I'm in the nursing field and I am currently caring for a Hospice patient in the home. There is a team of round-the-clock Hospice nurses tending to this remarkable 88-year-old woman (artist, writer, widow of a WWII pilot, prominent citizen of the community).

She stopped taking all food and water about 3 days ago.

Tonight, between moans, she became verbal and alert and started exclaiming, "Oh my, oh my, OH MY!"

The other nurse and I jumped up to tend to her and these are the phrases that came out of her mouth over the next 15 minutes:

"Oh MY!" (over and over, as if she were seeing something spectacular).

"I love EVERYONE." (as if she were speaking to a crowd of family gathered to welcome her home).

"I don't know . . . I don't *KNOW* when I'm supposed to die." (as if she were receiving instructions from the other side and didn't know exactly how to carry them out.)

"I feel like I'm splitting in two. I feel like I'm two people."

I have my own opinions about what she was seeing/hearing/feeling. I'm mildly religious, semi-Catholic, and a rabid ex-Mormon. I've read scientific explanations for years on this board about what happens to the brain at death, and I allow for that possibility.

But, I don't know y'all. It sure looked like my patient was trying her hardest to "pass through the veil."

What do you think?

;o)

P.S. We gave her Xanax and she calmed down and went to sleep. But I'm not sure she'll still be there when I go back at 8:00 in the morning.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/2012 11:54AM by shannon.

Hi Shannon. Nice to see you.

When my father was dying (although we didn't know it), he was rubbing his eyes and saying, "I'm going crazy" while looking around the room. He also asked someone in the room (I can't remember who) if he knew "who that was?" standing at the foot of his bed. I'm agnostic now but who knows if it's the brain going through the throes of shutting down or if there really is something on the other side.

Moira

Steve Job's sister says that his last words were, "Oh wow, oh wow, oh wow." Believers can take that as an indication that he was moving into another realm, an afterlife, which amazed him. Fact is, the mind is an amazing thing, and we have only an inkling of what it can do and what really happens when we die. Maybe Steve came to a realization in death of what his contribution to the world really was. Oh wow indeed.

Bottom line, we have NO REAL IDEA of what happens after death, but truly, what does it matter? If we atheists are wrong, and there is life after death, then we'll be pleasantly surprised if we've been good people, or horrified if we've been bad. If we're right, and death is the final dirt nap, then the believers will be pissed, or shocked. I say, be the best person you can be in THIS life, and you can't go wrong.

No, believers won't be pissed if there is no afterlife because they will never know. They won't exist.

I think it's a horrible way to die. One wouldn't treat a dog that way, why a human being?

BTW, please don't interpret this as a criticism of you; I have great repect for people who take care of the sick and the dying.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/2012 02:09AM by rt.

Sick people often have no interst in food. I assume that is the case here.

I didn't look at it that way. Often, you hear old people who don't want to live anymore have starvation as their only option. I thought that was the case here but you're right, it needn't be.

There comes a time when they can't eat anymore, even their body rejects the food.

from one who currently has a mother in hospice.

you can't give food to someone who has no interest in eating.

and tube feeding them is also ineffective since the body has stopped processing it.

This is pretty much how all Alzheimer's patients die, from dehydration until the rest of the body follows suit.

but feel free to comment on Shannon's quality of care.

> but feel free to comment on Shannon's quality of care.

I thought I made clear that my comment wasn't intended that way. But feel free to ignore that.

The going off of food is normal for the last few days before death. The body is shutting down and they are not interested in eating anything, even their favorites: drinks, ice cream, soup etc.

I watched my Dad his last six months. He was able to eat some fresh raspberries I'd bought at the Farmers Market six weeks before he passed.

I can tell you he did NOT want to eat the last week he lived. He just slept all the time and had no interest in food. He would drink a little bit if you could rouse him and that was all.

So the dying are not starved, they refuse the food. No one was cruel here.

Interesting how she is leaving. Some people understand how to go and just take a last breath and leave while others seem to fight it. Your lovely patient seems to be taking it all in like a child observing something wonderful for the first time.

I'm glad she has you there in her life, such as it has been. I appreciated those who looked after my Dad.

I was her primary caregiver.

She was at her home, under hospice care, and the hospice nurse(s) visited her at least twice a day--more if needed.

I had been carefully instructed (by verbal instructions, and by written material prepared specifically for primary caregivers of dying people) on what to expect, the different stages of dying, how to tell what stage she was in, what to do if such-and-such occurred, and so on. One of the things I had been told by the hospice nurses was that dying people often talk out loud to people they knew who had previously died--and my Mom (my aunt's sister) had told me of several members of our family who had gone through the dying process at home and, very near to the time when they entered their final coma, they had audible conversations with other relatives (and a couple of very close friends) who had died previously.

It was about three in the morning, and I knew that my aunt would be entering into her final coma soon. She was almost--but not quite--"there." The physical signs I had been told to look for were unmistakeable, even in the very dim, nightlight-kind-of light I had on in the bedroom. I was sitting right next to my aunt (I could touch her just by extending my hand), and she was seemingly very peacefully "relaxing" into her final dying process.

Suddenly, out of nowhere, she spoke in her clear normal voice (which I hadn't heard for quite some time; it was a protracted cancer death), in her normal tone of voice, the same way anyone would if someone on the other side of a bedroom entered the door. Her eyes were semi-closed, but she was "looking" at a point at the end of the bed with great interest and concentration as she spoke, and her voice was totally animated. It became very quickly obvious that she was carrying on a conversation with her mother (my maternal grandmother), who had died more than a decade earlier. And suddenly, she was her saucy, snap-crackle-pop, effervescent self--and I hadn't seen her that way for years.

I know that my grandmother asked her how she felt, because she answered the question "immediately" (and no, I could not hear the question, but it was obvious what was going on--I knew my grandmother pretty well, too). "Pretty PUNK," she said, with both vehemence and also the weariness of just wanted to get the dying process over with and get to "the other side," whatever that may have turned out to be. There was back-and-forth for at least three or four minutes, lots of information passed back-and-forth about people in our family (some dead; some still very much alive). It the exactly the same conversation they would have had with each other if they had been reunited after being apart for ten or so years--newsy and gossipy in a totally family way. But what got me was her voice: it was the voice of the aunt I had known growing up and during my young adulthood...not the strained, aging, deteriorating, crackly, dying voice of this woman who had been dying of cancer for the past three or four years.

"Soon," she said. "As soon as I can." (The last words she ever spoke.)

And then her eyes closed completely, as they had been before this all began, and her muscles released back into the medical bed (and until then, I hadn't realized that she had been, to some extent, "reaching upward" with her body as she talked to my dead grandmother.

She died less than two hours later.

I do believe she was talking to my grandmother, and I do believe that my grandmother was--at least in some way, on SOME level--"there"...even if it's a way or a level that I do not understand. I do believe that this was not a phantom of my aunt's imagination, but that she and my grandmother really were talking to each other.

And I've heard enough stories since, many from people who I have no family relationship with, to believe that this general experience is fairly widespread among people who go through an actual dying PROCESS.

I do believe tht my grandmother was in my aunt's bedroom that night.

But neither one of them paid the SLIGHTEST attention to me (nor was I mentioned in their conversation with each other)! Which I thought was funny because, had both of them been alive and well, it would have been EXACTLY the same thing, so far as paying attention to me was concerned.

It may have only been three or four minutes long, but they were replaying my experience of my personal family history.

:-)

I subscribe to Skeptic magazine. Like an alcoholic, my willingness to believe in Mormonim taught me that I must be vigilant in what I decide is factual. I ask myself, "Is it more likely that X is the case, or is there more evidence pointing to Y? And I look at what I am calling "evidence."

The brains of the dying are impaired. We see the lights going out in a shutting down process of natural death. I think of the process like what happens when we go to sleep. As we lose consciousness, our brain takes the little noises in the room and weaves them into scenes. It uses material from our memory. Even though we heard a crackling, for example, and our mind made it into a fire, and we woke up frightened with heart racing, does our rapid heartbeat indicate there was a real fire?

Of course not. The fire was a dream created by our mind to explain the random noise. It does this all day long in the background, but we never notice it because we are doing our conscious thinking routine all day.

Now add to that the fact that virtually all dreams of contact with loved ones are comforting. I've had these dreams--and they do seem real. I've had premonitions which I can't explain. Yet I do understand now that the brain has ways of obtaining information that we don't really understand yet. We just don't know what we don't know....

Back to the death bed. To me, it is more likely that your mother's brain shutting down in sections had some beneficial effects that were temporary. We see this in flashes of clarity among the mentally ill, or the complete restoration of memory in an Alzheimers patient, albeit temporary. Because we work out problems during sleep, we know that our brains give us what we need. Our brain gives us a comforting visit from a loved one after they've died--but not many, just one or two. It has other business to deal with too, you know, so it doesn't keep that up.

Given all of the above, it seems more likely that a conversation with a dead loved one is wish fulfillment at the end of life. It's an expectation for some people that they will be reunited and the brain is only too happy to execute that subroutine.

The mystical part is the living brain and the wondrous connections we have with all beings.

Anagrammy

My friend who works for hospice says most everyone she has been with at the moment of death is greeted by someone they knew in this life. It didn't matter how old the person was, or what religion, she said there was always someone they knew and they loved. Whether it is from God or your mind it is a coping mechanism that sounds kind of nice and I am pretty sure there are no bakers' caps involved. :)

I am told that a few days before my great-grandmother died, she talked to deceased people in the room. She told them that "I can't go with you today. I have to take care of George [her husband] first. But if you come back on Tuesday I'll go with you."

Tuesday she died.

The only thing that made me discount the comments of Anagrammy was that in a dream when we have a conversation with someone - we're talking to them in the dream - not having a verbal conversation like the ones these dying people are described as having.

with death before my parents died. Their deaths more than convinced me there is an afterlife--and that is just my own experience.

My parents were not impaired when they died. My mother had just had dinner and asked for a second dessert (she was in a rehab center after a short hospitalization for infection--she had rheumatoid arthritis for 26 years and was still very much with it right to the end). While someone was getting another dessert for her, she died. My dad was also lucid when he died--within minutes after someone left his bedroom he died. He was having normal conversations with me included in those by phone. I didn't know dying could be "that easy"--that you could leave this world so easily.

I won't go into more detail. It is too close to my heart. My parents' deaths were amazing experiences. AND as Rene Zellweiger (sp) says in "One True Thing"--"I never knew I could miss them so much."

Certainly the brain participates in the process of physical death, but that doesn't mean there is not also a spiritual process involved in transitioning the person from this life to the next.

My own belief is that death is probably very much like birth. I think we will transition to another life in which we may have more intelligence and ability, and may understand things that are impossible for us to grasp now.

Of course, everyone is welcome to his or her own belief. Nobody really knows what follows death, so no one is in a position to simply dismiss anyone else's belief.

almost all my aunts and uncles, my parents, even my dog (almost 14 years), a close friend--all within the past 3 or 4 years.

It occurred to me before my parents died (my mother's brother died 6 months before from a brain aneurysm while in a bike race at age 75)--that death is probably very much like birth--just as you stated.

You know, I got a lot of comfort from the dream I had after my son died where he and I walked around the cemetery and talked.

I don't care that I wasn't physically in the cemetery, it was real to me in my mind.

Since leaving Mormonism, I am careful with raising my expectations, but I have to say I expect miracles every day and am quite comfortable with the fact that coincidences occur at a much higher frequency than mathematical probabilities would indicate.

When you realize the participation of every human mind in creating reality, then the whole idea of "reality" begins to shimmer. Wouldn't it be interesting if only those who expect their loved ones to be there when they die get them?

Or that Mormon Celestial Glory in all it's polygamy and sex is actually hell for those who have hurt so many people scrambling to get there?

Or the most important scientific question of all - why are the departed spirits not holding up signs saying "MORMON CHURCH = NOT TRUE."

That would be conclusive to me!

Anagrammy

Feel for you. I took care of my dying mother on hospice for 9 months. Her kidneys along with alot of other complications shut down in the end. She survived 8 days and 9 nights without anything but a few ice chips and swaps in her mouth. It was the worst experience I have ever been through. She pretty much was in a coma. There were times though before where she would get infections and get all riled up about seeing people in the room. I t scared me to death. She was also paralysed the last year of her life which the only time I was thankful for that was when she had an infection episode and started talking to people that weren't there like the police, yelling get off that babies head and trying to get out of bed. This would last several hours until the meds kicked in and she would settle down. Her conversations were very real to her and only increased her anxiety - along with mine. Lack of oxygen to the head I have heard will cause people to see things that aren't truly there. I can see why people believe in after life because I know she would see things flying around all the time. Very sad my moms hospice nurses were the best; they all have a special place in my heart. You are a special person for being a hospice nurse in my opinion.

My dad recently died. He couldn't speak clearly because of strokes. He quit eating and drinking too. But he was always fixated on the same areas of the room. He'd point to a corner where a little stand was. I'd lift up every object asking if he wanted it. He shook his head 'no' to all, and kept pointing. One day he was asked "Who do you see?", and he managed to get out the first name of my grandpa, my mom's dad.

Shannon,

Ged (as in Geddy Lee) bless you for being a hospice nurse. My mother and father-in-law passed away at home under hospice care and I am forever grateful to those special "angels."

I have no idea if there is an afterlife or death is it for us. I think anagrammy's view is more likely, but there is no way to know for sure. I like what DebbiePA said. Live a good life, be good to people, and don't worry about such things. I'm comforted that if there is an afterlife, it is not a Mormon *shudder* afterlife.

I'm a long time lurker on this board. I enjoy many of your contributions, and have found this website extraordinarily helpful as I discovered the truth about Mormonism.

One thing I'm impressed with on this sight is how excepting and polite most of you are when it comes to addressing others' opinions and offering your own. All the more impressive when you consider the personal and emotional nature of the topics discussed.

Shannon, I dont know if there's a heaven or afterlife, but I wholeheartedly, in faith, believe there is! And I believe in all the "as if she were's" you mentioned! Thats just me, but it sure gives me a sense of peace and happiness that I never had when I considered the other possibilty! Delusional, wishful thinking, ignoring the facts, whatever explanation or labels others want to use to define my faith doesnt offend me at all! They have every right to their opinion! I do find it interesting when others pass off their opinions as set in stone facts! When it comes to God and an afterlife it all comes down to faith! Believers and nonbelievers alike are exercising faith! if you are a believer you are trusting in faith that God exists and that what you understand about God is true! If you are an unbeliever you place your faith in the evidence and the logical and reasonable conclusions derived from that evidence minimizing the plausibilty of the supernatural! In my opinion, of coarse! I do realize I made some generalizations! There are many who would say that there is no difference between believing in the myth of mormonism and believing in God or spirituality. I know there is enough evidence that proves beyond reasonable doubt that mormonism is a fraud! But I believe there is enough empirical evidence (spiritual experiences) that allows reasonable people to believe in faith that God exists in spite of reasonable doubt! Anyway, I appreciate your post. I enjoyed reading it!

I just got back from work - my patient survived the night.

As I was reading over my nursing notes this morning I came across another statement my patient made that sent chills running up my spine.

When she said, "I feel like I am splitting in two. I feel like two people," she ALSO said:

"I feel like I'm sliding out of my body."

How spooky is that? Doesn't that sound like her spirit was trying to break loose?

I dunno.

I'm not sure just what my beliefs are about the afterlife anymore. I've become a lot more scientific in my thinking since exiting Mormonism and entering the nursing field. I have no doubt that rational thinkers can logically explain the dying process to me in a way that makes sense.

But, secretly in my heart, I still hope there's a party full of loved ones waiting for me when I pass. Y'know?

;o)

When I was R.S. president (for 5yrs, a couple decades ago), several times when I visited people on their death bed I experienced people who were seeing and talking to someone else in the room. Also, those heavily medicated and asleep "woke up" when I talked to them, and responded, and then would insistently fall back to their sedated state when someone else came into the room.

People who have experienced such phenomenon, if they are like me, have a hard time believing what (to me) seems like convoluted reasons why it is just the mind playing spectacular tricks.

Since those days, I have become rather well read on this subject, both the scientific approaches, and "spiritual" (including NDEs). One book I recommend with a scientific approach and look at the evidence, is "Life after Death, The Evidence", by Dinesh D'Souza.

D'Souza points out that the flat-lining of brain waves, and every other scientific method for determining a person is dead, is at a loss to account for what people who were pronounced "dead", yet come back to life and report their experiences while their mortal body was dead. As it would seem, a flat-lined brain (and other physical evidences of death) cannot play "fireworks" tricks.

Yes, I believe these experiences to be real, and (IMO) are on a sounder basis than convoluted efforts to explain these experiences away.

I took Hospice training some years ago. I never worked with Hospice, but I did have a client through my Elder Care business that I sat with in the dying process at the hospital until her family could arrive.

She never spoke but her facial expressions often showed she was probably dreaming. She had ceased taking food and water and was probably predominately in a coma. The nurses advised us not to talk about the person in front of them as it was best to assume they could hear us. So, I sat with her and talked to her and sang to her and stoked her arm while we waited for her family. I left when I knew they were arriving. As soon as they arrived, she passed. I don't know if she rallied at all, but it appeared that she was waiting for them.

I have other experiences with the dying process but none that included any verbalizing with deceased family members.

I enjoyed reading other people's experiences with someone in the dying process. It's fascinating to hear what people say and do. I find some folks are very uncomfortable around someone who is dying and others are not.

For whatever reason, the brain seems to have a way of giving comfort to the person in the dying process.

My TBM aunt died of breast cancer.
My uncle was sitting with her in her last hours. He told her that if she was ready to go, to quit fighting it and go. He told her he was okay with it.
She opened her eyes and very clearly told him to go to hell!
Then she died.

Not to belittle the event, but I could see my mother saying that.

My mother passed in 2004. She had indicated to me that she was ready to leave this life. At the end she was surrounded by family. I held one hand and my niece the other. She simply breathed slower and slower. My sister was leaving for Europe on vacation. At about the time her plane was due to take off, Mom sat up in bed and expelled her breath twice very forceably as though she were releasing her spirit.

It is my impression is that individuals who are at peace with their lives make the transition very calmly. I am amazed at how strongly so many of us fight against death. It seems to me that death, as has been mentioned, merely another transition.

I am ex and agnostic. However, for whatever reasons, I believe that there is a life after this one and that I will be reunited with my loved ones simply because that is the way it is. For me, it has nothing to do with temple mumbo jumbo no matter what the priesthood holder, witch doctors might claim.

Dad was very heavy in a coma. Woke up enough to have the nurse get my mother and called me by phone. He couldn't speak but wanted to talk to me. I spoke to him and tried to tell him it was all ok. After he hung up he kept pointing to the corner of the room and my mother kept asking him what he was seeing. She ran through the list of things which he shook his head and nodded when she said his mother, father and jesus.

I was 8 hours away but he waited till I got there to leave.

Considering that she's been off food for three days there's a good chance she's hypoglycemic and just hallucinating. I don't think one can accurately speculate if she is 'trying to get through the veil'... I mean, at her age and health.

I've had a lady in a skilled care home who quit eating after her husband died. She got so thin and deranged the doc was contemplating having the nursing staff force feed her (this gal was in her mid 70's and was mentally alright before that). She got more and more physically aggressive toward women as she starved herself... but after a while somehow became very receptive to male nursing staff. Unfortunately there weren't many male on our staff... but I had very short hair and looked very much like a boy, so I always got assigned to her ward because she wouldn't let the other female nurses and aids get near her without a fight.

Once she started eating again she recovered quite well and even got overweight as a result. :oP

I think a lot of paranormalish things people experience aren't paranormal at all, but something like sleep paralysis or hallucination. A lot of the witchcraft and devil possessions of the medieval age, for example, were just mass affliction of ergotism from contaminated rye. Better rule out natural causes before speculating supernatural ones.

Honestly, I think all this veil stuff, and seeing the "other side" is nothing more than overactive imaginations, based on what we were conditioned to believe as kids.

The "white light"? Oxygen deprivation as the body shuts down.

I'm sure this hospice patient was a sweet lady, but she was imagining things. Science, logic and reason don't support a mythical God or Jebus. Sorry to break it to ya, but talking to spirits? Just imaginary friends. Comforting? Sure, but again, there's no logical support for the notion of spirits and all this religion hoohah.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/2012 03:46PM by newexmo.