know I don't like RfMer attempts to diminish me for telling what I see, hear, and feel in my own personal experience. I received a constant barrage of this for at least five years here over my aversion to having mormon strangers harass me. About half of the replies claimed I was lying and claimed I owed the mormon harassers support and consideration. In my opinion if the nonposting disinterested TBMs who are referenced here are considered more important and crdible than the posters, RfM serves no valued need in recovery.

Please understand Cheryl, I consider Susie's telling of the story to be a first hand account and my use of the term hearsay in no way reflects on Susie's integrity. It is her story. She should tell it if she wants to.

Anyone listening to it or referring to it thereafter, is working from hearsay, technically, if I understand the term correctly. With the amount of court cases I have been involved in, I do think I get it.

I was specifically going another direction with this thread, but everyone wants to pull it back to what the other threads were. I wanted it to be jumping off point for a discussion on empathy.

I am not one to look at things in black and white, but as a general rule see things in more shades of grey than you can imagine. I like exploring how everyone felt, why they acted the way they did, including the man, even if he is not a member of this board. I do not see that as a threat to Susie, I hope she doesn't either.

It is enjoyable because it is her experience. Something similar could have happened to someone else. I enjoy good and bad stories because they are experiences that someone else has had and people can learn from them. You can take a lesson away from an equally negative story as a positive one. It is a choice to become riled by what a poster writes (not saying you do that, just in general). What I take issue with is people on the board telling Susie what happened and how she should have handled it. Yes, it could have been handled differently by both parties but it wasn't. None of us were there but Susie. Nobody was in the bathroom with them. As easily as Susie *could* have handled it differently, that man could have announced his presence in the room. She was eating and not using the restroom as far as I know.

I'm a nurse and worked years as a caregiver and specialized working with alzheimers and dementia patients as well as stroke victims. I am also a cancer sufferer (hopefully a survivor) and I can empathize with that man and his wife, more than a lot of people but I was not there. I did not have the experience. I cannot tell someone else that their experience is too old to share, or that it should have been done differently. I just don't understand that way of thinking.

You have handled it well (I wasn't singling you out), without attacking and speaking your mind. I appreciate open discussion and choose not to get upset by what anybody posts. They are all stories and opinions. Doesn't make mine right or anybody else for that matter.

Thankyou rosyjenn. I did not open this post for any other reason than to look at the flip side or broaden the scope. I do empathize with those in difficult situations. It is easy for any of us to say, but we weren't there.

I was not looking for a discussion as to whether Susie was right or wrong in any way. It was only my intention to look at the whole picture, with empathy for everyone.

I actually have only drawn one conclusion and that is, Put a sign on the door for heaven' sake."

I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your response.

I think it's time to put this 10 year old horse to rest.
Put a marker on the grave so he doesn't get dug up again.

This is what is know as an analogy.

I only left the church within the last several months. I have appreciated this board so much.

That said... I thought it was a safe place to post an opinion. I suppose I was wrong. Ironic.

people with a lot of opinions and they express them. If you express an opinion, do expect it to get challenged. It doesn't mean your's isn't valid.

I've learned a lot from this board from reading all sides of the issues, but it did take a while to develop a thick skin and not take it personally. Nobody here knows you--so try not to take it as a personal attack.