I know this is not an original idea as I have seen variations of it before on the board, but I am seriously thinking about once a month during F&T Sunday traveling to different wards within a 3 hour radius of where I live (to wards where nobody knows me) and getting up and "bearing my testimony" about Jesus (the real Jesus), Savlation, and of God's Grace. I would not say anything negative about TSCC so I don't think they would cut the mic or tap me on the shoulder to sit down nor would I say anything about JS, BOM, or Tommy Monson. I really think some people could be reached.

Do you think this would work and any other subjects I should touch on? I speak in front of crowds for my job so it comes fairly natural to me so I don't think I would get nervous doing this.

Well, this is a hard one. On the one hand, I have been drug to numerous F&T's and would totally relish someone relieving the boredome in this manner. However, I remember when I watched the show the Mormons on PBS, one of the mormon men talked about how on his mission he and his buddy got up in the middle of a catholic mass and bore their testimoney. I thought it was incredibly rude! It is the kind of thing that mormons would feel totally offended by and yet here they were thinking it was just fine to do to another religion. However, at least at an F&T people are supposed to get up and bear some sort of testimony. I think you would be in a morally superiour postition than those guys from the PBS show. I will be interested in hearing what others think about this

Yep, you are the person who was yearning for it since you thought it should be part of Mormonism all along. I think the idea of doing this is great.

Well one difference is that the congregation is invited to bear their testimonies in F&T meeting but they are certai nly not invited to do any such thing at mass. It is an entirely different kind of meeting where the audience, other than giving a set response to prayers, does not speak and is not expected to. However, I do think it would be rude to speak against Mormon beliefs at their own meetings,but it falls very short of interupting a liturgical service to spout off about another church.Wow, I cannot believe mishies would be so classless and clueless.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2010 08:20PM by bona dea.

good point. I think you are right.

Which Jesus? The Gospels Jesus? Or the Christ of Paul?

and against Mormon doctrine.

In my last conversation with my present bishop, who was my HT at the time, I bore him my testimony of Christ, and now I'm considered an apostate.

ExBP, technically, you would be doing a service, but in Mormonism, good is evil.

Instead, why don't you take poinsettas to your old widowed aunts, or visit all your cousins, and let them know you are still alive and happy in the lone-and-dreary world. WWJD? Christ would be happy if you spread around some of His love. Christ probably stays away from Mormon testimony meetings.

Spend the time with your family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2010 08:44PM by forestpal.

I guess it would depend on what you say and how you say it. If you just talked about Christ without criticizing Mormon doctrine, I wouldn't see a problem. You could add some other perspective in a tactful way. That could get some people thinking. However, I wouldn't get up and preach to them about how they are wrong and you are right. You are on their turf and in my mind, that is rude. It would be interesting though

Absolutely, do it. From what I hear there is little talk of Jesus and they claim to be Christian and have Christ's name in their church name. Do it. That way at least people will get a message of substance.

I think one of our goals in recovery is to be respectful of the beliefs of others. Mormons are not and we need to set a good example for them, don't you think?

I don't know if you are kidding or what? What could be more respectful than talking about the Savior who they say they believe in?

Someone did this in my ward, albeit unintentionally. The RS organist was asked to share a little in class and she talked of her love for Jesus (yes, you heard me right) as she broke down and cried. It shook me up greatly. Started a real hunger in me knowing what rang true to my heart and I realized the hunger could not be satisfied there. I recognized it and felt it and from that point on I was troubled by it. Things were never the same for me after that. I'm not saying the Christ element matters to everyone here but for some reason it really mattered to me.

I agree. All are welcome with any beliefs they have. No one holds the corner on that one anymore, and I gain so much from everyone here.

If i were doing what you propose to do, I would also mention knowing the BIBLE (no mention of the B of M) is the word of God and the importance of maintaining a personal relationship with Jesus.

But I don't see a problem with a carefully phrased testimony of Christ. After all, they claim to follow him. I also agree with some of the other posts though; I think you should avoid testifying of another church. Who knows, your testimony of Christ might remind others that the church is much more Smith focused than Christ.

Hm, I completely understand your faith is very important to you. I understand it's changed your life. I understand you are devoted to Jesus. I also understand that in some way, you want to "rescue" these people that are in what you firmly believe to be a cult.

There are just a couple points I'd like to make, and perhaps I have no right to speak. I'm neither Christian, nor have I ever been a Mormon. But I am going to risk it.

My first point is simply that if they are in a Testament meeting, then 99% of what you say is likely to fall on deaf ears. You're probably better off putting your energy into other areas, ex-mormon groups, etc.

My second point is this...how would you feel if a Mormon stood up in YOUR church and gave HIS testamony? I know how I would feel...it's happened. Only it was a Christian who entered a Jewish synagogue and told us all about Jesus, the son of God, and salvation and atonement (completely foreign beliefs to Jews, at least the way they are understood by Christians) It did not go over well. People have a RIGHT to practice whatever faith they choose (within reason, obviously). this is the United States of America. Freedom of religion, freedom to worship is a basic right. It's a right that needs to be respected. And that means they should be able to worship UNinterrupted.

There's a time and a place for everything. I'm sorry, but their religious meeting isn't it.

Holly, you are missing the point. If he was talking about something Mormons don't believe in then I would agree. BUT THEY CLAIM TO BELIEVE IN CHRIST. He is not being disrespectful. It is something that should be talked about in a church that has Christ as the reason they claim to be Christian. It isn't called the church of Joseph Smith.

ExBP was pretty clear he/she (sorry-can't tell-unless BP stands for Branch Prez.)would say nothing against the church. To stand at the pulpit and only talk about Christ would be wonderful.To not mention JS or temples or missionaries etc. etc. would be a red flag for the audience. But someone listening might just need to hear that. I know when I bring up anything about Christ to dh,he acts like I am talking about someone from another planet. Like Kolob. I say go for it. How can it be a bad thing?

So what is the purpose then? I'm sorry, maybe I can't understand because I am not a Christian? But the person who spoke to a bunch of Jews in a synagogue said nothing AGAINST Judaism either. that does not mean it was not OFFENSIVE to hear about someone else's beliefs in MY place of worship. If I wanted to hear about Jesus, I'd go to a Christian church.

So really, what's the purpose of going to a testimony meeting and giving testimony about something that he OBVIOUSLY knows Mormons don't believe...at least not in the same way HE does??? Yes, Mormons claim to believe in Jesus...but they believe DIFFERENT things about Jesus than he does.

If it's to "witness" to them and change their point of view, it's the wrong place and the wrong time.

If it's to get them riled up in some way, that's plain rude, IMHO.

Catholics believe in Jesus and so do Baptists. Would a Baptist appreciate a Catholic going to prayer and giving testimony about THEIR brand of Christianity? I hardly think so.

Is it the OP's hope that the "light of christ" will outshine "the spirit" and lead the poor mormons out of darkness?

Good luck with that!

There's nothing wrong with mormon JuHEEsus. He's just as much a myth as christian JuHEEsus. The problem is with the respective religions. Proving one false does nothing to bolster the other's credibility, particulary when its just as easy to debunk the veracity of both.

The intent, it seems, is to lead the wayward out of one cult and into another. I don't see how that does anyone any favors.

Timothy



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2010 12:04PM by Timothy.

Holly Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what is the purpose then? I'm sorry, maybe I
> can't understand because I am not a Christian? But
> the person who spoke to a bunch of Jews in a
> synagogue said nothing AGAINST Judaism either.
> that does not mean it was not OFFENSIVE to hear
> about someone else's beliefs in MY place of
> worship. If I wanted to hear about Jesus, I'd go
> to a Christian church.
>
> So really, what's the purpose of going to a
> testimony meeting and giving testimony about
> something that he OBVIOUSLY knows Mormons don't
> believe...at least not in the same way HE does???
> Yes, Mormons claim to believe in Jesus...but they
> believe DIFFERENT things about Jesus than he does.
>
>
> If it's to "witness" to them and change their
> point of view, it's the wrong place and the wrong
> time.
>
> If it's to get them riled up in some way, that's
> plain rude, IMHO.
>
> Catholics believe in Jesus and so do Baptists.
> Would a Baptist appreciate a Catholic going to
> prayer and giving testimony about THEIR brand of
> Christianity? I hardly think so

.My point is that if the OP only speaks of Christ and doesn't say anything that the Mormons don't believe, it will just be another testimony and probably won't even be noticed by most. So I don't see the point.Jesus is mentioned and talked about in testimony meeting regularly although he does tend to get overlooked in favor of prophets etc.. It isn't as if speaking of Christ is unheard of. They probably won't even notice unless you do it a way that is contrary to their beliefs. I don't see it as being disrespectful if you don't preach a non Mormon view, but I do think it is a waste of time. I also agree that preaching somethng they don't believe would be rude.If you want to do it, respectfully, fine, but I wouldn't expect much in the way of results. Personally, I don't think I could bring myself to sit through all those testimony meetings.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2010 02:56PM by bona dea.

Not a good comparison. But any Baptist I think can go to a Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopalian, Presbyterian church etc. and not be offended. These are all Protestant churches. It would be offensive to go to a Catholic church and do the same. Aren't Mormons trying to mainstream? Nope, I know, it won't work. But a talk about Jesus being offensive to the Mormons. They aren't Catholic. Heavens sake....so ridiculous.

Another issue is that you would have to go to testimony meeting and sit through all the crying, travelogues, silly stories and screaming kids. I doubt it would be worth it. Personally, I'd rather sleep in, go to brunch, read the paper, see a movie, go to another church or sit home in my bathrobe. Just does not seem worth it to me.In other words, what you would accomplish wouldn't be worth the effort and the boredom of going to the thing and having to endure it .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2010 02:07AM by bona dea.

I think it is very telling that bearing a testimony of Jesus makes mormons uncomfortable. A strong testimony of Christ has caused more than one member grief. Sit in sacrament meeting some time and count the number of times the Savior's name is mentioned. You stated that you thought "some people could be reached" and I agree, but once you open the door to a real relationship with Christ, LDS inc often goes out the window. It will not be warmly received by most, will be embraced by some, but I believe it is fair game. They talk about being Christ centered, You are not being rude or confrontational, just making statements that agree with their stated agenda but stand in sharp contrast to the real core of what mormonism is all about.

This is a sincere question and not intended as sarcasm.

Could you explain the difference between what you propose to do and trolling?

Interacting with people for the sole purpose of getting something out of them or manipulating them in some way is not honourable. Seeking to proselytize in their own place of worship is disrespectful. Doing so covertly is even more so. If they accept you at face value and you act in a way they wouldn't approve or allow if they knew your true intent, I think that is dishonest, no matter what your opinion is of their religious beliefs.

I don’t think Holly is “missing the point” but rather is stating it exactly. Turn it around and see how you’d feel if someone did this in your place of worship. It isn’t just what you say or how you say it but the intent behind your testimony-giving. You would be suspect anyway, I believe, not because you are talking about Jesus and Christians think Mormons don’t do that but because you are unknown in that chapel as well as the fact that you’d come across sounding like a BAC, especially if you expound on “grace” which, true enough, is not often a part of a Mormon SM, at least none that I've ever attended. So, I think you’d be outted as an intruder in their midst and I wouldn’t blame them for being less than impressed with you.

When I was a new member, the missionaries were intense about me giving a testimony. They said it was the next step after baptism and was expected of every member on a regular basis. I had stated clearly prior to baptism that I did not consider JS to have been a prophet and the missionaries told me that was okay (of course, anything is okay to them in order to get a baptism). But even the bishop worked that way, as he gave me a TR even though I clearly stated my stand on JS. I think they all put their faith in the HS to make everything work out. Their thinking was just get me baptized, get me active in the church, get me to the temple, and I would eventually be truly converted. That didn’t work with me as every step further into Mormonism made me more leery.

I don’t have a problem speaking in public but found it difficult to get up in front of the LDS congregation to give a testimony. I’m not given to that even in BAC and other churches I have attended, as I consider my specific beliefs and feelings to be private. I was even more nervous because of being unsure what to say. I knew I couldn’t lie and give the expected lines about knowing the church is true and that JS “is” a prophet. I settled on giving a testimony of God, that I believed He existed and that His Son, Jesus Christ, is our Saviour. I said I believed in the scriptures (meaning Bible, avoiding making any statement about the BoM) and I might have quoted a Bible verse that resonated with me.

It was brief, it was general, it was not exclusively Mormon, or Mormon at all, from deliberate intent on my part. I felt I could only stated what I did actually believe in (I *hated* the fake-it-til-you-make-it approach). Still, the reaction from one of the stake missionaries (who had taught me the new member classes) was “I’m so glad you’ve finally got a testimony of Joseph Smith”. I was like, say what???? He said, “Well, you just gave a testimony of Joseph Smith”. I said, “No, I gave a testimony saying I believe in God, Jesus and the scriptures”. His reply? “Well, that’s the same thing!” (I don't think he meant it literally, as in JS being Jesus or equal to, but that any testimony at all, of anything, confirms that you hold a belief in JS and the CoJCoLDS, as would be expected, I guess, by one's mere presence in that church and the fact of giving testimony in their meeting).

But still, I never gave a testimony again as I really dislike having my words misunderstood. If I could say “I believe that God exists” or “I believe that Jesus is our Saviour” and to some or all Mormons this translates into “I believe in Joseph Smith”, I would rather stay mum. Many hear what they want to hear or what they expect to hear and it’s alarming how far apart a listener’s impression and one’s intention can be.

Another aspect of testimony-bearing is the directive to stick to “pure testimony”, which consists only of these elements - “I believe that...":

*God lives
*Jesus Christ is the Saviour
*Joseph Smith *is* a prophet
*The BoM is the most correct book
*The Church is true.

This was heavily emphasized in the ward I attended (even being the subject of a talk by the MP’s wife on one occasion).

Maybe this was their way of cutting down on the travelogues, life stories, and other non-standard testimony-bearing that occurs. But how boring is it to hear an entire hour of testimonies consisting of the five favoured lines (as listed above). I could find some meaning in the sacrament part of SM (if only to sit in reflection for an hour a week) but never in the F&T Sundays. To me it was time that could have been better spent, either in hearing a good sermon or at least an interesting talk. To an outsider, true enough the testimony-bearing with accompanying tears that occurs in Mormonism is quite strange. However, it is obviously meaningful and spiritually significant to those who believe in it.

Based on my experience, I'd say your testimony-bearing may not be understood in the way you intend. It could serve to cement their own beliefs, not your intended outcome. I also have quite an aversion to cozying up to people just to get something out of them (in this case, appearing to go along with their F&T ritual but with an ulterior motive). Too, it is a strong principle, at least where I come from, that one does not "sheep steal" in this way.

The only way in which I can see that what you propose actually makes sense to you is if you believe that the HS and the "real Jesus" will somehow reach listeners through your "testimony" in some spiritual sense (with the purpose that they end up not Mormon). First, I'd ask why God can't reach them without your help, in some other more open way. Second, I'd ask if the use of a degree of fakery is the best way to go about spreading religious truth as you know it.

Perhaps you can see, without me delineating every element, how and why this type of proselytizing approach would not go over well, starting with it being condescending, disrespectful, and lacking in understanding of your intended audience, as well as dishonest and likely doomed to failure. It's lose-lose all the way around, as I see it.

So, I vote no!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2010 05:11PM by Nightingale.

I don't think "testifying" of your version of Jesus will be offensive...nor will it inspire them. They will simply feel sorry for you.

Once you start going off with non Mormon lingo (which they will pick up on right away if you drop the "grace" or "saved" stuff) they will assume you don't know any better. They will be nice to you but it will be obvious to them that you don't have nearly the amount of "truth" about Jesus that they think they have.

Some there will sniff you out as a proselytizing intrusive sort. Mormons don't take kindly to that even though they do it themselves (it's OK when they do it because they are more "right" you see). So, IMO your message would backfire.

I personally think it is pushy and inappropriate to do what you propose. Please tell me where you go to church and maybe I could go there and tell your congregation just what I think about Jesus- hoping you all would see my version is better. I'm an atheist but I wouldn't say anything "against" your beliefs; I would just set you all straight. (Yes, I'm kidding. I have no desire to spend time in church doing anything.)

I think Molly and Nighty nailed it above.

You will get a much better response from them if you quote Steven Robinson and his book Believing Christ. Robinson is lds. His book is the closest thing an lds member will come to hearing the Good News as it was intended.

I think it is a great idea and went and did just that to an old ward of mine about 8 months ago. We had moved out of the ward and many know that I had left the lds church and was a attending a nondenom Christian Church. I just felt the need to let them all know that I had not left the lds church for a life of sin- but that I loved God and that my faith in Christ was stringer than ever.

Go for it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/26/2010 12:14AM by m3gd.

This topic was posed to Christians on this board. It would be nice if those who choose not to believe in Jesus would respect the thread and who it was directed to.

We know you think it is an effort in futility and that Jesus is a fictional character like Nephi.

I will stay off your threads aimed only at atheists or agnostics.

I agree with you. This was posed to Christians. And any Christian knows that speaking of Christ is not an insult or harmful to any group of people who claim also to speak of Christ as their Savior. I find it telling too, like someone pointed out, that such a testimony of JC would offend Mormons. Hence, Mormons can't take a testimony of Christ. Plain and simple. I don't want to hear this Mormon Jesus crap. You believe in the Jesus of the Bible or you don't.

It's not a case of Mormons being offended by someone talking about Jesus. It's about that someone being condescending, as in he knows the "real" Jesus and they don't. That is definitely offensive. Think for a minute how you would feel if someone told you they know Jesus and you don't and they're there to bring you to the light (especially if they crash your church meeting to do so). That is how many Mormons think of their faith, that they have "more truth" than others and need to share it. How is what the OP proposes and what Christian responders have said any different from how Mormons think of their church vs yours? Two sides of the same coin. Too bad that so many on each side don't see that.

The ones who differentiate the "Mormon Jesus" from the "real Jesus" are not Mormons. Hence, whose "crap" are you referring to?

I think this response just proved the point. It is a pretty tasteless as well as worthless venture (regardless of what/who you are testifying about. Thank you for driving the point home.

Interesting I was soliciting responses from Christians and others start crawling out of the wood-work.

I am always sorry to see posters who self-identify as Christians ramping up the antagonism level here, usually first. There's no injunction here against non-Christians participating in any discussion. Usually the little tags in subject lines (eg, "Christian content", etc) are meant as guides, not rules.

I think that input from all quarters is the best way to get a good overview of a matter. It's great when people take the time to respond to a fellow poster's query, being much better than a resounding silence, I feel.

If the "crawling out of the wood-work" comment was aimed at Dagny and/or elee, how does anything they've posted on this thread generate such a demeaning comment? Surely we can share our opinions, different as they may be, without being likened to an unwelcome creepy-crawlie?

This surprises me (even after 10 yrs of reading such comments from drop-in "Christians" here) coming from one who supposedly wants to attend church meetings not his own for the purposes of revealing the "real" Jesus to the "unsaved" masses.

As I was saying, you don't display much of an understanding of your target audience, and not much sensitivity.

I'd go back to the drawing board.

Believe it or not, other people have experiences with this kind of thing. I was Christian once. I've seen Mormons come visit other Christian venues and vice versa.