My concern is that he has only been researching for a very short time and, IMO, not prepared at this point to adaquetely defend his position when he will, most assuredly get pressed for reasons for his dissafection. I know he doesn't "have" to discuss things with anyone. But he is a life long member with emotional loyalties to some TBM's and I am sure at some point he will find himself on the firing line. D&C 132 seems to be the big gun in his arsenal at this point which is pretty substantial. Is there any other rock solid slam dunk arguments that you would suggest? He's a really intelligent young man but gets a little shaky and insecure when the intensity of debate rears it's ugly head. Right now he is on a steady diet of Mormonthink and RFM. Thankyou ahead of time for any help given. Wantthetruth

assumes all exmos left because they were lazy, wanted to sin, or were easily offended.

In my opinion it's fruitless to debate someone who is determined to see only one side of an issue.

sorry but none of its is true, I have tried to find something to hold onto but there is nothing but lies and deception the church stinks he should try find a life that offers more truth and meaning...you know the one that the church tells you to seek after...I think the 13th article of faith...In the end his loyalty is to his own concience. come what may...another dirction from GA I think. sorry for your dilema wishing you the best.

1. The fact that the cult continues to violate its own 11th and 13th Articles of Faith when it comes to violating its agreements with regards to baptizing Jewish Holocaust victims and then lying about it;
2. The fact that the cult continues to violate its own 11th and 13th Articles of Faith when it sends out a 50000+ member sales force to tell people that the only way to get into heaven is to apostatize from their present faith and become Mormon;
3. The fact that when the cult gets called on the carpet for violating its Articles of Faith it yells "PERSECUTION!," all the while continuing to violate its Articles of Faith and trying to hide the fact that it does so;
4. The fact that the cult has to be lying about the source of the money for the City Creek Mall, wherein it's now cost $5 billion (US) and it continues to say that the money does not come from tithing;
5. The fact that the cult says it gives more per person to charity ($1 billion US over the last 25 years) while not willing to admit that smaller religious groups give that much yearly.

Just a few ideas.

even if they know nothing about the BoA, they know that there's something wrong there.

that queasy feeling in their gut.

if you return all conversation to BoA, they'll have the common sense to drop it. That's a bad room. No need to go there.

They'll insist that the BofA is very accurate because they once asked a leader who had read Hugh Nibley's works and that leader was successful and smart so what he's saying has to be solid. Or they'll go on about monkeys pissing in sync with the stars and that the apes in facsimile 2 makes sense to represent planets for this reason, blah blah blah, it's so inspired, blah blah blah, it's a neumonic device, Joseph surely was a prophet because he could translate the things that weren't there...

"I fail to see any proof the church is true."

The church has to prove their argument, not the other way around.

He can't argue against "feelings" and "warm bosoms" with facts. His best advide is jusst let go and see who his real friends are.

Book of Abraham was quite the factual clincher for me, but a lot of mos will totally buy the apologetic responses to that one, so it may not be as strong as I feel it is.
If you have not seen the video on it, there's an hour long vid on YouTube somewhere. I think it should show up by googling "book of Abraham" videos. That's one I really hope never gets pulled.

> My concern is that he has only been researching for a very short time and, IMO, not prepared at this point to adaquetely defend his position <

Do you think that he should stay in the church until he is more prepared to defend his position?

If he is on this site and the other you mentioned, it has all the information that he needs...BUT...where the thinking is off center is that anyone who wishes to leave the Mo-Church has to defend their position. That type of reasoning is just more mo-thinking and mind control.

When people realize that you do not have to justify leaving the Mo-Organization, then they will be really free of Mo-Control.

The word is "NO".

No, I do not want to belong to an organization that claims to be what it is not.

No, I do not owe you or anyone else any explanations.



Yes, "they" will discuss all the old tired reasons why "member X" left. Who cares what a bunch of brain-washed morg-bots say or think?

Would it be reasonable for them to be accepting of his decission--hell, no! Mormons are not a reasonable people, and not when it comes to "one of their own" rocking their "tight like unto a dish" boat.

I do not know how young/old your son is, but he has (you) a parent who is supportive...more than most of us had---and we managed to get out; and with all our limbs and teeth!

The same aplies to unwanted encounters with religious authorities who he has grown to trust.
As Dad or Mom, you can support your child by helping him or her to make informed decisions and to be there as a support, including to stand by his side when accosted by hostile elements. As I have had to do, you can stare the Bishop or whoever down and demand they leave your child alone.
Remember- you are the parent and no church has any right to undermine your authority.

Warn your son of the real consequences to those emotional relationships if he chooses to resign. Sounds like he is a big boy now so it is his decision. What he needs is your advice. I would tell him to by all means resign but maybe wait a little while.

I remember lacking confidence in my knowledge of all things in church history and my debating skills. I remember being a little shaky and unsure. Gaining confidence is just a matter of time to process what you’ve learned. Personally for me processing time and information input has given me great confidence. I know damn well I’m rock solid about what the LDS church really is. Today I feel that I could walk right up to DCP, Mckonkie, Mr. Nibley and the Mormon Answerman and say “Hello gentleman. Have a seat and let’s have a little chat.”

Processing time and information input. He will feel so confident given time, that he’ll have no interest in debate. As the fallacious preprogrammed retort from a believer comes across their lips your son will be able to say to himself “I know better”.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2012 10:30AM by AmIDarkNow?.

Many moons ago I had gone completely inactive but I hadn't discovered all the facts yet I was drinking, had long hair, a full beard, and wanted nothing to do with the church. In all my years in the church I was never fanatical about it. I spent probably about half my time inactive and the other half in either leadership or teaching positions. I always spent countless hours studying the church and in reality I studied my way right out of the church.

Anyway, it was during this period of complete inactivity that I was called to the high priest group leadership. I told the guy who came to my home to ask me to look at me. I said do I look like high priest group leader material. He said it didn't matter he wanted me there. I finally told him I would do it as long as I didn't have to shave my beard. He agreed to that so I accepted the position.

As leader of the HP group I had to teach the priesthood lesson the last Sunday of every month and this one day we had a guy who was basically inactive but just happened to be there that day. The lesson was about BY and somehow during the discussion we entered polygamy. This guy raised his hand and asked if it were true that JS and BY had married women who were married to living husbands. I had not heard that at that time and neither had anyone else(that they would admit) so I promised him I would find the answer.

About 1 month later I found the answer and that was the big one for me. I found that both JS and BY had indeed married women who were married to living husbands and living with those husbands and that JS had consumated those "spiritual" marriages in the most physical sense of the word. I got released from my calling and stopped going to church and have not looked back.

After that I continued studying and found many more reasons I should have left that cult long before I did. Some of those reasons I will list. JS stated as the prophet that the B of M was "the most correct book on earth". After that statement there have been just around 4000 changes made to that most correct book. Many of those changes were punctuation and grammar but many of them changed words that changed the entire meaning of that particular verse. You will find in the official church history that the way JS "translated" the book was that gawd would show him a line of text and he would read it out loud to the scribe who would write it down. The scribe would then read it back to JS and the line of text being shown to JS by gawd would not disappear until it was written correctly. In other words, gawd would not allow JS to move on to the next line of "translation" until the one being written was correct. Now, if gawd was this picky about what was written how could there be 4000 changes made AFTERWARDS? That told me a lot about this whole fraud that is mormonism.

Then there was the B of A which is a complete joke.
The first vision. There are several versions and the one that the church stands on now and that GB Hinckley stated was the cornerstone of the church and that the church either stood or fell based on that story was not even written until 1838, 18 years AFTER it supposedly happend, and was not officially published until 1842. You can find references well into the late 1800's and early 1900's where presidents of the church including BY and apostles gave talks refering to the first vision that show they knew absolutely nothing about the first vision as it is today. In fact, in one talk by BY he said something to the affect that god himself did NOT visit a young boy in a grove but sent a holy angel to visit him and restore the church. I can't do the research now to give you exact quotes and references but they are easy to find on google.

Those are just a few but for me they are the nails in the coffin. The problem is like someone else said, people who believe based on "feelings" and emotions will not be swayed by facts. Their cognitive dissonance will kick in and they will simply be deaf to the facts.

It does not get any more rock solid than DNA, which clearly shows that the American Indians are of ASIAN descend.
They are NOt Semitic, as the Book of Mormon claims.

The BoM civilizations never existed,the BoM is fiction.

Your son needs to continue studying the evidence, but should not attempt to debate Mormons at this point. Mormons have an "answer" for every objection. Initially they will have an advantage over your son, who is in the early stages of learning the truth. Ultimately, debating, arguing or explaining things to Mormons will usually be fruitless. It's like arguing with a drunk.

I'm not even sure he should continue studying the evidence. He's learned enough to convince himself. That's what counts. I'd think his time would be better spent on school work, hobbies, girls, being a teenager.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2012 01:52PM by lillium.

Like many other high control groups, mormonism instills a fear of leaving. All of these groups tell their people horrible things will happen to them if they leave. What happened with me and i'm sure most of us is we were afraid on some level. Talking to those still in it is frightening because they are genuinely afraid and it makes us doubt ourselves a little bit and trigger our fears. I say understand what the mind control techniques are and you are on your way to feeling sorry for rather than afraid of those still in it. Way easier said than done though and just takes time imo.

Get "An Insiders View of Mormon Origins" by Grant Palmer. It's a good basis of info.

For a teenager, the simpler the better, you are smart to ask us.

I would recommend the Mark HOfmann selling forged documents to the prophet who hid them on behalf of the one true church--that is the best slam-dunk second to D&C132.

It is rock solid proof that the prophets have no power of discernment whatsoever and that the church pays to bury the truth.

Another easy one is the fact that the church has the rock, the seerstone JOseph Smith used in the hat to translate the Book of MOrmon when it wasn't even in the room. So why didn't the prophet use it to translate the papyri that was given to him by the Chicago Museum?

Yes, the BOok of Abraham is the next easiest, maybe even a tie with the Mark Hofmann.

Teens like present-tense recent modern contradictions over old ones, like there being four versions of the First Vision.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

Anagrammy

What will waiting gain him?

To a mormon, there are never any good reasons to leave the fold no matter how eloquent you are in expressing them.

Resigning now or later will end with the same results. Mormons being offended and refusing to acknowledge any legitimate arguments.

That's what I would teach him about life and dealing with cult members.

That the best personal policy is to "do not engage" do not engage in a debate, do not explain yourself (because that presumes they (as members) are in a position of authority over you and you "owe" them and explanation of your decision, which he does not.

And at the end of the day they will assign him their own truth anyway, he's too lazy to practice the disciplines of the Gospel, he wants to sin or he was offended.

Teach him the truth, their is no dealing with cults, that why he's getting out, they're crazy and he doesn't want any part of it.

Exactly. This is a good time to teach him how to deal with people wanting info that is none of their business, or people who he has no obligation to discuss anything with. This is a skill that will serve him well for his whole life.

When the bish asks "why", the response might be "I discussed the whys and wherefores with my mom/dad/parents. I just came in to give you the courtesy of letting you know I am officially resigning and I won't be participating any longer."

Hopefully the bish will get the hint that the parents are the ones this kid answers to, not him, and let it drop. If he pushes it your son should stick to politely but firmly saying "thanks, but I've already discussed this at length with my parents. Bye now." Then he should leave.

This can also be a valuable lesson on how to recognize what/who you can change, and how to let the matter drop when you know you will have no impact. Otherwise known as picking your battles. This is something I'm still struggling with, unfortunately, and it has negatively impacted every area of my life at one time or another.

I understand he has ties to mormonism, but at 14 he probably hasn't invested all that much time/money into it. It's very unlikely that anything he says will impact the bish or anyone else. And nothing he says is going to change their perception of him, or why he is leaving. I see no good reason for him to get into the position of feeling like it's important to make them understand. It's very unlikely he'll walk away feeling like he accomplished something.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/22/2012 02:01PM by lillium.

I just want to quickly thank all of you for your very thoughtful advise. It's amazing to me how the youth of today(referring to my son) see an intellectual conflict of reason as in D&C 132, KNOW almost immediately that something stinks, and want out, BAMB! And then get out. He has a very strong resolve and solid mind. I am proud of him. Thankyou again. Wantthetruth

Be sure and let us know how things turn out.

We have your back.


Ana

Isn't Joe's sex with married women and 14 year old girls enough reason for him to walk away? Why should he have to say more?

Blacks & PH. For DECADES, they were teaching that it was b/c of the 'Cain-curse of darkness', which, do some, lines up with what's in the Bible.

but NOW, the say: we don't know when or why it started.

Oh SWELL! hundreds of thousands of Blacks - denied/discouraged from joining tscc, 'the only true church on the face of the earth'. Why? WE DON'T KNOW.


got it.

Also got the part that Utah was admitted as a 'slave' territory, got BY's racism, down to M E Peterson's famous words.

O.K.

kicker: our sun gets its light/energy from Kolob.
Nuclear Fusion? NEVER HEARD OF THAT!