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Posted by: volrammos ( )
Date: March 03, 2012 07:54AM

How common is inbreeding?

Where I live there is a close knit christian group who marry cousins to keep their ethnic-lineage intact. There are some genetic-deficiencis showing up; deafness, mental and cognitive decline.

I look at inbreeding as the rational goal according to the dictate - Thou shalt not see.. Thou shalt not hear, or speak..

If you want to take peoples reason away, let them inbreed.

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Posted by: oddcouplet ( )
Date: March 03, 2012 07:56AM

There is a Mormon fundamentalist group called the Order (aka the Kingston Clan or the Davis County Cooperative) that inbreeds as a matter of policy because they believe they are the "pure blood line" of Jesus' descendants.

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Posted by: volrammos ( )
Date: March 03, 2012 07:58AM

Lol

"they believe they are the "pure blood line" of Jesus' descendants."

That is exactly what they also say!

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Posted by: Hickmans Hounds ( )
Date: March 03, 2012 08:33AM

Welcome to Cache Valley, Utah where the question remains..."if a husband and wife get divorced, are they still brother and sister?"

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: October 26, 2016 12:08AM

Do you have specifics, personal knowledge? At least a few others post from the Logan area.

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Posted by: weeder ( )
Date: October 26, 2016 03:13PM

There is some SERIOUS damage done to the people there.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: March 03, 2012 08:46AM

Priesthood guys traded wives. They sometimes took babies from mothers and gave them to others wives. These kids grew up and wouldn't know they were marrying close biological kin.

The population in Zion was sparse and early prominent families intermarried for generations keeping the gene pool small.

This meant a high percentage of genetic disease which still persists to some extent.

The Kingston plyg group requires members to marry relatives, but many other plyg groups encourage or allow for it.

My mainstream TBM sister has found that she is related to her husband in two different ways several generations back. This isn't unusual when both man and wife have ancestors dating back to before mormons crossed the plains to Utah.

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Posted by: Wally Prince ( )
Date: October 05, 2018 02:14AM

Cystic fibrosis is a hereditary disease and, IIRC, only occurs when both parents carry the CF-related gene.

Anecdotal, I know, but I don't personally know any non-Mormon families with CF kids. I wonder if the incidence rate among Mormons is significantly higher than in the general population.

It would probably have been greatly exacerbated by Mormon polygamy. You could have sisters in one family being married off to various big plyg families. Then their offspring get married off to big plyg families. Then their offspring intermarry without knowing that they're cousins and so on.

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Posted by: exmollymo ( )
Date: March 03, 2012 09:20AM

Funny thing happened last night - I was at a ward social with my family. While visiting with my friend, the Bishop's wife, was telling me that her husband is from an area in Utah that is known for inbreeding. She said she teases him about it and calls him inbred (even though he's not). The conversation came up because another friend showed us his web toes.

I think she said that he is from Hooper, but she has a Utah accent, and it sounded like Huper. Not sure if they're the same or not.

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Posted by: Tom Padley ( )
Date: December 02, 2013 08:43PM

That's how Hooper is pronounced in Huper. I know several people from there. Sounds like a great place for cousin/sister/brother/mother/father spouses.

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Posted by: sunbeep ( )
Date: October 25, 2016 08:28PM

uh oh, I gots lots a relatives in Hooper and I'm from Taylor.

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: March 03, 2012 10:16AM

I once did a color coded org-chart style flowchart showing the inbreeding in the Kingston (polygamous) clan. I was astounded at the number of men marrying their own nieces and the many "fasting" deaths.


Anagrammy

PS. As I understood it from the women, they did not allow grossly deformed children to live even if viable, because it was considered a statement of faith to smother such a child, thus allowing them to come back down in a better body. I felt certain this was folklore and not orthodoxy, but I was not an insider. Maybe others more familiar might comment.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: March 03, 2012 10:38AM

The Kingston group is probably the most secretive of the larger gourps and one of the most violent and backward.

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Posted by: Renie ( )
Date: December 02, 2013 06:21PM

Why I hang at this site...as a nomo (never mo?) from PA I'd never heard of this group..so today I spent the afternoon learning something new. Wow...amazing that things like this go on in modern-day USA!

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Posted by: Hedning ( )
Date: November 01, 2016 06:16PM


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Posted by: scmd ( )
Date: October 26, 2016 03:24PM

anagrammy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I once did a color coded org-chart style flowchart
> showing the inbreeding in the Kingston
> (polygamous) clan. I was astounded at the number
> of men marrying their own nieces and the many
> "fasting" deaths.
>
>
> Anagrammy
>

Kathleen,

Please tell me about the "fasting deaths." Was it the clan's modern-day version of putting a baby on a rock and letting it die if it was in some way defective, or was it some sort of punishment or errant members?

Thanks,

Scott

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Posted by: anagrammy ( )
Date: November 01, 2016 05:52PM

The research we did showed a lot of people who disappeared and turned up dead. These were usually those who tried to escape and were murdered or who were literally starved to death. There was a common history of dissent and disobedience before the disappearance. The record would show they would be given the opportunity to repent and demonstrate their determination through fasting.

Deformed children caused by inbreeding were killed via the water drowning method. It was common in those times to hold an infants head under the running faucet if they wouldn't stop crying. Like waterboarding. Since some survived, it was thought to be God's will, not murder. A sick version of survival of the fittest.

What a sad, sad history. And yet some mothers of deformed children were allowed to keep them but they were hidden, being seen as condemnation, the result of some sin of the mother (of course). Their births were not acknowledged or reported and everyone knows about the baby cemetary, although the stones have been removed in modern times due to ghoulish tourists.


Kathleen Waters

PS. If you want more information, this was from a presentation given in 2006 or 2007 (can't recall) by a woman named LInda (last name escapes me at the moment) who lives in Hawaii. She worked closely with the police department and did much original research on early church practices, sanctioned child abuse, etc. She was aghast that the Mormon church had zero interest in helping those whose adherents to D&C 132 had brought them so much pain.

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Posted by: H20 ( )
Date: December 02, 2013 02:48PM

Jesus wasn't real..

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Posted by: adoylelb ( )
Date: December 02, 2013 03:00PM

I've mentioned this before, but my mainstream TBM ex-husband's parents were at least second cousins, and both sides of his family do go back to the founding of Mormonism itself.

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Posted by: sizterh ( )
Date: December 02, 2013 03:59PM

This may be off topic.

When I was a teenager my second cousin and his family came to visit. He had a teenage son around my age. We got a long very well and had a great time.

At one point my mom came up to me and said in a singing voice, "I think he liiiikes yooou!"

I could not believe it. This was family! My sisters and I were repulsed at the idea and could not believe she said it.

My parents and extended family were all from an area in Idaho that I have learned on here has a very high Mormon population.

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Posted by: amos2 ( )
Date: December 02, 2013 04:06PM

My TBM wife and me found out we are 5th cousins a year or two after we got married.
At least I think it's 5th. We didn't really recheck the math because I think we were a little worried it might be 4th.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: December 02, 2013 04:12PM

In the mainstream Mormon church, people sometimes marry without realizing their geneology crosses with their spouse. A limited number families trace back to early church history and when Mormon royalty mate, they're likely blood relations.

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Posted by: ThinkingOutLoud ( )
Date: December 03, 2013 02:02PM


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Posted by: Southern ExMo ( )
Date: December 03, 2013 02:33PM

As a young person, I used to work as a social worker for awhile here in a large southern city.


Family members would sleep in the same room, in the same bed -- male, female, son, daughter, niece, nephew, uncle, aunt, grandpa, grandma, cousin -- it didn't matter -- and who knew what else they were doing besides sleeping, until the young girl applied for medical benefits, food stamps, WIC, and other government freebies for the fetus growing inside her..


In some parts of the city I worked in, they didn't think a thing about this.


And they were NOT Mormon.

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Posted by: ThinkingOutLoud ( )
Date: December 03, 2013 05:16PM

Same with the Amish in our area and back where I used to live in Ohio. Birth defects due to incest, small gene pool intermarriage and inbreeding. Very young brides. Low birth weight infants. Genetic abnormalities.

Granted, the unmarried sex issue was less prominent. Same difference, though, on the eventual outcomes of too tightly controlling or too soon encouraging the mating amongst and between one's own family groupings.

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Posted by: catnip ( )
Date: October 04, 2018 02:03AM

In-laws, outlaws, three or four generations. I remember doing a "field call" on one family of ELEVEN who lived in a rickety old single-wide trailer.

Grade-school kids knew all about sex, because it was carried out in front of them, on a fairly regular basis. I was shocked, because I had been a very sheltered kid.

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Posted by: thedesertrat1 ( )
Date: December 03, 2013 05:07PM

I know of a town near Utah where first cousin marriage is common. Also common is Down syndrome. Is there a connection?

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Posted by: scmd ( )
Date: October 26, 2016 03:41PM

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know of a town near Utah where first cousin
> marriage is common. Also common is Down syndrome.
> Is there a connection?


Down Syndrome is not related to inbreding. http://www.globaldownsyndrome.org/about-down-syndrome/facts-about-down-syndrome/

Many other effects may be, but Down Syndrome is not.

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: October 26, 2016 04:00PM


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Posted by: kathleen ( )
Date: October 04, 2018 02:27AM

scmd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thedesertrat1 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I know of a town near Utah where first cousin
> > marriage is common. Also common is Down
> syndrome.
> > Is there a connection?
>
>
> Down Syndrome is not related to inbreding.
> http://www.globaldownsyndrome.org/about-down-syndr
> ome/facts-about-down-syndrome/
>
> Many other effects may be, but Down Syndrome is
> not.


Questions:

So, then it would logically follow that other trisomy defects such as Trisomy 18 are not due to inbreeding ?

Is Fragile X due to inbreeding ?

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Posted by: Briston Crowell ( )
Date: October 25, 2016 07:45PM

yes

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Posted by: dejavue ( )
Date: October 25, 2016 08:20PM

Fumarase is a condition that is prevalent in Colorado City and Hilldale, It a genetic in that it manifests when two people who are carrying the DNA have children together. Children are born and usually only survive a short while (few years at the most).

Their parents collect a lot of money off of them from the federal and state welfare system. (Bleeding the beast) and I have heard it stated by some of the girls that they hope they are carrying a baby that has defects so they can receive the $ dole from the govt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 08:20PM by dejavue.

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Posted by: severedpuppetstrings ( )
Date: October 25, 2016 08:28PM

One of the daughters of my TBM roommate married her sixth cousin. My roommate said, "They're far apart enough that it's okay, but still close enough."

And I thought, "Close enough for what?"

I guess she's glad the blood is staying "pure"? Just a guess from her words.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 08:44PM by severedpuppetstrings.

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Posted by: nomonomo ( )
Date: October 25, 2016 08:34PM

I did a little "research" (i.e. Google searching) a few years ago about Mormon inbreeding. I turned up quite a bit without trying too hard.

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Posted by: cinda ( )
Date: October 25, 2016 09:07PM

When I lived in Tooele, UT(pronounced 'Tuwilla', for those of you not in the Morridor). a common saying was, "If you get married/divorced in Tooele, are you still cousins in Grantsville?" Grantsville being another small town only approx. 12 miles away. I think, sometimes, it was only partly in jest, as there did seem to be evidence of inbreeding between these two towns, in what is known as the 'West desert'



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/25/2016 09:14PM by cinda.

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Posted by: Heartless ( )
Date: October 25, 2016 09:49PM

I had to leave utah to find someone to marry I wasn't related to.

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Posted by: Anon lurker ( )
Date: November 01, 2016 06:59PM

Bad news for ya, you are related to all humans.

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Posted by: Anon lurker ( )
Date: November 01, 2016 07:01PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage

80% of historical marriages were with first or second cousins, 10% of marriages(world wide) today. It really isn't that odd from a historical perspective.

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Posted by: elderpopejoy ( )
Date: October 26, 2016 01:08AM

Hickmans Hounds Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Welcome to Cache Valley, Utah where the question
> remains..."if a husband and wife get divorced, are
> they still brother and sister?"

Yes,they are.

And the young studs who show up on time at family reunions are looking for babes.

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Posted by: Gentle Gentile ( )
Date: October 26, 2016 02:55PM

And this will only get worse with the shrinking membership *shudders*

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Posted by: fossilman ( )
Date: October 26, 2016 03:08PM

Purely academic:

I know all my first cousins, so I know if I'd married one of them.

If I found out that my wife was my second cousin after we were married, I would be worried.

If I found out that my wife was my third cousin after we were married, I would be a little worried.

If I found out that my wife was my fourth cousin after we were married, I'd probably laugh a bit about it, then think, "At what point would this really become a genetic issue?"

So at what point does it become a genetic concern?


Disclosure: my wife and I have no common ancestors back at least seven generations.

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Posted by: scmd ( )
Date: October 29, 2016 09:04PM

fossilman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Purely academic:
>
> I know all my first cousins, so I know if I'd
> married one of them.
>
> If I found out that my wife was my second cousin
> after we were married, I would be worried.
>
> If I found out that my wife was my third cousin
> after we were married, I would be a little
> worried.
>
> If I found out that my wife was my fourth cousin
> after we were married, I'd probably laugh a bit
> about it, then think, "At what point would this
> really become a genetic issue?"
>
> So at what point does it become a genetic
> concern?
>
>
> Disclosure: my wife and I have no common ancestors
> back at least seven generations.

Fossilman, you can't go very wrong with your guidelines. In fact, in absence of any rampant genetic predisposition running through a family's bloodlines, the average person would be pretty safe marrying his third cousin.

Interestingly, JFK's grandfather, honey Fitz', former mayor of Boston, married his second cousin, josies Hannon. in this days a person had to receive special dispensation from the Catholic Church, which usually just involved putting down wad of money. There were time when Roe kennedy, JFK's mother, wondered if Rosemary's pre-lobotomy delays might have been due to her parents having been related. Rose's husband, Joseph P. Kennedy, supposedly wondered if Rosemary's condition was some sort of divine retribution for his philandering lifestyle. Most likely it was neither. When Rosemary was ready to be born, the doctor was nowhere to be found because of a Spanish influenza outbreak. Even though nurses and women less qualified than they at that point had been successfully delivering babies for centuries, it was considered of such importance that the doctor be present at the birth that a nurse held baby Rosemary's head in her mother's birth canal util the doctor eventually arrived. Eunice Kennedy Shriver considered that to be the probable cause for Rosemary's pre-lobotomy state. No one will ever know for sure.

You'd think that with all the emphasis on genealogy that is done, Mormons would have a reasonable understanding of what makes two people first-cousins-once-removed, second cousins, etc. I have an aunt - my dad's sister- who insists that my child is her son's second cousin. The topic was covered in the first week of my genetics class. When I tried to explain to her about first-cousins once-removed, I lost her. "Oh, you're talking 'bout people that aren't even related now." I didn't even bother going into actual second cousins, third cousins and how many potentially different degrees of removedness there could be between any of them. It was a lost cause.

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Posted by: dagny ( )
Date: October 04, 2018 08:06AM

I honestly don't know I would recognize all my first cousins. There were over a hundred of them. I don't even think I knew all their names.

When I told my aunt I was going to go to BYU, she said, "Be careful who you date- might be your cousin." I thought she was joking but she wasn't.

I also don't know exactly when it would be concerning. At some point it's all just a sea of genes.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: October 26, 2016 03:38PM

My parents (one was a convert,) are distant cousins through our Old English ancestry. They didn't know this. I found out several years ago at Christmastime.

The same set of parents they're cousins through had twelve children together. Two daughters out of the dozen children are my great grandmothers, one is 18 generations back; the other is 20.

The link closest to you is the generation of the ancestor you count for genealogical purposes. One of the siblings of the two sisters is the great grandfather of George Washington, 10X's.

So George is related to me through that bloodline on each side of my parents tree. My brothers didn't know this until I discovered it tracing our heritage. One of my TBM brothers favorite president is George. He has the picture of him praying at Valley Forge, in his workplace office, and several of his biographies. It was my Christmas present to him to let him know that he's cousins of George. Tee hee hee hee.

As for Mormon "inbreeding," there were cousins marrying cousins outside of Mormonism up to the 19th century. It was a fairly common practice for people to do that, especially in small clans or villages where many are related to begin with.

It wasn't only a Mormon practice, it was fairly widespread. It wasn't until the 20th century when it became taboo.

That being said, one of my first cousins parents were first cousins, they were born around 100 years ago, both long ago deceased. She is very sensitive about it to this day. She moved as far away from the Morridor as soon as she was able to get away because of the teasing she endured growing up in her small country Mormon town she was born and raised (she has remained TBM to this day.) Her mother's mother was her father's father's sister.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2016 03:39PM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: Amyjo ( )
Date: October 26, 2016 03:47PM

Nearly all of the US presidents past and present are related to George Washington as blood cousins by varying degrees.

It's so common that if one future US president is not related, that will be an aberration. The couple of past US presidents who aren't blood relatives of Washington are related through marriage.

Every single US president is related to George, with the exception of Gerald Ford (He was adopted and his biological history remains a mystery.) That ought to give folks an idea how common it is to be related to George, if you have old English ancestry.

https://www.geni.com/blog/look-whos-related-george-washington-and-all-the-presidents-325451.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/26/2016 03:55PM by Amyjo.

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Posted by: Trails end ( )
Date: October 30, 2016 12:33PM

Aristocracy seems to like to keep things in the family...even big banking and money families marry close to keep family biz in the family...dont ever pull back the covers on elite marriage...itll explain far too much of the crazy floating around right now..anybody seen weiner around lately...I've always felt teeny tiny pity for those infested with elitism...like diahrea...it runs in the genes...but money certainly makes suffering more tolerable... Many moes seem to feel close marriage is just fine cuz gawd has the striped shirt and whistle to call the game...and hes never made a bad call...except for two earrings and illegal use of hands below the belt

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Posted by: caffiend ( )
Date: October 30, 2016 11:39PM

HickmansHound, Weeder, and ElderPopeJoy:

What parts or villages in Cache Valley would you most likely find inbreeding? I was asking somebody about the most "hick" part of the county, and he suggested Wellsville. What say you folks?

How about the villages further north, say Clarkston, Trenton, Cornish, Weston? Or the other side of the Clarkston Range--Plymouth and Portage? I gather the Kingston Clan has a rather large amount of ranchland up there.

We're talking communities of 200-450 people. Can't be much exposure to outside prospects for marriage there.

Maybe Cl2, Villager, or other Cache Valley folks might like to weigh in on this.

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Posted by: Utah is absurd ( )
Date: October 02, 2018 09:05PM

Has anyone else noticed a correlation between the number of grammatical and spelling errors and the apologist-tone of posts that attempt to rationalize the extent to which Utah embraces inbreeding?

Utah is where intellect goes to die. The idea that BYU is the “best” school in the state is mind-blowing. I am surprised it ever found accreditation. My exposure to its programs as an educator left me extremely saddened. There are institutionized practices in Utah that allow an ill-equipped populace to survive. Some of these practices are equally hilarious and appalling. ...like the only-present-in-Utah concept of “withdrawal fail” as a grade for a course - which allows “students” to withdrawal from a course they are failing at the end of a semester and not have that failure affect their GPA. This “special” accommodation for kids unfortunate enough to grow up in Utah artificially inflates the academic record of any student who makes use of it. I have slowly been exposed to a slew of “special” rules and even more “special” people as I’ve lived the past decade in the cultural bubble of Salt Lake. I fear the horrors I may see in the small towns dotting the desert which became a haven for the raft of sexually deviant outcasts whom made it their home after being driven from every town between SLC and upstate NY.

From my objective “outsider” perspective Mormonism appears little more than an ugly fraud with an even uglier underbelly. Given knowledge of its history, I was not surprised to learn that Utah has the nation’s highest rate for the sexual abuse of children. That doesn’t seem to fit with many people’s assumption regarding the Brady Bunch nature of the state, but it certainly fits with the trailer-in-the-desert housing relatives-that-sleep-together reality.

Salt Lake now has a nice downtown mall though...

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Posted by: ificouldhietokolob ( )
Date: October 03, 2018 09:14AM

Utah is absurd Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> From my objective “outsider” perspective
> Mormonism appears little more than an ugly fraud
> with an even uglier underbelly.

It appears the same way from an "insider" perspective, once you stop drinking the kool-aid. :)

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Posted by: lisadee ( )
Date: October 03, 2018 11:02PM

IMO, "Pioneer Stock" really means "My great-grandfather is also my cousin."

And may be closer than that.

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Posted by: Paintingnotloggedin ( )
Date: October 05, 2018 01:54AM

before folks even discovered D N A!

What with spiritual wives, who were the prophet's spiritual wives physically wifing with him part time, but legally married to another man, divorce is complex in some plural families. Even the geneology charts might mistakenly list genetically various kids within a family, which we mistake now adays as meaning them to be genetically related.

Folks, That's what the temple sealings were for- being related through birth to your mother and whomever she was sealed with (period.- safe sealed in a line thru eternity amen the end. not the bio dad she might have been called temporarily to be Brigham young's wife as a spiritual wife. In the beginning, God brought them to Utah and it wasn't supposed to matter if an apostle or prophet invited them into a spiritual marriage they were "doing the right thing" when the prophet called them to anything. These were righteous people having sex. God blessed their off spring. He was supposed to anyways.

So now we've got three four five generations of various things dealing death & suffering to some unfortunate generations of daughters of Utah pioneers so unfairly suffering nothing could be further than the pioneer dreams. That's what pathos means. Tragedy. out of no ill intent only pioneer dreams weaved us some genetic recessive real morass. unintended suffering sharing community now from shared ancestry who only intended hope health and prosperity; it is the true l d s tragedy

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Posted by: JoeSmith666 ( )
Date: October 05, 2018 01:43PM

You can see the results of Polygamous inbreeding in the Packer clan in Brigham City, UT. Boyd K Packer came from there. The enlarged head, overbite and short/blocky body type from so much intermarrying of relatives is the problem.

The greed and slick business practices they developed on their own - like owning the land the Boyd KKK Packer memorial Temple was built on. They were supposed to develop it for business use but somehow, after getting concessions from the City for that it never, ever got done. Miraculously it was available for them to sell to LDS,inc - how about that?

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Posted by: Utah is absurd ( )
Date: October 06, 2018 03:30AM

I’ve tried to decode “Paintingnotloggedin’s” post and am curious if any other readers may have insight or can judge the accuracy of what I think that post attempts to express, which I’ve put in quotes below for each of the paragraphs in their post.

1st Paragraph: “Determining custody in a polygamous group living together can be difficult because some of the children may have been fathered by Brigham Young (i.e., whomever was acting “prophet” at the time) if he had called upon one or some of the women to sleep with him, so determining which children are half-siblings of a particular lineage from those whom are half-siblings of a different lineage and/or from those whom are full siblings of one lineage or from full siblings of another is not always straightforward - which is due to the unknown surrounding who the biological father of a particular child is, if it ever occurred that Brigham and the other guy had “both been spiritual” with the same woman to near to each other in time. ...at least without DNA testing.” - Is that right? ...and is that the relevance of the comment about DNA’s discovery?

2nd Paragraph: I understand the writer’s implications though the second half of this paragraph, but I need help re “sealings” - the only interpretation I can derive is contradictory of itself, which makes me at least “want” to believe it’s incorrect...

3rd Paragraph: “There are three to five generations of daughters descended from Mormon pioneers who’ve been dealt death and suffering from the occurrence of multiple recessive genetic diseases within their community. ...and communities are sharing that suffering as these diseases are more prevalent than should otherwise be expected.” - Is that what they were trying to convey? Does Mormon doctrine contain its own definition for “pathos” akin to the meaning of “intelligence” when used as the singular form of “intelligences,” or did this person think “pathos” is synonymous with “tragedy” on their own?


Thank you to anyone who replies with their opinion or thoughts,

Cheers -

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Posted by: Paintingnotloggedin ( )
Date: October 06, 2018 11:14AM

1. in old Deseret people had sex who were not legally married but were not sinning- at the same time they were married to their legal husband when some were called as spiritual wives,

(do you need citations from family journals and Utah history to understand the doctrine and history of spiritual wives in old Deseret within the practice of plural wives?)

and therefore, family trees based upon legally married group sheets in geneology are not accurate indicators of genetics

2. God would know that before we came along, he or she knew about genetics and recessives if they created the universe and us what the gosh darn it is goin on! how dare they tell our ancestors in zion they could sleep with each other via spiritual wives not legally recorded kids- make recessives- causing pain and suffering in the down line! come on we are suffering.

IF people now are making choices, based upon on old family groups sheets for dna genetic health safety choices, they are in trouble. That's what I am saying. Because the pioneers legal records were not correlated precisely with genetic child creation in ways they are now. That's what I am saying.

See 2004 July 31 New York Times Article, "By Accident, Utah is Proving An Ideal Genetic Laboratory" by Kirk Johnson... many paragraphs down in the article, the author states that currently Utah dna paternity tests give !% non paternity. However during pioneer times, with priesthood run folks called to polygamy as well as called to spiritual wives concurrently legally married to other pioneers- those family group sheet records Do NOT accurately portray genetics or dna.

people who were following the rules got these outcomes. They trust him / god. they thought Brigham Young had a direct pipe line to god.. they trusted. they did what they thought was right- and look what happened.

list or link genetic conditions - google it. its sad its horrible. That's tragedy. And the fact that people did what God told them to, that's the irony. ( or they were misled) They did the very best that they could in 1850 and then look at this mess.

That's what I meant.

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Posted by: Beavis Stenson ( )
Date: October 07, 2018 11:36AM


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Posted by: Utah is absurd ( )
Date: October 08, 2018 01:12AM

I would like to apologize to anyone reading, as I’m sorry for redirecting my frustration toward something other than its source. The semi-anonymous ability to post on this forum prompted me to look for a target to blame as the aource of peculiarities around me. Utah is a beautiful place filled with a lot of nice people. The content of my posts and themes of this thread and forum are things I have no direct knowledge of. The whole world is absurd.

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Posted by: lisadee ( )
Date: October 13, 2018 10:22PM

Sons of polygamist making allegations of incest
| Posted Apr 30th, 2008 @ 10:02pm

John Hollenhorst reporting

The family of a wealthy southern Utah man who comes from a long line of polygamists has made shocking allegations of incest

The adult sons of Ross LeBaron, Jr. accuse him of fathering several children with his own daughter because of his beliefs about the reincarnation of Jesus Christ. LeBaron denies the accusations, but his sons say they've collected DNA evidence to back up their claims of incest.

David Uri LeBaron, the son of Ross LeBbaron, Jr., says, "We've done DNA testing. We know what's going on, and we're here to find a way to put an end to it."

The three sons say Ross LeBaron is a polygamist and may have spiritually married his own daughter, their sister. They're convinced he impregnated her four times because of a fundamentalist belief called the "pure seed doctrine." They're going public because they're worried that Utah incest law may prevent anyone involved from being prosecuted.

We first met Ross LeBaron, Jr. a decade ago when he told us his theory about the end of the world. Now, his sons say his religion has taken a disturbing turn.

"The concept that he has superior genetics, superior intelligence, if you will, due to his direct lineage of Jesus Christ," David said.

Several adult siblings still live with their dad on a ranch near Kanab and at other homes. Three sons who broke away say Ross LeBaron, Jr. believes he must maintain the purity of his seed.

Elend LeBaron said, "We basically know that my dad is impregnating and having children with my sister."

Another son, Alaric LeBaron, is an Air Force doctor in Afghanistan. Over the phone he told us, "My dad is a religious fanatic, and he believes in this. He believes that incest is going to bring back the line of Jesus Christ."

One adult daughter gave birth to four children, another had one. The three sons did saliva tests comparing their own DNA with two of their sisters' young children.

"Both of them, from our understanding, show that the father of those children were male members of the family," David said.

They believe their dad fathered four of the children. He didn't return our calls but spoke briefly with Mike Watkiss of Phoenix station KTVK. When asked, "Have you impregnated your daughters?" Ross LeBaron, Jr. replied, "Absolutely not." When questioned further, he tried to turn the camera off.

The three disaffected sons suspect their older brother, Wayne, who remains loyal to his father, himself fathered the fifth child by incest with his own sister. "Whether we choose to engage in that is a private matter, but I personally believe that the combination of out-marrying for genetic diversity and inter-marrying to fix beneficial traits can be beneficial for the right individuals," Wayne said.

The three sons fear their youngest sister will inbreed when she turns 18. Elend said, "She will be probably to another brother, I'm guessing, maybe my dad."

David said, "Through either that union or another inbreeding union, that they would create the future Savior, so to speak." He says the family believes it would create something like a reincarnation of the Savior.

Iron County Attorney Scott Garrett says his probe may take another two months. "Because it's under investigation, I don't want to make any more comment other then that, just that there is an active investigation."

The incest law requires proof of sexual intercourse. In fact, Ross LeBaron, Jr. told KTVK off-camera that if he did impregnate his daughter, it was because his wife performed artificial insemination. The sons don't believe that for a minute, but they say the law has to be changed to make an incestuous pregnancy illegal, regardless of how it was achieved.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/2018 10:25PM by lisadee.

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Posted by: elderolddog ( )
Date: October 13, 2018 10:33PM

Fascinating!! Thanks.

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