A regular topic here for years has been WHY some folks remain TBM and others eventually see through it and leave.

I don't think it's a matter of advanced degrees or high grades in school which are a usual though not accurate measures of intellect.

I think it's more than that. It's character and the ability to sythesize. It's also the knack of comparing and contrasting and generalizing, being able to come up with orginal rational thought based on both data and human observations. That sounds like gobbely-gook because I've never been able to say it as succinctly as I should.

What do you think? What makes exmos leave when their friends and family are content to continue sacificing personal freedom and intellectual curiosity to stay in a cult?

1. I guess for some there is more to gain by staying that wins out over what they would lose if they left. I think a big hook for my dad is it gave him something to comfort him after my brother died. Hope for having him again someday.

2. They are not personally offended or find things offensive like it does the rest of us. (blacks amd priesthood etc.)

3. They may think (like I suspect my dad does) that somehow it doesn't hurt to stay a part of it.

4. Truly not ready to let the walls crumble and face that they really do not know "who they are or where they come from".


I guess with my dad what it comes down to is the church fulfills many psychological needs. He gets a father, a loving mother, hope for having his son again, it gives him 'brothers', a sense of superiority, of belonging, of being elite etc...

The common thread I see with people who got out of that church is self esteem.

Deep down, very deep down, I liked me. I never felt that there was anything wrong with the real me. That collided with that church.

Not quite as deep down, but almost, there was a bitter war going on inside me that had left me in an emotionally and spiritually exhausted heap by the time I left.

Who thought it would be lucky to be oil when the church was water?
We never really stood a chance of staying mixed.

I had the same problem. I liked me much more than they did.

They didn't want to know me, or understand me. They wanted to control me into being someone I had no interest in being. I like who I am. I think that's a rare event with mormon women. There were a few who set out to make my life miserable. I think the goal of the sp was to 'break' me. Hahaha. He had no idea who he had taken on.

He once said to me, Mia I'm confused. You're so nice. But if you don't approve of something you become so determined.

I still laugh about that. In other words: Your nice. Why do you have to ruin it by having a back bone?

I told him I believed that was the basic stance all mormons should have. Be nice, but stand your ground when someone is trying to manipulate you into doing something that goes against your beliefs. He just shook his head and gave me that "you're hopeless' look.

high five

I had very poor esteem. There was no way of feeling good about myself when I didn't honestly had never been in touch with my authentic core being.

Well, Cheryl, if there's anyone now who will never be accused of playacting I think it is you.

I like so much to hear about anyone who had low self esteem just suddenly grabbing the reins of their life. It is hard to define exactly what happens at that moment, which I guess is exactly what this thread is about and I like what you said in the original post.

I wish we could rewind and watch each others pivotal moments of when the control shifted from that church back to us.

I think the journey begins with the ability to ask a question. Sometimes it's no more complex than "Huh?"

My ex-DH never asked a question in 29 years of marriage. He put one foot in front of another and walked the path others put him on in all aspects of his life. He is a TBM and finds comfort in the conformity.

My questions always terrified ex-DH, but when young son questioned and asked for explanations... it was more than he could bear, and he ran away.

No matter how much they beat me up, I KNEW deep down that my ex was just fine the way he was and that "god" didn't think he needed to change--but what I really needed was to step away from the indoctrination so logic could shine through.

I have and always have had low self-esteem, but I knew it had nothing to do with how righteous I was.

It was just the final "straw." When I stepped away, then I was able to think logically and realize how so many things just didn't fit--especially my marriage.

I find it interesting that now that I actually signed up for facebook (for a specific reason) and my TBM daughter of course wanted to friend me (I wanted her to have her privacy, but she posts so much about mormonism, I get the idea she wants me to read her thoughts)--but one of her posts the other day was about she was tired of people telling her to "shhhhh"--that she didn't have to play the role everyone expects of her. Doesn't sound like a keep sweet mormon to me (and she isn't).

This was a post I made about 4 months ago. Your daughter complaining about being told to shhh....brought this to mind.


I promised

Shuffling along in frumpy white skirts,
Shushing, shushing, down the aisle.
The unknown covenants to a life of hurts.
shush, shush, shuffle, shush, shush.

Tie your bow neatly, then bow your head.
Do as your told, and shush, shush, shush.
Honor, obey, til your heart turns to lead.
Cover your face, and shush, shush, shush.

They called it a wedding, and I was the bride.
Shushing, shushing, shushing, shush.
Hands reaching toward God as if to confide
That was the day I shushed up and died.

Swathed in white silk, like a cocoon.
Keeping dead covenants, shush shush.
I rock my baby and stare at the moon
She cries and I shush her shushhh.

Nothing peeves me more than stupid mormons saying people left the church because they were too weak to live up to the requirements. Whatever. NO. People who leave are stronger than anyone I know. It's the weak ones who know it's a fraud but stay in anyway just to not rock the boat. Being honest and coming out is damn hard. But anyone who values their intelligence, can't stay for long and let it be insulted.

Same with people who think other people left because they were offended. WHAT? If people left for that reason, there would be NO ONE left in the church. Mormons are just offensive by nature. In fact, after you leave, you can't believe that you didn't walk out the door at some of the offensive things that were done or said to you. Why didn't I? Because I wasn't STRONG enough! I was weak and let people put me down and humiliate me and just took it. And I felt like that's just what you put up with for "the truth." Once I was 100% sure there was no truth there, it was not something I would ever put up with again.

It doesn't cut it for me to make excuses for those who stay in forever. Saying they have SO much to lose or they haven't read what's on the internet is the same situation all of us have faced. Yet here we are.

Good thoughts, people! Mia's poem is stirring, and at the same time, it made my blood run cold.

A few hours ago, I watched "A Nun's Story" with Audrey Hepburn--which I highly recommend! My mother gave me that book to read, when I was a teen-ager. My TBM parents are dead, but, in retrospect, I think that they knew we were all in a cult. My RS Pres. mother was very vocal in her complaints when the priesthood took over the RS, confiscated all the money they had raised and forbade the Christmas Bazaar, the bake sales, and all the other traditional fund-raisers. When the Blacks were finally granted the priesthood, my mother cried, and said, "It is a CULT. It is a CULT." My father never wore garments, and he drank tea in foreign countries where this was the tradition, in order to be polite.

I do think education and exposure is key, rather than "intelligence" alone. It is easier to leave the cult, when you live outside the Morridor.

I left twice. Both times, I left because I could clearly see that the cult was ruining my life and our family. I agree that clarity of thought and courage are needed.

I agree about self-esteem. 1. The nun in "Nun's Story" became a valuable person (a nurse who saved lives), who had something to offer. I had to go to therapy and understand my PTSD, and learn that I had WORTH as the sole support of my children. 2. The nun realized that the church was keeping her from doing her good work and fulfilling her destiny. Her Catholic church wanted her to be cloistered in a monastery to pray and meditate, instead of go out and practice nursing. My Mormon church wanted me to be a slave to its rules and callings, instead of go forth in my career and raise my children full time, out in the real world.

The charity work I do now is far more important, and I'm finally building self-esteem. I do not deserve--I'm too valuable--to be abused.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2012 05:09PM by forestpal.