I've been wondering about this for quite a while.

What similarities are there between whatever government you may be under and fanatical organizations like the LDS Church, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Islam?

In my case, I live under a democratic republic regime known as the U.S. government. But I've wondered about how much of our patriotism is taken too far or misguided.

It seems that chanting "U.S.A., U.S.A." can seem like a hypnotic mantra at times.

And some of our "liberating" efforts come across as initiatives to serve corporate interests.

Perhaps I'm imagining things or maybe I've been reading too much of the wrong stuff.

However, I still ponder of such issues.

Here's a question to you: Can patriotism be a quasi religion?

*This thread and question applies to anyone who is reading this regardless of what country you live in.

"Patriotism to my conscience supersedes patriotism to my country/government."

Absolutely.

Whether this is "good" or "bad" depends to a huge extent on the realities of any given government that a national of that country owes allegience to, and ALSO to the level of mental/emotional/philosophical maturity in that person.

"Good" people can be fervently dedicated to "bad" governments, because they can't conceptualize alternatives or attain any kind of objectivity, or are trapped, somehow, in the system.

"Bad" people can be fervently dedicated to "good" governments because whatever government it is is THEIRS, and so--in their limited understanding or abilities--it is something to be supported. Put that same person in a totally different governmental system, a "bad" one, and they would likely support THAT government just as fervently so long as their own, personal, limited needs were being met.

Exactly the same thing with religion, for those of "conventional" or less-than-conventional levels of understanding and maturity (using Fowler's outline of faith levels).

It's the people who have transcended the "conventional" level who are able to break free of the conventional constraints and see with increasing objectivity.

But, people like sociopaths aside, most people have certain inner needs for affiliation and to be supportive--to be a functioning part of their own "society."

Religion and/or patriotism can BOTH meet these needs, but whether this is beneficial or not depends both upon the healthfulness of the religion involved, and/or the healthfulness of the nation in question.

Church Enemy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> It seems that chanting "U.S.A., U.S.A." can seem
> like a hypnotic mantra at times.
>

This can definitely be considered a mantra when it is being used this way (even inadvertently), AND when the individuals using it way are going into, or are actually in, what an MRI, etc. would show as specific changes in specific areas of the brain, and which can now be described physiologically by neuroscients as a "meditative" state.

Of the people chanting, some (but not all) are undoubtedly in this now scientifically described, "meditative" state...which is why it feels SO GOOD (and RIGHT!) to the people who are chanting. They are unlikely to be aware that they are using a mantra, let alone that they have entered a meditative state (which probably nearly 100% of them do nOt know a thing about), but this is--both physiologically and "spiritually"--the scientific truth. (See: HOW GOD CHANGES YOUR BRAIN: Breakthrough Findings from a Leading Neuroscientist, by Andrew Newberg, M.D., and Mark Robert Waldman. Fascinating book, on every possible level, and totally science based.)


>
> And some of our "liberating" efforts come across
> as initiatives to serve corporate interests.
>
> Of course. It's more obvious now (in the 21st-century computer/Internet age), but this goes back at least to corporate business interests in 16th-century Europe, and from that time forwards to our present day. From a macro standpoint, the corporate interests in an industrialized country such as ours can be (and often are) instrumental in not only starting wars, etc., but in keeping various factions of those wars in controlled play so that the interests of the corporation(s) are best served.

Religion and patriotism are both very effective at making ordinary people kill other ordinary people.

Maybe they appeal to people's urge to believe and belong but it's believing in fairy tales and belonging to wherever you happen to be born. Fantasy and coincidence.

The only real bond between humans is family, which has a biological basis. That is why both churches and states are bent on destroying families or at least weakening family ties through taboos and laws.

I've been overseas and came to the conclusion that, although those other countries were fantastic places, home is home and I mostly like it. But I'm not blindly patriotic and sometimes my government scares me.

Patriotism CAN be a religion -- no question about it. And many religions try to hijack patriotism to their own cause. (Mormons..cough...)

"They shoot without shame
In the name of a piece of dirt
For a change of accent
Or the color of your shirt
Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colorful rag is unfurled"

-- Neil Peart (RUSH), Territories

Lots of things can be an "ism" that people can get wrapped up into that kind of mindset.

See Hoffer's True Believer about mass movements. It's not just religion.

The signs include unquestioning loyalty, divisive mentality (us good, them bad), obedience to authority, etc. Of course religions are experts at this but nationalism can generate the same sheep-like loyalty as can other movements and "isms."

Although, I would clarify that much of what this country calls patriotism, is in fact just jingoism.

Okay, seriously, we call so many things that are attacks against us "terrorism". But what about this Staff Sergeant in Afghanistan who calmly strolled out of his base and caually shot 16 Afghanis? He planned it, he shot men, women and children. Is he a terrorist? Absolutely. Will our media call him one? Don't hold your breath...

Ah yes. The old "god and country" B.S.

And isn't patriotism the last refuge of a tyrant ?

One man's patriot is another man's traitor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/2012 01:16PM by Dave the Atheist.

Our country isn't as perfect as I thought it was. The way I see it, that realization is part of the adjustment from my youthful idealistic view to maturity. Accepting reality as it is instead of the way I was taught it was and still wish it was. I wish the U.S. was an example of freedom and human rights, but the fact is that an objective look at our history and current practices doesn't reflect those things. I have to adjust my views of patriotism the same way I adjusted my views of religion, but there are significant differences as well. The U.S. never said it was perfect, while the Mormon church did. I still think that the American system of government is better than most others, even with all the imperfections. The Mormon church is just a parasite that does not produce anything of value.

... against its government.

Can Patriotism become a quasi religion?

Absolutely, especially when (as happened in Nazi Germany in WWII) its ugly twin sister raises her head.

Nationalism is the ugly twin sister. In Germany, it was called National Socialism,(Nazi) but it is the same thing. It is merely a case of patriotism that is taken just a step too far.

I live in Texas. You belong to one of three religions here. The first and most important is Football. The Second is Evanagelical Christianity (any other kind of Chrisianity is just not good enough) and the third is Patriotism.

The greatest commandment is "Do not undermine any of these three religions". The second is like unto it: 'Belong to all three of these religions".