Why? As a nevermo I can't understand why, if you feel somebody is threatening your religious beliefs, you go on and on about how, i know this church it true, jesusjosephsmithbookofmormonheavenly... I would feel ridiculous if I responded in such a way as to not even acknowledge what the other person said. Like a mental disability is what that is.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2012 06:18PM by brook.

A lot of the reason is that they are trained to do so. I heard thousands of times as a TBM and as a missionary that baring your testimony was such an amazing defense because they would feel the spirit. I heard story after story of "I bore my testimony and they couldn't say anything to that."

Now I realize it's because the other person is thinking: "How do I respond to such inanity."

I just bear my testimony right back at them. I know the church is not true. I feel a peace in my heart and my head that the church is not true. Hah! They never know how to respond to that response.

That's true! A person IS thinking, how do I respond to such insanity! I love it, that's funny.

ronas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I heard story after story of "I bore my
> testimony and they couldn't say anything to
> that."

This is the difference between religion and philosophy

In philosophy if you advance a position you have to have evidence and reason for your position. If the evidence and reason go against your position your position has been defeated.

In religion, however, all you need is belief.

If I say "there is life after death" as a philosophical statement, then I have to give sufficient evidence and reason for that claim. If you have counter evidence or find holes in my reasoning then I must deal with them either by changing my views or else strengthening my argument. If I make the statement as a philosophical statement then I'm advancing a position about the world that I expect you to either accept of refute.

If, however, I say "I believe there is life after death as a precept of my religion," then that ends it. I don't have to give any supporting evidence or reason. I also don't have to expect you to believe at all as I do. "I believe there is a life after death" as a religious statement is a statement about me and my belief more than a statement about reality.

Mormonism used to pride itself on being a "reasonable religion." Mormonism had a lot of arguments and "evidence" that it presented to the world. Proselyting films like "Ancient America Speaks" comes to mind. The many arguments that Mormons make about similarities between something in the Book of Mormon and something in ancient Egypt, or Mesopotamia, or Judea or pre-colombian Americas followed by the statement, "how could Joseph Smith have known XXXXX YYYYY" bring it into the realm of philosophy. They are presenting evidence and using reason to advance their position.

Mormons used to say that anyone who would look at the evidence objectively would be convinced that the Church is true. Basically they were presenting Mormonism as a philosophical truth.

Now, however, that there is so much evidence that works against their position they have to fall back on the religious aspect. Thus the bearing of testimony. At that point in any discussion where they "just bear their testimony," they have left the realm of philosophy--an objective search for truth--and entered religion--a subjective statement of personal belief (which may or may not have anything to do with objective truth.)

Over the decades the falling back on bearing testimony has become more and more necessary for Mormons. Basically they are saying, "I'm not really interested in the search for objective truth, I just like my beliefs." Since they have left the realm of philosophy there is nothing more to be said. They are basically stating that evidence and reason are not relevant since it is a religious belief rather than a philosophical position. Therefore there is nothing for the other person to say. That's why it stops the conversation dead in its tracks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2012 09:33PM by baura.

We have been taught that no one can deny you your feelings so bare your testimony when all else fails. It's all in the programming.

Agreed --

They were presenting Mormonism as factual -- here is the book, here are the maps, here is the archaeology -- all bogus, of course.

It's like plugging your ears and saying "I'm right and you're wrong, I'm right and you're wrong,I'm right and you're wrong,I'm right and you're wrong,I'm right and you're wrong,I'm right and you're wrong,..."

Yeah, how do you respond to that?

"Yeah, how do you respond to that?"

When someone bears their testimony in the middle of a factual discussion I say, "that's not a statement about XXXXX [Book of Mormon historicity, Joseph Smith being a prophet etc.] that's a statement about you. I'm fine with you believing whatever you like; I'm a huge fan of freedom of belief. However I'm talking here not about belief--not about what you or want to believe--but about what's really true."

Lindsay: We can dig up all kinds of treasure!

Buddy: And bacon!

Lindsay: That's ridiculous. No one digs up bacon from the ground.

Buddy: Bacon is delicious.


(Yes, in the game Buddy is vindicated. lol)