I've been struggling with my values for a while now. All the "rules" of society that were in place for my whole life because of the church are now in question and I don't know what standards or values to keep. I've been so sexually repressed, I've been having nightmares. I dreamed that my old YW leader confronted me and asked me what serious sin I committed that caused me to fall from the church. She then called me a slut and insulted my boyfriend before I jumped on her and started beating her. I feel guilty for having desires. I feel guilty whenever I try a sip of alcohol. I can't bring myself to swear even though the words are in my mind and on my tongue. I've tried to move on but it's so hard to do when all of the teachings of the church are so ingrained in my mind. At the same time, I want to try new things but I'm also afraid that I'll act out too much or go completely wild just because I left the church. Is it healthy to act out just because I have all of this freedom? How did you guys cope with it?

Trying on new values for size can involve making some mistakes. The key is to make sure that the consequences of your mistakes do not do lasting damage to yourself nor others.

For instance, many people learning about alcohol will get drunk on occasion. As long as you are not driving, the only person you harm will be yourself, and the damage is temporary (and instructional.)

For sex, you have to think through whatever choices seem reasonable and rational to you. There will be some residual guilt for sure, but as long as you have the courage of your convictions, you will move through the guilt stage (although it may take a few years to do this.) If you make sure that you are using a highly effective method of birth control, are protecting yourself against STDs, and are honest with your partner, the chances are strong that there will be no lasting damage to yourself or others.

The payoff in both cases is that you get to enjoy some adult pleasures in an adult manner.

There is no reason to act out...get drunk, becoming very promiscuous or anything like that. Just do as your gut feeling tells you. If you are religious at all still, then you know you can ask God for forgiveness if you slip up.No need to go thru a bishop to tell all about your sinful self. Freedom doesn't mean doing hurtful things to your body or taking chances. Keep all values you believed in because you thought they are just good ways to live and scrap the ones that are nonsense. Many people in the world have a large number of similar values as Mormons although the LDS think they are the only special ones. Take it slow and soon you will dwarf into the new you.

*whistling* Man, that cult did a serious number on ya. You are right, the programming is still there. Good news is, it gets better, it will go away.

Can't speak for you, but in my experience I had to go into myself and dig deep to find the authentic me. True, I had to wade into a lot of sludge to find me, but I got it in a few short months. Mileage may vary so take your sweet time. I started by buying a can of beer and drank it while watching tv on Sunday. Sad to say at my age I was too old to start alcohol tolerance. Too late for me, I could barely finish the thing. Next, I tackled where my interest lay, history, literature, science and yes even religion in all its ugly glory. I read a lot! I loved coffee as a kid, before we were imprisoned in the cult, and went back to that, experimented a bit to find what I liked.

I challenged every dearly held belief about myself and others. It was hard to process but worth it.

Afraid you'll go "wild"? Why? Do you not trust yourself to know where to draw the line? It's simple learn from the mistakes of others. Apparently sex is a huge issue for you for whatever reason: contracting disease, getting pregnant accidentally, or well being addicted to it. Do you have an addictive nature? If no, then you will not "automatically" be obsessed by sex. And don't just go pick up some random stranger in a bar, worst place to find love.

In the end, as long as what you do does not involved hurting yourself or others, go ahead. Set your own standards. Challenge your beliefs, test it against all known human knowledge. Laugh out long and loud and give no mind to people that shush you up, go to the beach on Sunday, wear your best beach wear, revel in your youth, in your potential in your passion.

Do it for this old fart WHO WASTED A GOOD PORTION OF HIS YOUTH MINDLESSLY SERVING A CULT, will ya?

I can't tell you what values to keep or what to do or not to do, but the important thing to remember is all your decisions will have consequences.

When I left TSCC, I rejected almost every conservative "value" I was brought up with because I concluded it was a stagnant cesspool of hypocrisy, greed, and archaic rules. I always had a rebellious streak and wanted to embrace the "wild woman" ways. I converted to Goddess worshipping paganism and did a complete 180. The only rule I lived (and still pretty much live by) was "An it harm none, do what thou wilt." I pushed my boundries as far as I could, experimented frequently, and had some very interesting experiences, both good and bad. I've seen how both sides lived and I choose to follow my own path. Personally, I think all this nonsense about "morality" is outdated bullsh!t; It's more important to have a strong sense of ethics.

You have to decide where to draw your own lines and boundries. You have to decide what rules you'll follow. I reject the notion that because someone is religious, in a position of authority, or "moral" that makes him or her a good person.
As long as you're honest with yourself and others and understand the meaning of "consenting adult," I think you'll be a good person. Educate yourself before you make choices. Try to do the right thing. :)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/22/2012 08:55AM by Itzpapalotl.

I did some stupid things when I was first out of the cult, but I live by the motto "no regrets" Sometimes its hard, and sometimes I still find myself wallowing in the choices I made, but I ask myself "did I learn from it? Am I a better person now because I learned from my choices?" I always answer yes, and then I very firmly tell myself "no regrets" Yes, its hard, but I don't allow myself to wallow. This life is a learning experience, and if you learn from what you do, good and bad, then its not time lost.

You will find what works for you. The first time I drank to the point of being drunk I was in my own home with good friends, so I had no worries about anything happening to me. Turns out alcohol just makes me sleepy, so I'm not much of a drinker (although I enjoy the occasional glass of wine) The sexual hangups just took time and a very patient partner. Baby steps. I don't like coffee but I enjoy tea with breakfast, but it even took time to drink that guilt free. Overcoming the modesty mandate was easy because growing up I wanted to wear shorts and tank tops like everyone else and never could.

Start with baby steps, and the rest will come easier.

If it is a value that will keep you from causing true harm to another, then it is probably a good one to keep. However, the reason I say true harm, is because you can't count most "offensive" things as truly harmful.

Here is a parallel. I was active in Alcoholics Anonymous for many many years. Upon finally getting stabilized on medication, and discovering that the source of my anxiety came from Mormonism in my cultural background, and living among them, I began approaching the world in a much more rational way. I then had nightmares about drinking and destroying my continuous sobriety after so many years. So, I tried it. I had no problems, other than a distaste for what it did to me, and a distaste for most such drinks (other than fruity 3.2). The bad dreams went away.

Paradox, that LDS-inspired values prevented me from drinking myself to death over LDS-generated pressures.

As you excercise your "values" muscles, you'll find that your programming slowly will melt away. Because you've always had the church there to spoon-feed you your values, you've probably never exercised those muscles before. Believe me, the soreness will fade, and you'll be better off for it. Everyone should go through the excercises of developing their own values.

One of the creators of south park, when asked about Morality, and if rather they considered themselves a conservative or a liberal, answered it this way. I am paraphrasing, so I might not get the quote exactly right. "We hate conservatives, but we also f***ing hate liberals. At the end of the day they are the same person, who wants you to change how you think and act, so that it does not offend them."

I love this thought, because it applies so well to political correctness. Let everyone else believe and act as they want, so long as they let you do the same, and you won't have a problem.

Most of this is going to be up to you. That's both the good and bad thing about it. Here are my two cents--read "not inspired counsel."

Just because we leave the church doesn't mean that we should or need to, necessarily, go out and to everything they say is wrong. I second the comments that the process of life is uneven, and involve missteps.

I think the idea of responsibility is a good way to approach both sex and alcohol. If we can be responsible to our partners, ourselves, and society through our sexual choices then we're probably ok. The technical dodads in the "Strength of the Youth" are not values--they are rules. If there is love and mutual respect in a relationship, then the rules, which are only the business of the partners, can evolve accordingly.

Getting over the hangups and guilt in this area can be difficult, so as mentioned it may take time. And don't be to hard on yourself.

With alcohol, I try to apply a similar principle. I don't think there's anything wrong for those who can drink responsibly and keep up on their jobs, family responsibility, and general health. If it detracts from that in a serious way, it's probably time to get help. I've chosen to stay away from it, because it doesn't add that much for me and I don't want to get to the point where it takes away from more important things.

Your experience may vary. Your life is yours--own it.

Somebody once asked me why I didn't go back to partying when I left the church. The answer is really simple. Addiction sucks.

So what values did I decide to keep when we left? Everyone of them. Admittedly, some of those values or personal beliefs did get me in trouble with the church, such as my belief that God does not require you to be a Priesthood Man to ask His blessings for a sick family member, or the time I got reamed in HighPriest class when I countered a former bishop for claiming that any two people can have a successful marriage if they live the gospel correctly...sorry pal, it takes actual love and she is not a co-worker, or underling.

As a Priesthood leader, I was once counselled to keep my opinion to myself because other people looked up to me for guidance. Living real life between my teen years and reactivated in my thirties helped me to see life as it really is and sometimes that doesn't mesh well with the B/W McCarthyism of the church.

Well at any rate, I still live the 10 commandments, but the Ten commandments of Solon the Greek are better. And the only thing from the temple worth remembering is that my wife does not have to follow me if I do not live right.

I'm newly out at age 26, but I was never active until I was 19. I've found that I've easily fell back into my beliefs I had before I committed myself to the Church.

Strive to be kind and patient with other people. Hippy mindset: "Peace, love, and happiness." If there's a God and an afterlife, I cannot conceive of being punished for striving to be a good, loving person.

Not having every considered myself a member until I was 19, I went through my teenage years without the Church's influence and my mom gave me a lot of freedom. Some will scoff at me, but I actually regret that.

I wasn't chaste. I think I had that "absent daddy syndrome" and so sex had a very emotional component to me - it might not be like that for you, so maybe it'll be healthier for you if you decide to have premarital sex. For me it was extremely damaging and had a lot of long-lasting effects.

I would suggest not doing anything big (crazy drunken nights, sex, drugs, whatever) until you've had time to sort through your feelings and separated what YOU believe from what you've been TOLD to believe.

The Church may be a dirty lying money pit, but I believe they encourage some good values and principles. Take some of that with you, and take some time to wash your hands of the rest.

and evaluate them.

Start with the small things, and look at every angle of the issue.

For example let's take modesty:

Is it evil to wear a sleeveless shirts? [substitute any other thing you are considering wearing]
-As a Mormon, you wouldn't be able to wear garments with a sleeveless shirt. Does that make sleeveless bad? Or are the garments actually the inappropriate item . . . especially in the summer?
-Is sleeveless ACTUALLY provocative?
-Do respectable people wear sleeveless shirts in polite society? (I think I've seen Michelle Obama wear them, so they aren't all THAT scandalous)
-If a guy had sexual thought because of your sleeveless shirt, would you be to blame?
-Are you responsible for someone else's thoughts?
-aren't guys going to have those kinds of thoughts REGARDLESS of what you are wearing?
-Is it reasonable to be able to wear clothing that covers you less if that's more comfortable to you?
-why does someone else have the right to tell you what's appropriate in ALL circumstances, rather than you being able to choose based on the occasion?
-Is this a black and white issue, or might there be occasions where you might appropriately dress differently . . . like althletic events or a formal dance?
-Are the "modesty" restrictions in the church actually about control and making people uncomfortable with their own bodies?

I have to confess here that I still don't wear a sleeveless tops in public because of the deep conditioning my whole life. And I live in Utah. I just don't want to deal with the judgement and I'm actually more comfortable dressing like a Molly. But my girls weren't raised in the church, and they'll put up with the judgement if it means they can be more comfortable.

So find where YOU are comfortable, and realize that it's not black and white, good or bad thing. There is a wide range of acceptable clothing to wear (if you aren't in Utah). Find YOUR comfort zone, and just dress appropriate for the occasion: cover more at work, and things like that. And my personal opinion is that it's a good thing to wear things that flatter you. That's not to say to dress provocatively, but it's a GOOD thing to be proud that you are a woman.

So . . . that was just a long example, but I went through this sort of process for EVERYTHING: Word of Wisdom, shopping on Sundays, and every other rule I could think of.

I had to decide, and am still deciding, what I value. If I value my relationships with others, my job, my new ideas about nature and existence, education, fun, family, etc...I need to act in a way to preserve those things I value.

That's what I'm working on. After leaving Mormonism it's hard to even know WHAT to value, let alone how to best preserve those things you value.

Values ...

1. Treat others as you want to be treated.

2. Be happy.

3. Drink st least one cup of coffee every day - just because you can and it is good for you.

4. Drink wine or beer or bourbon or scotch or rum or... Just because you can.

If you are failing at #2, try a few more of #4 until problem is solved.

(Joking about last statement of course, always drink responsibly.)

Be happy and enjoy life and I always try to treat others as I want to be treated.

Of course, for anything we do, you have to accept the consequences for any actions. If you can do that, have at it, enjoy life.

Itzpapalotl its interesting that you said that because I have turned my attention to those paths as well. In fact when I got married two years ago we went to Vegas and I found a Pagan Priestess to marry us and it was probably the most beautiful wedding I have ever wittnessed and that isn't just because it was our wedding. I find the ancient Pagan attitudes fascinating and I can accept the Goddess much more readily than the gawd of Christianity/Judaism/Islam/Mormonism who is simply a mean vengeful vindictive cruel being that I can't accept any longer under any circumstances. Although whether I completely believe in any God at this point is still out for consideration.

Anyway, the one phrase you stated is the one that I pretty much rule my life by as well. "An it harm none, do what thou wilt." Although I call it living the law of Karma, it means the same thing.

So, liberalbutteffer, what I am saying here is that if you want to drink, go ahead and try it. For me I don't really like alcohol all that much. I love a good mixed drink but I have not developed the taste for beer and the only reason I drink it is because I love a good beer buzz. I have found that a good beer buzz is nice but the buzz from hard liquor just isn't something I enjoy. The way I look at is is that if you live so that you don't harm others in any way, and by this I mean not hurting feelings, not causing loss of any kind, not doing anything intentionally to another that would cause them any type of harm, then do what you want and enjoy life.

I wrote this a while back and although it makes this post way too long I want to share it with you.

Hello, my name is Accountability and I have some things to say. I hope you will listen with an open mind because what I want to say is intended for your benefit.

Throughout time I have been here with you humans working with you and trying to teach you about myself. I have been known by many names such as Karma, Fate, Destiny, Kismet, and many others. My only purpose is to return to each of you that which you have earned. What you receive from me can be either good or bad and it completely depends on you and what you do each moment of your life. Each time you are faced with a decision or a choice, how you choose to act in that moment determines what I will return to you. I am no respecter of persons, I have no favorites, I do not return anything to you that you have not earned. I do not use emotions in my work, and I guess you could say I am much like one of your computers in that I do not have the ability to experience emotions. I simply spend my time returning to each of you that which you have earned by your actions.

I am sure most of you have heard such terms as “Obey the Golden Rule”. What exactly is that “Golden Rule” that has been spoken of by so many over the years? Well, it says that you should treat others as you would like to have them treat you. That is a very good analogy of what I am trying to accomplish here. If each of you would remember this each time you act I think this would be a much different world for all to live in. If each time someone insults another, or teases, or bullies another they would first think about this and realize that they would not want to be treated in that manner perhaps they would stop before they act. The truth of the matter is that whether you want to believe that you will be visited with the exact same that you give out or not, you WILL receive exactly what you give. It may not be in an instant that you receive back what you have given, but rest assured, you WILL receive the same back.

If you give good, you will receive good. If you give bad, you will receive bad. It is as plain and simple as that and there are no variations. If you deceive another for gain, you will lose that which you gained and an equal amount again. So for example if you deceive someone and take from them $10 dollars eventually you will lose that $10 dollars and an additional $10 dollars. Now this may seem like a double return but it is not. You lose the amount you initially deceived to obtain and then you lose that amount again as your return for that act. This is the reason I have received so many negative observations such as, “Karma is a bitch”. Because when I return to you what you have given, if you have given something negative you will return the initial negative and that same amount of negative once again as your return.

I am here talking to you today because I have noticed much discussion about certain acts of a few individuals and my name, Accountability, has been bandied about a time or two. This is what I have to say to you all today. It is not anyone’s responsibility to judge accountability but mine. To you all it would be best if you simply forgive all who wrong you and move forward with your lives because by allowing yourselves to feel those negative emotions, and express them publicly you are earning for yourselves a return by those acts. This is one of the most difficult lessons for humans to learn. At times when you have been wronged you feel justified in expressing your feelings and even demanding retribution for the wrong done to you. That is not your duty and when you do that you are earning a return equal to that which you are demanding. All of you have made mistakes, and when you make an error what do you feel and what do you want? You simply want to be forgiven of your error. You do not want to be told time and time again about your error. You do not want to be reminded of your error by all who have seen your error. You do not want to be judged for your error by your peers. You simply want to be forgiven so that you can move on with your life. Remember, you should always treat others the way you want to be treated. So even though you may feel justified in calling out the person who has wronged you and you feel justified in demanding retribution for that wrong, you must always remember what you would want if you had committed that wrong. None of you is perfect and you all make mistakes. Just remember that to forgive someone when they wrong you is only doing yourself the best good because the more you pursue the person who has wronged you and the more you demand retribution for that wrong, the more you will receive in return for all you are doing and demanding.

Never forget that I am always here. I never rest and I am always present logging everything each of you does and then returning that to you in equal amounts without prejudice but in the exact amount you have earned with your acts. My returns are ALWAYS fair because I am controlled by the Creator of all and I have no other option than to be fair in all my workings.

I leave you with this. If you want to live happy lives, just remember to always act in ways that you believe will give you the very best returns on your actions.

Rules are great for telling people what to do.

The Church made a rule that no member must get a tattoo.

The Church made a rule that no woman have more than one piercing in each ear.

The Church made a rule that men have no piercings.

The Church made a rule that no member can wear flip-flops to meetings.

Those rules IMO have nothing to do with values. Oft times we don't get to make the rules but we do get to choose our own values.

For me a value is something I choose to live and I choose values that are important to me. My # 1 rule, yea a rule :-) is that my values must be that they harm none, including myself.

My values can change as I change and grow. For example I am now a vegetarian but I wasn't 15 years ago. It is my value and not one I would say somebody else needs to accept as their value. Sure I'd like more people to have that as a value but you can't force values thank gawd. Choose values that are important to you, the ones that define you.

For me this wasn't much of an issue-- I was a "dry" Mormon before I converted as a senior in high school. The only "radical" departure from previous habits was--oh heaven forbid--I now drink coffee (in my own home in spite of a TBM husband), occasionally have a glass of wine on business trips or when with non-Mormon family and freinds.

I still believe in being faithful to my husband; I'm trying to guide my kids (who left the church with me) through high school by encouraging them to drink only when they become of legal age and are responsible about it; also encouraging them to put off having sex until they are out of high school and are in some sort of steady relationship and again, are responsible.

I guess I'm an odd combination--my politics are very liberal, but in my personal life and as a parent, I'm still conservative. It feels right for me and my family.

I teach my kids two values, and try to follow the same two values myself.

1. Respect yourself and others.

2. Don't lie to yourself or others.

Now the fun part is deciding what constitutes respect.

What is likely to happen -- in the REAL world, not the one made up by the church -- if I do something? Or if I don't do something? Will it harm me? Will it harm others? Will it make things better or worse? Is it just neutral? How is it working for others in similar situations?

You don't need to make those judgments alone. There's a world of experience around you to draw from. Yes, there's a lot of bad advice, so, when there are conflicting opinions, err on the safe side.

Keep THE GOLDEN RULE - that's the one you will always need and use.