I think one of the more prevalent and evil attitudes in the Church is that of "you are either with me or against me."

I was reading the article another poster mentioned, "Beware the Bitter Fruits of Apostasy," where JS said:

“If the Saints in Kirtland deem me unworthy of their prayers when they assemble together, and neglect to bear me up at the throne of heavenly grace, it is a strong and convincing proof to me that they have not the Spirit of God."

So basically, if you don't believe in JS, you ain't got nothing.
Its so disgusting.
TBMs don't see how the attitude of the outside world being fallen and lost encourages them to judge and discard people. That attitude is really what finally drove me to open my eyes and leave.

This part makes me even more mad:
"There is a superior intelligence bestowed upon such as obey the Gospel with full purpose of heart, which, if sinned against, the apostate is left naked and destitute of the Spirit of God, and he is, in truth, nigh unto cursing, and his end is to be burned."

Its just depressing how prejudiced and bigoted people can be without even seeing it.

Its like my mom told me when I left the Church, "I don't think you are a bad person, I just think you are deceived!"

Gee, thanks Mom.

My mom is a wonderful person. She never raised her voice to me in anger my entire life. She was the kind of mom who made me homemade waffles every day for breakfast, but she can't see out of the box. It makes me feel quite hopeless for humanity in a way.

I am willing to set religion aside and befriend Mormons and non-Mormons alike, but I don't feel like I get that in return.

When is a TBM ever going to figure out that the world is mixed with believers and unbelievers and its about time we all got along? Instead of promoting the lovely attitude of "apostate=evil."

It is so hard to not be bitter about it.

It does get disheartening and frustrating. If I try to talk about it much with any believers, I get totally wasted and discouraged.

It's tribalism in our genes, I think.
You have to become aware of it to rise above it, but it is so unfortunately normal and expected of so many people in so many ways... Even small children do this. Grade school cliques turn into bullying the older kids get.

People who approve of this in group/out group behavior however... >:(

It may be "natural" in a sense, but many instincts are, and humans are the only creatures who dare to rise above our instincts. This is one of those things that needs to be risen above.
I do not excuse it anymore than I would excuse a human who dropped trow and took a dump on my front lawn because "the urge was upon him". You hold it until you get to a bathroom, just as you also aren't special for belonging to a group someone else doesn't.
Clumsy comparison, but it makes my point. You have an urge to shun someone or rank yourself above him? Check your ego, it's getting in the way of your humanity.

Jesus said that he despised "fence sitters" and would rather you be on the other side. I can see that. I don't like mealy mouthed, fence sitters either. Take a stance and stay there. Makes for an easier target. Haha.

If you are referring to the "hot or cold" bit, there are other interpretations.

However, The "not with us is against us" or its corollary, "not against us is for us" is Biblical, so take that as you will.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Rallying cries characteristically have an either/or structure. We are wired to become energized from those kinds of calls because they are made when there is an existential threat.

Unfortunately, it is called upon much to often and used to manipulate us.

I suppose one way to interpret Jesus-Not-Raptor's words would be to check the context. He and his followers were apparently expecting God to wrap things up and Palestine was in a constant state of turbulence and violence.

I have always been bitter about just that. The attitude against outsiders that you are taught to have as a member. It is disgusting. You become accustomed to discarding others because you can't give any credibility to their opinions or actions when they differ from those that the church deems correct. Quickness to judge and do so harshly... I saw "friends" as completely alienated from me... I thought they were all the "lesser"... I thought they had nothing to offer or that I could trust... I am so ashamed of how I saw everyone else. If they were smart, I respected them for that, but I still thought I was better than them. I still thought all their problems were due to the fact that they were less moral than I.
NOW I HATE THAT.
I'm sick of hearing my mormon family members refering to others as just not having the whole picture, implying that they, the mormons have the whole picture. They are so lucky to be blessed and it is their responsibility to enlighten the rest of us lost and fallen spiritual peons.

Translation : only ungodly people could be against me.

If God is for us, who can be against us?" Romans 8:28-31



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2012 02:51PM by Dave the Atheist.

You nailed it. You are observing exactly why Mormonism is a cult. Socialogists describe cults and you reported them almost word for word.



outofthere Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think one of the more prevalent and evil
> attitudes in the Church is that of "you are either
> with me or against me."


"Either for us or against us" is a major sign of a cult."

• The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.


>
> I was reading the article another poster
> mentioned, "Beware the Bitter Fruits of Apostasy,"
> where JS said:
>
> “If the Saints in Kirtland deem me unworthy of
> their prayers when they assemble together, and
> neglect to bear me up at the throne of heavenly
> grace, it is a strong and convincing proof to me
> that they have not the Spirit of God."
>
> So basically, if you don't believe in JS, you
> ain't got nothing.


One supreme leader that you follow unquestioningly and bear him "up at the throne of heavenly grace".

• The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
• The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).


> Its so disgusting.
> TBMs don't see how the attitude of the outside
> world being fallen and lost encourages them to
> judge and discard people. That attitude is really
> what finally drove me to open my eyes and leave.

Judge and discard people. Another sign of a cult. They discard people that don't follow mindlessly.

• The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
• The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
• The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

>
> This part makes me even more mad:
> "There is a superior intelligence bestowed upon
> such as obey the Gospel with full purpose of
> heart, which, if sinned against, the apostate is
> left naked and destitute of the Spirit of God, and
> he is, in truth, nigh unto cursing, and his end is
> to be burned."
>
> Its just depressing how prejudiced and bigoted
> people can be without even seeing it.

>
> Its like my mom told me when I left the Church, "I
> don't think you are a bad person, I just think you
> are deceived!
"
• Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

>
> Gee, thanks Mom.
>
> My mom is a wonderful person. She never raised her
> voice to me in anger my entire life. She was the
> kind of mom who made me homemade waffles every day
> for breakfast, but she can't see out of the box.
> It makes me feel quite hopeless for humanity in a
> way.
>
> I am willing to set religion aside and befriend
> Mormons and non-Mormons alike, but I don't feel
> like I get that in return.

• Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
• Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

>
> When is a TBM ever going to figure out that the
> world is mixed with believers and unbelievers and
> its about time we all got along?


It will never happen. They are a cult.

Instead of
> promoting the lovely attitude of "apostate=evil."

• The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

>
> It is so hard to not be bitter about it.

Be bitter. It is a mind controlling cult.

http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2012 03:26PM by No Mo.

Honestly I understand why mormons feel the way they do. If you truly believe in the dogmatism of mormonism, someone leaving the church is a horrible act.

I laugh at how mormons treat leaving the church as one of the worst things you can do in life. I have had some friends I grew up with who became horrible people. One of them has a sister who left the church. Here is this guy who has become a felon. He has stolen identity, cars, and just about everything else. Not that I am personally against drugs, but he has done every drug in the book, dealt drugs and so on.(I bring up drugs because his tbm parents should be against that.) He has done all these horrible things, and more things that are horrible in the eyes of the church. Yet his parents show more respect for him than his very well educated intelligent sister. Why is she scorned by their family? Because she had the audacity to reject the mormon church. The horror!

outofthere Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its like my mom told me when I left the Church, "I
> don't think you are a bad person, I just think you
> are deceived!"

I'd have said, "That's funny. That's exactly how I see it too, except that I see you as living in a box where you're the one who is deceived. And I don't think you're a bad person either."

It's amazing to me how different my thinking is now. I'll have to be careful to stay away from missionaries, because I'm sure I wouldn't be able to resist saying, "Dear, quite frankly, you're too old to be talking to invisible friends."

I probably couldn't help it, because that's how I see it now.