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Posted by: ElderHollandshadow ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 01:24AM

Elder Holland has just announced in a conference in Ghana that 8 new missions are to be created in Africa this year. He also said the churches 3000th stake will be created this year.

http://www.lds.org/church/news/elder-holland-tells-ghanaian-saints-to-be-their-best?lang=eng

Hey, if you guys still have LDS accounts you also might want to use the church directory of organizations and leaders. Even if you're not a leader daily congregation numbers are shown, showing where congregations, stakes, districts and missions are closed and opened.

According to it the USA has 13648 congregations, a record high total.

What do you guys think of this? LD$ might be able to fill Africa but they can't get any tithing from it surely? its worthless to them?

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Posted by: psalso ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 01:26AM

the link for the directory is https://cdol.lds.org/cdol/ now those are OFFICIAL church numbers. The ones you don't get to see daily.

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Posted by: Levi ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 01:34AM

and dern it all if I didn't resign last year! I could have used my member number.

sigh....

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Posted by: Jesus Smith ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 08:20AM

psalso Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the link for the directory is
> https://cdol.lds.org/cdol/ now those are OFFICIAL
> church numbers. The ones you don't get to see
> daily.


I logged in, but then it asks:

" Enter reason for needing CDOL access "
with a "Send Request" (presumably to an LDS email box)

I have no justification and have been "inactive" for five years. I don't want to hit the radar screen.

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Posted by: Leah ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 01:32AM

Afriiiiiika LOL.

And yet all the morg leaders are white.

What's wrong with that picture?

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Posted by: fetching49 ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 01:33AM

You know I can't say I'm surprised. It's only logical that they are expanding in areas where Google isn't readily avaliable.

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Posted by: questionman ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 01:37AM

Google is avaliable in New Zealand, but the Auckland mission gets 1800 baptisms a year. How so???

They had the priesthood ban, but why are they so happy to baptize africans en masse?

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Posted by: spanner ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:45AM

There may be 1800 baptisms, but that is not the growth rate in NZ; while there may be increases in Pacific Islander dense areas of South Auckland, branches in the rest of the country are consolidating.

We didn't get a census last year, because of the earthquake, so they may be playing around with the numbers while they can.

The 2006 census had self reported Mormons at about half of the official LDS figures. Between 2001 to 2006 only Pacific Islanders showed a small increase relative to the general population - probably due to both PI and LDS being markers for increased fertility. The small PI increase was balanced by drops in other demographics. In the absence of a census, it is possible that they are making inroads in some immigrant group, but their traditional target group is PI FOB (fresh off the boat).

Maori are leaving in droves - their numbers grew less than the Maori population increase, and most of the current (NZ wide) Maori population are children. So the faithful are not breeding fast enough to replace departing adults, and when the present batch of teens leave home, and church, the rift will widen.

I posted a summary of census data a couple of years ago. Had been waiting for the new census, but the quake happened a couple of weeks before it was due. It was shaping up to look pretty bad - closing CCNZ was the last straw for a lot of people. Wards/Branches are consolidating, and members in the pews are primarily grandparents and grandchildren being babysat. There is most of a generation missing.

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Posted by: helemon ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 01:47AM

Many Africans may be poor, but the continent is resource rich. Many of the bloddiest wars happening in Africa are over oil and rare earth metals. Since the church loves to buy real estate it will help them to have local converts to work on their behalf in opening doors for their investment arm.

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Posted by: forbiddencokedrinker ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:07AM

How long until the church starts running its own tribal militia's in order to protect it's African real estate? I might have found the one calling that could bring me back into the church.

That calling be as a war lord.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 02:08AM by forbiddencokedrinker.

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Posted by: Lucky ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:24AM

helemon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many Africans may be poor, but the continent is
> resource rich.
> ...Since the church loves to buy real estate
> it will help them to have local converts to work
> on their behalf in opening doors for their
> investment arm.

SUDDENLY LDS INC interest in African membership starts to make sense....

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Posted by: bingoe4 ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:08AM

It helps with the American retention to make it look like growth. I am sure they don't tell the people that there was a priesthood ban before. Of course there will be explosive Those poor simple people will se the rich Americans and want to be like them, maybe think that there is a possibility to come to America, probably feel "the spirit" and be conned into joining.

Although in places like the Philippines we had tons of members in HUGE wards with 800 members and 70 or less active members. It will be the same there. Which countries are they gonna be in? I'll write a couple letters to foreign diplomats here in the states and to there visa offices in the countries. Can't hurt to let them know who they'll have in there country. Wasn't there a European country that almost kicked them out recently?

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Posted by: woahwait ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:13AM

Actually, retention in Africa is higher on average than anywhere else, for reasons I don't know but my source is the LDS church growth blog.

In the Democratic Republic of the Congo, the retention is 90% and this is with 3000-4000 baptisms a year. The high retention is evident by the mass creation of new congregations.

To write to diplomats attacking the church, isn't that going a bit far?? I mean you don't have to believe, but if you wrote that against islam/judaism imagine the outcry you'd get? come on

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Posted by: nonamekid ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:23AM

Any numbers coming from The Cult are so suspect as to be essentially unbelievable.

People here who have tracked the membership numbers given by The Cult in GC have identified some years for which in order for the numbers to be consistent, there would have had to have been a negative death rate among Mormons. So, either they have started resurrecting people, or their numbers are as phony as a $17 bill.

Unless you have a source besides LD$, Inc., your claims are not likely to be believed.

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Posted by: bingoe4 ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:35AM

I don't think that is going to far at all. I don't just not believe. I accept the church as one of the great evils in the world. No joking at all. The simple people who are converting have no defense. They are being taken advantage of. I will fight against the church for the rest of my life. All my friends know what a joke it is. They know that if they ever hear of someone taking the discussions to have them talk to me. If Islam and Judaism weren't so established And I'd been members of them I'd write against them too.

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Posted by: Mateo Pastor ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 03:52AM

woahwait Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To write to diplomats attacking the church, isn't
> that going a bit far?? I mean you don't have to
> believe, but if you wrote that against
> islam/judaism imagine the outcry you'd get?


Oh no. Lots of moderate muslims and jews here in Belgium quietly inform the authorities of overzealous groups that enter their neighbourhoods. Then later the police pick on them every time they try to proselytize. I'm sure similar things happen in other countries.

Of course, people in poor countries may have other worries than the cult of the neighbours.

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Posted by: Mateo Pastor ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 03:47AM

bingoe4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wasn't there a
> European country that almost kicked them out
> recently?

Not really, but some countries, including Belgium, keep lists of religious sects deemed "staatsgevaarlijk" as they call it (subversive, trying to undermine the state). The LDS are on the list, together with Scientology and a whole lot of radical muslim groups. However, the authorities usually chase the violent groups first, and the money-suckers second.

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Posted by: rt ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 04:03AM

Mateo Pastor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not really, but some countries, including Belgium,
> keep lists of religious sects deemed
> "staatsgevaarlijk"

Is this a public list? Do you have a link?

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Posted by: Thomas $. Monson ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 06:28AM

bingoe4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Wasn't there a European country that almost kicked them out recently?


Switzerland?
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home2/53185712-183/church-lds-romney-hatch.html.csp

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Posted by: sharapata ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:33AM

Stake 2000 was created 18 years ago back in 1994 whereas stake 1000 was created in 1979 (15 years prior to 1994). This alone proves that the growth of the Church has significantly slowed down from the Church's true glory growth decades of the 70s and 80s.

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Posted by: sharapata ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:40AM

...the Church has to create a MINIMUM of 53 stakes by the end of the year to reach 3000. I say MINIMUM because this doesn't account for stakes that will be consolidated this year. Only one stake has been created in 2012 thus far (they're already running far behind the 4-5 per month average).

In 2011, the Church created 60 stakes (with about a dozen of these being newly formed bogus Young Single Adult Stakes mostly in Utah), but discontinued 10 stakes leaving a net gain of 50 stakes.

Sources:

http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/statistics/units/

http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/

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Posted by: Zeezromp ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 04:40AM

Is it possible that they just actually believe in their restoration church and that since 1978 Blacks need to have the full gospel saving ordainances and believe 'God' is guiding them that way?

It doesn't make much sense to me financially as it could be draining resources, but do they even have much choice as
I would say that the church is growing of its own accord in Africa without any need for LDS type Western PR, perhaps out of the control of the White Guys in Salt Lake? lol

I think that many TBM Mormons really do believe that it was God who really did ban Blacks (God only truly knows why etc) until 1978 much like the early Christian 'church' was seemingly exclusively Jewish until Peters dream (1978 style).

I do realise I sould a little like a Mormon Apologist today? Sorry about that.

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Posted by: upsidedown ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 05:06AM

Elder Holland can start with a priesthood blessing to cure aids.

Next he can throw some of the profit from the mall opening to eradicating the childhood malnutrition that is rampant.

Then he can get off his fat backside and assign missionaries to help fight against the gangs that run the child sex slave industry.

Then he could try to change a culture that believes in cutting the clitoris off their daughters and men who refuse marriage unless it is.

Good luck changing the cultural myth that having sex with a virgin will cure aids in the infected men. And a culture that believes burning your baby on your chest will cure aids in women.

Mormon mystical and magical preaching should take off like wildfire over there.....problem is they will want to hump a missionary to be HIV free.

The average IQ in the areas with malnutrition and starving people is borderline down syndrome and most don't read or write. Most of the population is infected with HIV and do not live to see their 30's.

The church will be baptizing like wildfire but it will not add to the expansion of the church...it will become as uncomfortable to the Utah mormons as a day in the projects in the ghetto. Mormons don't have the drive or the devotion to make a difference and take on real problems that are messy and difficult.

And all the church will do is publish talks and videos of "wonder bread boy Bednar",telling amazing stories of faith and devotion of the people making a dollar a day handing over ten cents to the LDS church to pay tithing. But we taught them the principle of tithing!!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 05:10AM by upsidedown.

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Posted by: sayhitokolob4me ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 07:14AM

Shameful that TSCC will actually gladly take 10% of the income of these people who can least afford it. Oh, that's right, they can't afford 'not' to pay their tithing.

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Posted by: Suckafoo ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 08:24AM

Episode 320 Mormon Stories free in iTunes. Discusses church growth in Africa, retention etc. Fascinating for anyone who wants to listen to it.

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Posted by: Stray Mutt ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 08:26AM

...maintaining the image that the church is growing so 1st world members will keep paying tithing.

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Posted by: lapsed ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 10:40AM

Holland finally read the script to Book of Mormon, The Musical and thought "WOW, if we could convert "a war lord who shoots people in the face...what's so scary about that?" that would be fodder for The Ensign and church talks for many years!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHEqCXY2B-w

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Posted by: spanner ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:36PM

Hopefully, at worst, the African experience will mirror the Maori one.

Using the church as a stepping stone upwards. One generation get snagged, but replace tribal and often adverse superstitions with MacCrazy.

The next generation get educated, get the internet, and realize the crazy is so crazy they drop superstition altogether. FREEDOM

Given the current environment, some religion will swoop in - with islam or catholics, they could be stuck for generations.

We have to keep the truth out there, in the right language if needed, for when the kids get on the internet.

With education and the internet, the truth will get through.

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 03:00PM

Yippee! Can't wait for them to introduce dress standards and lean on them to wear garments instead of going with the loincloth. Yes, they will blend right in once they remove all but one piercing in the ear (for women). And have all those tattoos taken off. Maybe the church will offer laser removal for free--while they starve to death in line to have their appearance corrected.

It's obvious that the LDS, Inc. corporation is after the numbers so they can continue to call themselves fast-growing. They also need to replace lost tithing from the Great Western Apostasy, so they will need to buy the mines and they will need to call African members to work in the mines for almost nothing.

It's a strategic growth plan for corporate exploitation of a 3rd world country--maybe they can use Mitt Romney's experience at economic plundering and they can call him to a position over African expansion (once he bombs as a presidential hopeful).

Anagrammy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 03:00PM by anagrammy.

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 03:43PM

My niece went to Africa for 6 months. It had something to do with a school project. She was glad to be home, and said she would never ever go back.
After hearing her describe conditions there, hell would freeze over before I let one of my kids go there for 2 years. Especially with the church. I've heard too many missionary stories of not having life essentials and health care. Africa could be a hot bed that magnifies these problems.

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Posted by: alex71ut ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 04:45PM

Here is my "proposal" on how LDS inc. can manufacture 240K baptisms per annum and get away with it for decades. Its precisely why I consider all their numbers suspect because they don't have good accounting & independent verification standards. This whole thing could be done while leaving the supermajority of the Q12 completely in the dark on what's going on and all of the rest of the GAs in the dark too.

1. Designate 16 remote regions of approx. 10M people each in 3rd world countries as candidates for the Baptism Manufacturing program. Spread these regions out to be exactly 4 per Area in 4 such Areas whose Area Presidencies all report to the same Apostle.
2. Call 8 Area Authorities (2 for each of these 4 areas) who are men with almost no ties to anyone in the heart of Mormondom. The ideal candidates would be men who have some education, literate, never travel, and who have bills to pay. None of them will know about each other except on the general list of Area Authorities. Due to the high cost of travel and visa difficulties these Area Authorities won't ever do any traveling for conferences.
3. Have all the official calls/training and coordination for these 8 AAs done by one Seventy (an old man 1Q'er in his 60s) based out of Salt Lake who only travels in to do the initial calls of AAs + very rare training onsite during their years of service with most being done remote via telephone. If any of the Area Presidencies or Mission Presidents or others have questions on the special assignments of these AAs they're directed to this one Seventy who in turn redirects hard questions to the supervisory Apostle.
4. Keep these "remote" regions "remote". This means that the MPs are privately told by the Area Authorities to stay out. Any member who moves in is told to do home schooling for church in coordination under the Seventy assigned to train these 8 AAs.
5. Each of these 8 AAs is trained and supervised to hire CES coordinators to serve in these remote regions. On average they have approx 25 serving under each AA. These 200 CES coordinators are hired from the ranks of poor members in those countries with no ties to anyone LDS in the main countries. Once they're hired their only real contact with the church will be via the AAs. These 200 are called to be District Presidents over districts in the remote regions and commissioned to organize branches, setup institute classes, and to baptize/confirm new members. Due to all the remoteness the CES coordinators (District Presidents) do all the functions all on their own without any direct supervision of any sort.
6. Every month the 200 CES coordinators get a modest bonus for each new Institute student signed up who is a recent convert within the past 30 days. That's the secret to manufacturing baptisms.
7. All the training will be geared towards producing this result. If a CES coordinator gets too greedy you threaten them with an audit & visit to their District & branches' conferences to meet all those members. If a CES coordinator is honest then you sideline them for being unproductive. What you do is setup a target of approx. 100/month per District and these numbers aggregated upward are easy to be considered plausible. And you can be sure that plenty of these 200 minions (usually poor 3rd worlders who are the only member of their family and converts themselves) will figure out that its a scam but play along to get some gravy train money. Of course all their documents will have to be notarized, declarations under penalty of perjury, etc. so that if any whistleblowing attempts are tried then they'll be exposed as being frauds. And any problems/troubleshooting will never be done directly by the GAs. That's what the AA's are for ... to do the dirty work.

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Posted by: alex71ut ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 04:50PM

I'm suggesting they could setup a system where a bunch of people living away from the heart of Mormondom can get small modest bonuses of 1K/month (that are a lot of money in their lands) by manufacturing membership records and paperwork for the church out of thin air. And they could set it up in a way that nobody would easily be able to figure out exactly what's going on. The actual records could get "lost" by the church setting up some bogus accountability system that is anything but accountable and insures that the records all get "lost" (except for the summary reports with the numbers, not names) in the long run.

"Oh my .... how were we supposed to know that the storage unit in Zimbabwe would throw away all those sacred boxes containing all those church membership records".

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Posted by: Anonymous User ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 05:29PM

Didn't the Church put a hold on African baptisms?

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 07:17PM

I only have experience in DR Congo, not in any other African country, but I have to admit that the missionaries there baptize like crazy, but you also have to remember that all you have to do is talk religion and they will want to join your church. Joseph Smith vision story? No problem--they love stories of people seeing visions. They have visions all the time. Book of Mormon? BoM is great, because you're talking essentially about magic and gold, both insanely important there. Garments? For them that make it to the temple (it's quite rare, but now the Mormons have announced a temple in Kinshasa), the idea of protective and magical underwear is great. They buy into all of it, and it's easy to convert. No one thinks they have to pay a great deal in tithing because after all, it's mostly 10% of nothing. Even those with money are asked for so much more in the other Congolese churches. The pastors rely solely on money derived from giving blessings, and actually hawk blessings at $5, $10, $20, etc., the more money bringing the greater blessing.

And no, the missionaries never inform people about the priesthood ban. No one knows about that. I doubt even the missionaries know that, since almost every last one of them is from one of the two Congos or from places like Cameroon. The only white missionaries in Congo are just six to eight old couples. They won't send white boys there because it's dangerous and icky, and the reserve that for the Africans.

(Speaking of icky, where's Ikki these days?)

It would seem that all the members believe in sorcery, too. I had to drive the RS president somewhere once, and she was talking the whole way about the problems with sorcery among the church members. The guy who did odd jobs for me and washed my car weekly also sincerely believed in sorcery, and he became the bishop of the Kasa Vubu ward. When someone needs a bit of magic done, like to help find their keys (for them with doors) or to get their bicycle returned (for them with bikes), they pay a sorcerer for a "fetish" or spell. I'm talking about church members here.

In the end, the attention span of the average Congolese is no greater than the average person anywhere. When they hear a better story they pursue a better church. I think many left for the music alone. The normal Christian church in Congo has guitars, keyboards, and professional-sounding singing groups with gaudy clothes. The Mormons use a player organ, a sort of grand-looking electronic pianola with the hymns pre-programmed. They don't get to get up and dance and blow pea whistles. Instead, they all fall asleep on the benches in the stifling heat of a closed building, their cell phones charging from whatever free outlets that they've found.

The bright side is that they dress well. Even the poorest men have slacks, a white shirt, and tie. If they clean and iron anything during the week, it's their church clothes. Like in most 3rd World countries, they feel a need to put their best foot forward when out in public. They baptize so many there, with 20-30 baptisms per month in any ward, that even with fairly low retention they always have members a-plenty. I never heard stories about putting a hold on the number baptized, though. But as I indicated above, teaching people there is like the proverbial shooting fish in a barrel. No one is well-schooled and few have access to the Internet. Few ex-Mormon resources are available in French, anyway. I'm sure that the church uses them to beef up their numbers, and they get most of their money from real estate development, anyway. So why not do what you can to convert as many Africans as you can? It gives people a false sense of real growth.

@Mia: Africa is the world's largest continent, and there are wonderful countries there where your niece would have gladly stayed, possibly not wanting to return home from. Unfortunately, there are more of the bad African countries than the good ones. I'm just saying that Africa is really diverse in the sense that Europe is diverse. You can't go to Albania, for instance, and then assume that Europe is a crappy place.

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Posted by: rodolfo ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 08:09PM

These are the sorts of intangible dynamics that truly illuminate the true nature of the church growth in sub-Saharan Africa. I assume you could ask any 20 random members 20 questions about the key doctrines and key points of faithful mormon history and the majority would have no clue.

The truth is this "growth" is probably useless as a true bulwark in the ship of mormonism, and like everything else they lie about, will eventually cause more problems and undermine the church in the end.

This will be "The Book of Mormon" musical IRL.

In contrast, when comparing your report to the church performance in relatively modern and internet-connected South Africa you get this (from Cumorah.com)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in South Africa
Official LDS Statistics
LDS Members: 45981
Missions: 3
Temples: 1
Stakes: 10
Districts: 1
Wards: 65
Branches: 65
Total Congregations: 130

Derived LDS Statistics
Approx. Active Members: 18392
Percentage of Members Attending Church Weekly: 40%
Average members per congregation: 353
Average active members per congregation: 141
LDS, as percent of population: 0.1067%
Active LDS, as percent of population: 0.0427%
LDS, as percentage of churchgoers: 0.076%
National population per LDS congregation: 331186

I would venture that there are no more than 5-6000 "core" members in the whole country. A dismal performance by any measure.

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Posted by: balaamsass ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 08:47PM

I spent time in several african countries and the magic connection and white people mystique will win the day. I had people follow me in markets to see what I was buying and get a lot of the same stufF

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