I've heard the book, "Guns, Germs and Steel" mentioned a number of times here. What is it, and why is it relevant?

It discusses why conditions in some geographical areas are favorable for the creation of certain factors that give some civilizations an advantage over others.

It traces the migration of human beings out of Africa, points to how agriculture developed--and where--and it represents an incredibly high level of synthesis of the various scientific disciplines that have contributed to our understanding of the rise of our cultures and civilizations as they exist today and existed in the past.

You won't find any evidence of Hebrews sailing to the New World circa 600 B.C.

The biggest hit the BoM takes on this is how the series shows that domesticated animals were not in the new world, and led to serious epidemics that devasted estimated 90% or greater of the native American populations in N/C/S America. (This is the Germs angle)

If they had brought domesticated horses, cows, sheep, etc as the BoM claims they did, then they would have had far greater immunity to the diseases brought by Europeans.

Second hit is the steel argument. The BoM claim they had steel, swords and other weaponry. And history shows they never had these. Steel in the early Americas would have evened the playing field more in battles with Europeans. The Europeans with their weaponry, despite being vastly outnumbered, prevailed through technology.

One minor point. We don't know if they would have been more resistant to European diseases, but the native Americans would have certainly had their own abundance of diseases, with which to infect the Spaniards.

If the model of the crusades is any factor, the invading forces from Europe did not reek havoc using biological "weapons" on the middle east. While they weren't completely isolated geographically, they all had similar stock of domesticated animals. That era poised a lot of plagues and sicknesses, but none of it was on the level it reached in America.

almostThere Wrote:
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> I've heard the book, "Guns, Germs and Steel" mentioned a number of times here. What is it, and why is it relevant?


It completely demolishes the Book of Mormon claims about pre-Columbian America without ever mentioning the Book of Mormon.

Highly recommended testimony-destroyer!

It was a very popular book a few years back. It affected quite a few LDS people, too, apparently. It affected me greatly, I know that. My son gave me a copy at Christmas that came with a Nat'l Geo DVD set, a movie that more or less followed the book. My wife and I were in Congo where we had a Friday movie night with the local LDS senior missionaries, and we showed the DVD to the senior missionaries on one movie night in our house. One of the sisters spoke out afterward against the DVD because it left out the whole plan of the Lord and the Nephites and Jaredites, etc. I knew I had hit a nerve by showing the movie.

I loved the book and its sequel, "Collapse." Jared Diamond is actually an ornithologist, but was really able to make a firm argument about how Europe and Asia rose to the top of the heap and to this day have more than the rest of the world.

From Cambridge University. He undertook ornithology later, and is now an "environmental scientist"; his works on archaeology and anthropology have been published in peer-reviewed journals...

It would not surprise me if some gonzo LDS apologist tried to put down Diamond with that "ornithologist" tag...

Perhaps the closest thing we have to a genuine Renaissance Man these days....

...personal presentations are the epitome of boring monotone.

The guy has written one of my favorite boots and he is very brilliant, but wow! What a boring speaker!

1. Large mammals became extinct in the America's around 11,000 BC. No horses or elephants in the Americas in the BoM timeframe

2. Only parts of Chile and California have a mediterranean climate. Seeds that the hypothetical Lehites would have brought with them would not have "grown exceedingly" except in these areas.

3. Food production and animal husbandry only arose in a few areas of the world, each with their distinctive products. For central America, that would have been corn, beans, squash and turkeys; in the Andes and in Amazonia manioc, potatoes, llama and guinea pigs; in NE America sunflowers and goosefoot. None of these are mentioned in the BoM. The ones that are mentioned (horses, cattle, elephants, wheat, barley, etc.) weren't actually there.

4. No draft animals in the Americas before Columbus. Hence mainly agricultural products that are planted individually (corn, potatoes) rather than large monocultures of wheat or barley.

5. No exchange of cultivated plants or animals between the food-producing areas mentioned in point 3 because of natural barriers like rain forests, deserts, swamps and mountains. Moreover, the north-south axis of the American continent would have prevented cultivated plants from being exchanged because of climate differences (this point is mainly relevant to the hemispheric enthousiasts).

6. The same circumstances in point 5 also prevented technological and cultural exchange between these areas. In fact, there was hardly no communication between these areas. For instance, the wheel was known in central America but not used for transportation because they had no draft animals. Only 1,500 miles south, in the Andes, there were llama but no wheels.

7. Writing was only known in a very limited area in central America. The oldest writing dates to about 600 BC (o joy) but is not related to any old world writing (darn it).

8. Developing metallurgy takes thousands of years because it requires the development over several tecniques which build on eachother. When Columbus arrived, the natives had just developed their first copper alloys like bronze. No iron yet, let alone steel.

9. The Polynesians can be traced to SE Asia by their language, their animals and their culture. Not related to hypothetical immigrants from the Middle East.

It's a good read, I can highly recommend it.

You can stream the National Geographic three-part series on Netflix, also.

Thanks, everyone! Maybe I'll check it out.

It is among my favorites. It seems so logical and reasonable.

The entertaining and fascinating part for me was the way that Pizarro and company were able to 'conquer' the Inca nation. Good read and good accompanying video.

I borrowed this book from my TBM dad. After I read it, I wondered how he resolved the facts presented in the book against what he believes as a Mormon. He doesn't seem affected at all, unfortunately. :(

I love this book. It is such a good read. It discusses why some civilizations are more "successful" than others, how come some could evolve while others seem to never change.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2012 03:55PM by suckafoo.

I enjoyed this book as well.

My only complaint is that Jared Diamond bends over backwards so much to show that race isn't a factor in successful civilizations so much that I found myself saying to myself, "OK, Ok I get it! race has nothing to do with it. Can we move on please?" LOL

But he argues the case over and over and over.

But the book is full of great information.