How long would you stay married if there was little to no emotional intimacy?

Physical intimacy?

No sexual intimacy?

How do you talk to a grown TBM woman about sex when she has been raised to believe it's wrong her whole life and she can't let go of those teachings?

You need to find out the reasons? She may need some help to begin to think of herself as a sexual being. Usually there are reasons beyond what you think. But if she won't delve deeply into her thoughts about it and how it is affecting you, then there isn't much to the relationship IMO.

But even then, it doesn't sound like much of a marriage. Heck, even I can count on hugs and emotional intimacy from my platonic girlfriends. Have you tried counseling?

If you feel comfortable giving us some particulars (your general age range, how long you've been married, kids, have you ever had emotional intimacy and if so, what changed, etc.) then people will be able to give you more focused advice.

May be finding an LDS therapist in this case may help providing they do not add a list of "do nots" (I would pre-screen). Your wife may have more confidence in an LDS therapist. Also, mormonstories.org has a podcast on "How to Have Better Sex in Your Mormon Marriage". I have not heard this one, but knowing John Dehlin, he will focus on intimacy issues caused by just being affiliated with Mormon teachings and culture including all Mormons (TBM, Correlated, Inactive, ExMo).

Here's the thing. Everyone has a different idea about how important sex is to a relationship. To answer your question honestly may not really help you very much because what's important to me is clearly not your wife's priority.

Frankly, I don't think I'd put up with zero intimacy in a marriage for more than about six months without either A) getting my partner into therapy or B) dipping out. In fact, I was with someone who did have a sexual dysfunction and after begging and pleading with him to get therapy for it ("It won't work!"!) I finally just dipped out. Took about six months.

So it sounds like you have a brainwashing problem. A problem that cannot be solved unless your wife understands and accepts that it's a problem and WHY it's a problem. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.

If you can't get her there, then I'm afraid you're left with dipping out. I would give her fair warning first. "We tried therapy and you couldn't open up and talk to the therapist. You refuse to acknowledge this is a problem. You don't want to solve the problem. Honey, I love you and I always will, but this is not a marriage. We have to meet each other's needs, out of love, or there is no point. If you can't work on this, or won't work on this, and you won't even try, then I will have no choice but to initiate divorce proceedings." And you'd better be prepared to put your money where your mouth is if you're going to threaten divorce. It's very manipulative to throw down an ultimatum and I'm not actually suggesting that you do that, but what I just wrote sure sounds like it. I'm just saying that adults should learn at some point that their decisions have consequences and being married includes giving a damn about your spouse's needs.

Also, that door swings both ways. What does your wife need to feel safe and okay about having sex? What are you not saying/doing? What's her hang up? Does she have pain during sex? Could you give her more foreplay? Is it the foreplay that makes her uncomfortable? Have you asked her what makes her wiggy about it?

Remember, for every complaint you have about her, she probably has three about you. Be sure not to frame this as "YOU have a problem, so YOU need to get help, or else I won't be happy." I'd tell you to step off, even if I knew I was the one with the problem. Frame it like, "We have a problem and I want us to work together to solve it."

Also: Is there any possibility that she might be gay and super repressed about it? Because I know many women who were brainwashed in the same YW program I was and some of us were able to get past the thinking that sex is bad, and dirty, and dangerous and learn to love it anyway. Sometimes I wonder if the women who don't get past that cling to it because they're not really attracted to men in the first place so that gives them an excuse to not put out? I don't know. I can't imagine being so afraid of sex that I won't even have it with my husband. Why would you get married if you know you don't want to do It?

Rowel back Wrote:
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> How long would you stay married if there was
> little to no emotional intimacy?
>
> Physical intimacy?
>
> No sexual intimacy?
>
> How do you talk to a grown TBM woman about sex
> when she has been raised to believe it's wrong her
> whole life and she can't let go of those
> teachings?

This book is just a start. It's still weak but it will help TBMs start on a road of overcoming programming on sex.
http://www.amazon.com/They-Were-Not-Ashamed-Strengthening/dp/1587830345/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329922269&sr=8-1


How much loss of intimacy (both types) you can tolerate is dependent on you.

Personally, I wouldn't stay in a marriage with neither. If you communicate, try counseling and work together for a year or two and it doesn't change or improve, consider that it is time to move on.

but I would have stayed in my marriage without intimacy because I didn't want to be a single mother. My relationship with my gay 'ex' is very complex and he needs me emotionally, but definitely not sexually. More like a mother and son!?!? But I knew I wouldn't handle the fallout very well (and I didn't).

BUT I'm one of those who was a total prude and somehow I made it over to the other side. I wish I could tell you how I did it. There are many things that brought me here--not just one thing.

You know, CL2, that is a very, very good point. If you have kids in the mix, that changes everything. I answered based on my childless adult experience. I might tolerate no intimacy indefinitely if it meant moving with my kids to live in a cardboard box under the freeway instead.

dogzilla Wrote:
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> You know, CL2, that is a very, very good point. If
> you have kids in the mix, that changes everything.
> I answered based on my childless adult experience.
> I might tolerate no intimacy indefinitely if it
> meant moving with my kids to live in a cardboard
> box under the freeway instead.

To stay in a marriage in which you derive no happiness yourself, but stay for the children can/may cause the following issues:

1) your depression leaks into the children's life
2) your lack of courage to stand against LDSinc keeps the children TBM and brainwashed
3) your dysfunctional relationship becomes the standard by which the children unwittingly establish their own marriages
4) your sexual pressures build (more for a man) and cause anger, resentment and even hostility towards everyone in the family, making you the bad guy.


The benefits of staying?
1) you get more time with your children (quantity, not necessarily quality)
2) you are better off financially together than paying for two households
3) you can grow fat and lazy and not care what you look like because you're not getting anything from the relationship anyway. (lol!)

The benefits of leaving?
1) raising your kids on your time your way, giving them a taste of the other side so they can choose life their way.
2) dating in the gentile world, showing potentially what a good relationship is about.
3) your time/life is yours, and no one is there to control you anymore.

I'm sure that's all true (I don't have children); however, I'm also sure that some women are unable to make a living due to lack of training, education, experience, or the ability to find childcare so they can go to work. Like I said, I'll put up with a LOT if my alternative is living in a cardboard box under the freeway. Absent that sort of desperation, I agree with you that it's rarely the most healthy choice to stay together "for the kids." I was one of those kids once and I don't recommend putting one's children in that position.

I was married to a woman who sounds exactly like the woman you are talking about and if my ex had a sister I would swear you were married to my ex's sister. In 31 years of marriage we were intimate perhaps 15 times total. In those 15 times of intimacy we managed to produce 4 amazing kids who I will always love with all my heart. I stayed in this relationship with absolutely no physical affection, no intimacy, and no love because I needed my kids. It was selfish of me to do that and now that I am out and my kids are adults I can see that I did them a disservice. Even though I gave my kids all my love and all the physical affection one parent can possibly give they never saw what it is like to have parents who love each other. They never saw a good example of what a loving relationship looks like. They never saw good examples of how two people who love each other act and work through problems and solve challenges. All they saw were two people who lived together as room mates and who only had those children in common.

My two oldest kids have had multiple marriages with disastrous results. My daughter has been married twice and divorced twice, tried being a lesbian, been beaten by one of her boyfriends, and is now single living alone and lonely. My middle son has been married 8 years to the same gal and I am sure that is because when he was 16 he moved out of our home and into his girlfriends home to live with her and her parents.

Because I don't know your whole situation but it sounds much like mine, I can only tell you what I would do if I had it to do over. Don't stay in a screwed up relationship for any reason. Your happiness is more important than any reason you could have for staying in a screwed up relationship and if you are doing it for your children, don't! Get out of that relationship and find someone you can love and who loves you back. Show your children an example of what a loving relationship looks like rather than staying in one that is screwed up. My ex never got over the feeling that sex was dirty and wrong even after counseling and years of trying to work her problems out. I never cheated on her through all those years but I lived on antidepressants and I cannot say my life was happy in any way other than those few times I was able to get passed my depression of living such a screwed up life with a woman who not only thought sex was dirty and wrong but who did not know how to show physical affection to anyone, not even our children, and have fun with my kids.

I have been married for two years now to an amazing lady who loves me more than I thought it was possible for anyone to love me. It is amazing and at times overwhelming to live this new life with someone who truly loves me. I have not been on antidepressants in about two and a half years and life is simply happy, even when there are challenges. You deserve to be happy and if what you are going through now is anything like what I went through for 31 years you won't be happy until you get out of that relationship and find someone who knows how to love you the way love is supposed to be shared.

I think it depends on several things. If you are satisfied with masturbating for you, and cuddling with your wife, it could work. Sex takes a lot of effort, and some women don't find its worth the mess!

When most couples have sex, it's early in the morning when a woman needs to get ready for the day. Throughout the day, she picks up your dirty socks, washes your clothes, cooks your meals, and doesn't feel sexy about you when it's time to go to bed.

Most men don't complement their wives efforts, or tell them how beautiful they are. It's a thankless job, and she probably feels like your mother because that is the roll Mormon girls are brought up to feel comfortable with.

If you were to separate, you have to wonder if you'd find a better companion, or want to live alone. It's your choice.

Ashley Madison

anon69 Wrote:
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> Ashley Madison


So. very. wrong.

Be honest. If you want sex more than marriage, then leave. Cheating serves no one, not even yourself, in the long run.

The first year really sucks. The second year is bad. After that it becomes a case of nothing is easier than what you are already familiar with. You start to go through longs spells of not remembering what it used to be like before the estrangement.

We did marriage counseling the first year and the counselor astutely pointed out that we can get used to just about anything. She's absolutely right.

I've hung in there "for the kids". I don't know if I did the right thing, and I may never know, but there it is.

We have recently discussed splitting up when the nest is empty. I'd much rather it be mutual than go through an adversarial divorce.

LDS Family Sevices= FAIL.

Why not get treatment from a specialist on sexual intimacy before throwing in the towel? And I mean an expensive one--what could be more important?

One caveat? Do you love her in spite of it all? If genuine love has survived on your side, it's worth the effort. You will quickly see if love is present on her side (words don't matter). If she is willing to make an effort, i.e., do the exercises in touching that will be recommended, then you have your answer--two people with a deep attachment and professional help (and patience over time) have a good chance of making something work out with intimacy.

There are things --factors--women don't talk about and you will never, ever hear brought up. For example "No one could love this ugly body--even I hate it-- the hair, the slime, the blood...ugh." OR for sex in the morning, "I can't stand the engorgement which doesn't go down because I just can't have an orgasm thinking of my to-do list for the day...Yes, I've been faking it for years."

Best of luck to you both and keep us posted! We are here for you!

Anagrammy