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Posted by: ihavequestions ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:03AM

For the original thread go here
http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,423673

I just wanted to thank everybody for replying! I was overwhelmed and touched by the genuine and sincere responses that I read. Several of your stories were heartbreaking, yet awe-inspiring and hopeful. Just as a follow-up to some of the questions/advice that were asked: I wanted to say that my husband and I have had many conversations about Mormonism over the last few months. He was always supportive (since he knew what it was like to hold strongly to the belief system) but understandably frustrated. We went through and read several sections on Mormonthink and discussed our thoughts.

I know this may sound silly, but the reason I stayed in the church is because the very happiest I’ve ever been in my life was when I was doing everything “right.” After suffering from untreated post-partum depression for a year and a half, being happy sounded really awesome. So that’s the direction I’m going in now, but I’m still looking for answers. I’m a science teacher (Earth Science and Geography) so there are a fair few things that have always bothered me. Rest assured that I will continue to seek answers, the difference being that now I know it’s okay to have questions.

One more question: To those who left the Church but their spouses stayed, were there any trust issues stemming from you leaving? Like I said before, I love my husband dearly but I feel betrayed because I was blindsided by him leaving. Trust is very important. I know he didn’t do anything wrong and he wasn’t trying to hurt me in any way, but it was a result and now I’m wary (especially since I don’t understand him as much).

Thanks again everybody!

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 02:28AM

It might help you to consider that it's not your husband's fault "the church isn't true" (assuming it isn't, which you can just use as a "provisional hypothesis" for now; as you'll discover, I'm pretty good at science even though I'm a former English teacher).

As for "understanding him," you can consider that a "challenge" because my experience is Mormons are horrible at intimacy. I recall a criticism I just read about Mitt Romney by someone who worked with him and liked him, but admitted he didn't really know who the guy was...

So many Mormons are really just "masks" to me (and I'm doing some thinking and growing as I write this).

You can pick out who the "grown-ups" here are and follow their example, modifying them to your new self...

And so long as you don't "defend the faith," you'll find answers to your questions that are far more in-depth and illuminating than what the church offers...

And I promise, that's not Satan that's making me say these things...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 02:30AM by SL Cabbie.

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Posted by: saviorself ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 11:10AM

I have been intermittently visiting this RFM web site for over 13 years. A fairly common topic of discussion is the problems that arise in a marriage when one spouse learns new information that convinces him/her that the Mormon Church is not true. The reaction of the other True Believing Mormon (TBM) spouse is inevitably highly negative. A possible response, but one that is never heard, is “that’s wonderful that you have an inquiring mind and are constantly seeking new information and I am very interested in hearing what you have learned.”

Instead the actual reaction of the TBM is (1) to go into defensive mode, (2) be angry and disappointed that the other person had the audacity to go looking for new information, (3) criticize the person for daring to change their mind, (4) feel like their eternal happiness in the Celestial Kingdom has been forever lost, and (5) consider the possibility of getting a divorce. This may not describe your opinion, but it is certainly typical of what we often see here on RFM.

The underlying assumption when two TBMs get married seems to be that their religious outlook will be frozen-in-time and can never change. Such an attitude is, in other words, “my mind is already made up – don’t confuse me with new facts.” When one spouse learns new information that changes their viewpoint, the other spouse tends to look at that as an almost unforgivable sin.

We live in “The Golden Age of Information.” The Internet has facilitated the ease of access to information in a way that could not have been imagined in our wildest dreams twenty years ago. However not everybody thinks that is a good thing.

My TBM sister, who was born and raised in the Church, strongly believes that she had all the religious information that she will ever need back in 1965 when she was 20 years old. She practices “willful ignorance” and totally closes her mind to the idea of learning anything new about religion.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Willful_ignorance

IMO when one spouse is willing to be open-minded and finds important new information about the Mormon religion, it should not be viewed as a violation of trust. On the contrary, it is an admirable human characteristic to realize that in this new age of information a person might learn something important that they did not already know at age 20. The expectation that people will freeze their world view at age 20 and not ever learn anything new is unrealistic.

So Ms. Ihavequestions, my question to you is this -- is that the way that you want your husband to be? If you have the same attitude as my TBM sister then I fear that your future in a happy marriage is at risk.

I will finish this post by showing you an actual example of what I am talking about in the way of “new information.”

--------------------------

Here is the opening of an address given at LDS General Conference in April, 1975:

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1975/04/the-book-of-mormon-is-the-word-of-god

Sermon given in General Conference, April 1975

The Book of Mormon Is the Word of God by
Ezra Taft Benson, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

I speak to you today on a most vital subject. As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “we believe … the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” (A of F 1:8.) God has so declared it, so have its writers, so have its witnesses, and so do all those who have read it and received a personal revelation from God as to its truthfulness.

In section 20 of the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord says that he gave Joseph Smith “power from on high … to translate the Book of Mormon; Which contains … the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ … ; Which was given by inspiration.” (D&C 20:8–10.)

Nephi, one of the prophet-writers of the Book of Mormon, testifies that the book contains “the words of Christ” (2 Ne. 33:10), and Moroni, the last writer in the book, testifies that “these things are true.” (Moro. 7:35.)

--------------------------

The following is some more recent information about the Book of Mormon:

The Book of Mormon is the cornerstone of the Mormon Church. The BoM describes events that allegedly happened about two thousand years ago. Archaeology is a branch of science whose purpose is to study ancient history. Encarta (online dictionary) defines it as “the scientific study of ancient cultures through the examination of their material remains such as buildings, graves, tools, and other artifacts usually dug up from the ground.”

The world's foremost authority on archaeology is the Smithsonian Institution. A few years ago, some LDS believers circulated a false story claiming that the Smithsonian was using the Book of Mormon as a guide book. The Smithsonian acted to refute that misconception by publicly issuing the following statement:

STATEMENT REGARDING THE BOOK OF MORMON

1. The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book.

2. The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern. central, and northeastern Asia. Archeological evidence indicates that the ancestors of the present Indians came into the New World - probably over a land bridge known to have existed in the Bering Strait region during the last Ice Age - in a continuing series of small migrations beginning from about 25,000 to 30,000 years ago.

3. Present evidence indicates that the first people to reach this continent from the East were the Norsemen who briefly visited the northeastern part of North America around A.D. 1000 and then settled in Greenland. There is nothing to show that they reached Mexico or Central America.

4. One of the main lines of evidence supporting the scientific finding that contacts with Old World civilizations if indeed they occurred at all, were of very little significance for the development of American Indian civilizations, is the fact that none of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog) occurred in the New World in pre-Columbian times. American Indians had no wheat, barley oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, camels before 1492. (Camels and horses were in the Americas, along with the bison, mammoth, and mastodon, but all these animals became extinct around 10,000 B.C. at the time when the early big game hunters spread across the Americas.)

5. Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Native copper was worked in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.

6. There is a possibility that the spread of cultural traits across the Pacific to Mesoamerica and the northwestern coast of South America began several hundred years before the Christian era. However, any such inter-hemispheric contacts appear to have been the results of accidental voyages originating in eastern and southern Asia. It is by no means certain that even such contacts occurred; certainly there were no contacts with the ancient Egyptians, Hebrews, or other peoples of Western Asian and the Near East.

7. No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archeological remains in Mexico and archeological remains in Egypt.

8. Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines, and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 05:51PM by saviorself.

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Posted by: Owl ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 11:15AM

The trust issue would be a hurdle, but think of it like this... Imagine that you and your husband are both co-workers working for the same brilliant, charismatic boss. Your husband has just discovered that the boss has been embezzling, lying... doing many unethical things to increase business. However, you haven't yet seen this side of the boss, you still think he's a wonderful person. Your husband is so disgusted he wants to quit. You don't believe that this boss is capable of such behavior. Your husband is trying to help you see the true character of the boss.

Your husband isn't to blame for discovering what he discovered. He's a good person for seeing wrongdoing and then reacting to it the way a mentally healthy person should. I would trust a person like this.

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Posted by: CL2 ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 11:23AM

that the believing spouse would say, "I would have preferred you cheated." Having been cheated on extensively--no you wouldn't.

You have a good man. They are few and far between. Look for the good in him. Like others have said it isn't his fault that the LDS church lied.

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Posted by: onendagus ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 11:29AM

Yes. My DW worried what my new worldview meant to our marriage, our family and the kids future. Was I rethinking everything? Did I have any morals left? They are valid questions because the church has conditioned us to fear the worst if we leave it. We left at almost the same time so our experience is a little different, but for us, three years out of it, our marriage and commitment level is much better. We are happier now than ever. Stripping the church away from our lives let us examine just what kind of people we really are. Chances are, if he was a good man before, he will be an even better man now. That is our experience.

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Posted by: rodolfo ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 11:33AM

After all, he has just made a terrifying and exhausting journey where he had to put his most important and cherished world-view under intense scrutiny. Unfortunately it did not stand up to the test, and your husband, faced with the potential loss of his family, friends and social environment, chose to honor his integrity rather than live a lie.

In the face of incredible pressure, your husband chose truth and honesty -- ironically personifying Samuel the Lamanite in a very real way.

Would you prefer that he emulate the church's example by lying, dissembling and obfuscating the truth and only standing up for anything when it was in his own political or public relations interests to do so?

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Posted by: bezoar ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 11:37AM

To put things in a bit of perspective, remember that people always change over time. And for a long-term relationship to work you need to be able to adapt to that change.

I'm definitely not the same person I was in my 20s or 30s. (Thank God! I don't think I could stand the little bastard I used to be when I was younger.)

Your husband has realized that the religion he was raised in no longer works for him. Only you can decide if that kind of change is something you can deal with, or if it's a deal breaker for you.

I totally understand you feel betrayed by his change in religious feelings. And I'm sure you realize he didn't do this solely to piss you off. I guess my point is that you are going to change over time too, and some of those changes might take your husband by surprise as well. Maybe you need to take a look at what you value in your relationship with your husband, and decide where religion fits into that list. I'm sure we can all tell you lots of stories of mormon women married to good, decent nonmembers, who divorced their husbands and ended up with abusive, violent, controling mormon husbands.

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Posted by: anonymous1 ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 11:43AM

Yes, trust is an issue. When I first told her I was doubting the church, she thought it was just going to be a passing thing. As I studied more and more and became more and more atheistic, she started to get really concerned, thinking that maybe she never knew me after all.

In reality, I was the same guy, same approaches, same everything. The only thing that was different was that now I had different information at my fingertips. I talked to her about this, which may have made things worse, because then she looked back and recognized what she thought were all the "warning signs." For instance, she said she should have known that because I never remembered believing in Santa Claus, I would have turned out to be one of those analytical types who is at risk of losing confidence in faith. That sort of thing.

She became a lot more suspicious about me after that. She seemed to do a lot more probing, trying to figure out if I was cheating, or if I had a really dark side that she'd never seen before. I wasn't/didn't, so she was disappointed on all fronts.

But she still can't get over the suspicion, because there's still the stuff about the church that she doesn't discuss with me. She has said that that's one side of my life that she doesn't want to have anything to do with, and she seems to be aware that this approach is directly causing her not to have a full understanding of me. She is keeping herself from this intimacy, and she is sad about it. However, this "side" of me freaks her out more, it seems, so she'll continue keeping that wall up, most likely. As long as that wall is up, there will probably be trust issues. I've tried to tear it down, but it seems to do more harm than good. She is fully aware that I have stopped trying to tear it down for her sake, and has told me that she thinks I'm just expecting her to be one of those spouses that eventually gets "won over" in leaving the church due to love and patience. I reassured her that I intend to show love and patience regardless of whether or not she leaves the church, but if any time she ever wants to come around the wall, I'm willing to talk about anything.

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Posted by: freebird ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 12:00PM

How I discovered that the LDS church was not what it claimed to be was through 6 months of gradual research. I MADE ONE VERY BIG MISTAKE!! I did it without my wife's knowledge. I excluded her for the first time in my life in an activity that should have involved her or at the very least,I should have informed her of what I was doing. That was WRONG and I have since apoligized and have ask her to forgive me, which she has! That caused some trust issues that took awhile to resolve in the beginning. I excluded her because I was afraid of the reaction I would get if I told her what I was doing, but that is not a good excuse even though my fears would be validated by the way she reacted when she eventually found out. Today we are both out and couldnt be happier! Your husband probably hasnt become someone that you just cant love or except just because he changed the way he believes concerning the church or about God for that matter! You know, when a person realizes that what they have been taught for so many years, is a lie or deception it is hard to believe or place your trust in anything that even resembles religion or God. Generally that person gets angry and jaded with it all. maybe that is where he is at right now. I say, love the man you married, he hasnt gone anywhere, like SusieQ says, he just changed his mind about what he believes and he is entitled to that right without anyone's permission. Good luck to you dear, and may I just say, God bless you and your family in this difficult transitional time of your lives!

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Posted by: Mia ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 12:20PM

"Doing every thing Right"
That phrase is interesting to me. First of all, I don't think i've ever met anyone who is doing everything right. People slip, fall, and make mistakes all the time. It's not possible to do everything right all of the time.

It would seem to me, in order to attempt to do everything right it would be an extremely rigid existence.
The big question is who is determining what is "right" for you? Is it you? Or an outside source?

If it's an outside source,Do they really know what's right for you? How do they know? Did they go Over your life's circumstances with you and say these are YOUR rules?
Are they telling you the truth? Are they making up rules of rightness just to see if you'll follow? Do they even know you? How can every thing you do that's right, be right for everyone else?

Thh point is we are all different. We have different needs, wants, hopes and dreams. If someone besides you is determining what is right for you, you probably will not be happy in the long run.

For me, finding what is right is done by trial and error. I weigh it, study it, try a few things. Then I decide what works for me. Nobody can do this for me. There is no exact right way to go through life. If you think everything you do is "right", you may want to consider some examination of that belief. Your "rightness" may be driving people out of your life that you would really rather have there.

Just some thoughts about doing everything "right".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 12:23PM by Mia.

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Posted by: Ihavequestions ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 04:39PM

Wow there are so many things I hadn't thought of before. Thanks everybody for the food for thought. I guess he hasn't really changed and even seems happier. That right there should give me hope for our future. Upon reflection I think that some of my trust issues are because my self esteem is so low.I guess I thought that he would have no reason to stay with me.

He pressured me a lot at the beginning to read everything because he wanted me to find answers to my own questions. I am still researching, but going at my own pace. If I leave I want it to be on my own terms, conversely if I stay it's because I want to not because I'm afraid.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 05:25PM

Unlike the faithful who will warn you off sites like this one...

We wish you well...

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Posted by: kimball ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 06:12PM

It sounds like you're taking a great approach to it all. I think you're going to be just fine.

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Posted by: Can't Resist ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 05:02PM

"Upon reflection I think that some of my trust issues are because my self esteem is so low.I guess I thought that he would have no reason to stay with me."

Where did this idea of him leaving because of change in religion come from? Is it possible it came from the church?

Is it possible that somewhere inside you, you suspect that your husband is on to something? Are you struggling with the reality and mechanics of actually leaving? Is it possible that that is causing low self esteem?

Because, your statement about doing it on your own terms is actually very empowered. Good for you...Go with your gut, girl.

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Posted by: bc ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 05:42PM

It is not strange that you feel a loss of trust. For one, he made a mistake in pressuring you. It sounds like he has backed off which is important for a number of reasons.

It is not unusual to worry that since something that big has changed, what other impacts will it have on the relatioship? .

Take your time.

You mention that you feel it difficult to trust him because you don't feel like you still know him. So there is a great opportunity to re-get to know him. That would be a great place to focus.

Being happy doing everything right is an interesting comment. It makes sense where you mention a low self esteem. It sounds like it was a point in your life that you felt "good enough" and thus the reason for beign happy. One challenge is that the bar for doing "everything right" in the Mormon church is set so high that it is difficult to do that long term, it is a short term fix. Over the long term you end up feeling guilty and like you are coming up short.

There are two possible long term fixes for feeling good enough on your path to happiness:

1) If you stay in the Mormon church adjust your view so that you think of it as Jesus accepts you for who you are and that he loves you as is and that you are good enough as is. There is plenty of doctrine within the LDS church to support this way of thinking - a focus on the grace of God. Get some material by Kenneth Cope, Brad Wilcox, or the like that talks about this subjec to aid you in resetting your thinking. Unfortunately there there are many things in the LDS culture that subverts this type of approach, but it can be done.

2) Leaving the church can also be a path for feeling good enough. For me, becoming an atheist was very freeing in this regard because I don't feel like there is someone up above judging me on whether I am good enough. I've found it much easier to just accept myself as just me. This would be a journey for you, but it can work.

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Posted by: En Sabah Nur ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 05:56PM

My wife used to feel betrayed by my disaffiliation with the church; she said that I had broken our temple vows and leaving the church was akin to adultery. I lost a great deal of her respect and trust for a few months. From my perspective, though, I was angry and indignant that she refused to consider where I was coming from and would not listen to why I could not associate myself with Mormonism any longer.

Things have calmed down considerably between us, and we're enjoying a very good time in our marriage. She now understands that I have very legitimate problems with the history and certain doctrines of the church. She has agreed that we will not teach our children that Joseph Smith was a good man; they will know of his deceptions, his superstitious use of folk magic and his adulterous affairs with underage girls and married women, among other things. They will know about Brigham Young and blood atonement, of the throats that were slashed and genitals removed with his tacit approval. On the other hand, we will all go to church a couple times a month. We will listen to lessons and sing songs a read scripture. We will then discuss what we have learned openly and honestly. Our children will also grow up knowing that there is nothing immoral about homosexuality.

I regard to my wife, I have come to understand that she has a very different relationship with the church than I ever did. She hates reading scriptures, she hates Sunday School and Relief Society, but she enjoys singing and hanging out with friends in a wholesome environment. I was always very studious when it came to the gospel, loved discussing it and loved teaching it, until I read a little too much and studied myself right out of the religion. I HATED the Mormon culture, so it was odd for me to realize that my wife actually liked it.

I hope that this helps. My wife respects my right to believe as I may and has even told me she believes that I came to my disbelief with full integrity. I respect her choice to remain in the church for now, for the reasons she's given. The reciprocation of respect has been wonderful for us.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 06:01PM by homo sapiens maximus.

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Posted by: SusieQ#1 ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 11:12PM

I think there are always trust issues on some level at some point in any relationship marriage or otherwise. It just goes with the territory as we are complicated human beings. Simple in some ways, and complicated in others. Sometimes we get confused and sometimes we find clarity. Those two extremes can cause some trust issues with a partner.

What is it they say --- trust but verify.

Wait and watch. Set priorities. Build on what you have and what and who you are at the time, understanding that over the decades we all change. Sometimes a lot.

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Posted by: larry john ( )
Date: February 22, 2012 11:42PM

I converted my wife to mormonism 10 years ago.
I also at rock bottem, lived defacto and was excomunincated.
The blessing of the lord still leading me to a good wife
I never stopped her having the discussions and she was baptised. Then a few years later while over seas, I was approved
re-baptism, then suddenly she getting her visa finally, came back to australia, re-inteviewed for re-baptism. But it was cancelled, and I was even terminated from attending church and that was 7 years ago... I swore never to go back. I was terminated because of gossip against me, because I spoke out against racist mormons that pertitioned during a political white australia govemenent, that had my midddle eastern wife deported.. I was furious, threw away my filthy rags of rightousness and entered sin like never before, even had a child out of wedlock overseas.

My wife finding all this out, forgave me...the church at first before knowing this advocated I should marry the mother of my child and raize it together considering she even accepted the church and wanted to be right with god. Because my wife forgave me I had no excuse for devoice tho was seperated since that day terminated from the church 7 years ago, it was time for devoice.
But the revelation by the church contradicted itself now saying I should not marry the mother of my child but stick with my wife and return to church. Yet they apologise not for the cruel blow they gave me, robbing my self esteem for 7 years, but I chose to go back with my wife to save the marrige..

I can only attend sacrament. I am considered an apostate because I told people about the racist in the church that attacked my family to life threatening and had her deported. The church wanted to sweep it under the carpet. I was denied rebaptism because of speaking out exposing the deception that exist in the church..

I do not believe the church is true but I believe in trying to save my marrige. If it fails I should marry the mother of my child tho her morals is low considering she knew I was still married when fell pregnent but wants to repent and be sealed in temple also...

I cant have both woman.. But going to church with my present wife here in australia is the only hope to save the marrige otherise I'm out of here. I miss my daughter overseas and wanted to raize her but my present wife and I tho seperated for 7 years, have been married for 12 years, a milestone...

So I put up with morbib mormonism for the sake of my good moralistic saintly forgiving wife...

I send money over seas for the child despite she not like it and that is agreement if she wants to keep me as husband even tho I dont derseve her, its her call, tho I love her I also love the mother of my child also but I cant have both and I trust my present wife she loves me for rich or poor, health and sickenss, even tho the church and enemies killed our intimacy and we sleep in seperate rooms and make it work tho I fear the sin of mastubation by staying married to her and still be denied hope of re-baptism or celestial kingdom. Tho if I married the other woman I would never take the church seriously but enjoy a chemistry attracted relationship in marrige with her. But the hard way is to stay married to my present wife because she still sees me being with her for eternnity..

I have no testimony of mormonism at all, just a challenge to live its morals not for the church sake but for my wifes sake
to make her happy.

thats it..

larry.

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