What ...less evidence means it never happened?

What ...being violated by a dick isn't the same as (therefore is less traumatic than) being violated in every other way by a devious, insidious, manipulative abuser?

Abusing language is one thing. I get that. But abusing the victim of a mind-rape by saying "well you could have gotten up and left the room" is a lame defense: according to Spencer W. Kimball and all other Mormon authorities on the matter, the victim of a physical rape could have just gotten up and left the room, too. How is the one justification NOT the same as Spencer W. Kimball's?

Is brainwashing mind-rape? Does the Mormon cult brainwash members, or do you consider all the shit they pull on people just harmless pranking?
http://www.lermanet.com/scientology/mc-ch1.html

As someone who was repeatedly mind-raped by the cult while growing up, please enlighten me - I really want to know what the fuck you think the difference is.

thank you.
I like to call it spiritual rape.

the word rape freaks people out.
as it should.
physical rape is NOT about sex.
its about power. control.
it affects every. single. aspect and dimension of ones life.
Rape can be physical. emotional. spiritual.
whatever term one uses, the violation remains the same.

Let us support one another without quibbling over which "kind" or flavor of rape is worse.
Violation is violation, no matter what term you couch it in.

Let's help each other with love and support, and suspend the judgement.
Because that's really what this is about.

Xyz, thank you for speaking up. I hear you loud and clear.
I got your back, baby :)

I don't think it constitutes rape for one thing.

certainly you can argue about sick cultures, inappropriate expectations, boundaries and other things.

For it to be rape, it would require a mental domination of the victim by the perpetrator of a sort that would require telepathy to produce.

What we have in the case of a temple interview is a cultural domination and expectation of compliance. Offensive certainly and hurtful enough for what it is.

Abuse, sure; rape, I don't think so.

The OP said "like rape". A simile. A comparison.

I can't believe we are wasting bandwidth quibbling about similes.

There. I said it.

What are the psychological near-equivalents of "telepathy"?

How is hardcore indoctrination different from "telepathy"?


Either of these should be productive questions.

They're the only ones who truly know which is worse.

I've never been raped, nor been a member of a cult, so IMO, if you've haven't been actually raped, you don't know.

It's not like someone who has been raped can generalize the experience for all other rape victims and then say whether it's worse or not. Some experiences are worse than others, but there's no reason to compare and see whose is worst. We've all had crappy experiences in our lives. There's no reason to get offended if someone used the word "rape" to describe their feelings about a crappy experience.

rather vocal few on RfM who specialize in downplaying/denying the experiences of others under the rubric of 'keeping things real':
"Oh, that didn't really happen to you."
"Oh, you're just exaggerating that."
"oh, you must be imagining that."

I suspect they were the practicing mind-rapists when they were good little cult doobies...and they have yet to learn to not be one anymore.

I'm sure they could explain the difference to you.

The problem is, rape survivors DID weigh in on the difference in the other thread, and this thread (and the one posted by someone's sockpuppet) were created to shame the people who have experienced rape and object to that word being used to describe other violations.

It's problematic, because the OP seems to think that objecting to the word rape, or comparison to rape, being used for things that aren't rape is some sort of way of diminishing someone's suffering. Violation is violation, and it's terrible and traumatic no matter what it is. But rape is rape, why is it so offensive for rape survivors feel that misuse of that word diminishes THEIR experience?

Frustrating

You can also "rape the land". For example.

I also think what people are objecting to is the OP was deliberately trying to share how violated the process made them feel. To do so, they employed a very strong simile. I.e., "the temple recommend interview made me feel (as if/like) I had been raped.

Who is anyone to question the OPs expression of their own feelings?

I also can't see how rape victims are having their experience diminished in any way. Sorry, but I really don't see it.

Language can be both figurative as well as literal. Insisting on literal usage doesn't just impoverish the expressive nature of language, it is impossible. You'd have more luck trying to re-route the Mississippi River with a shovel.

Everyone has a right to express their feelings. That seems like the point here. My feelings about the use of the word is no more or less valid than the OP who used the word. But why stiffle expression either way?

You can't see how rape victims are having their experience diminished by having morg (or other religions) brain washing described as rape? That one sentence tells me that you are NOT speaking about rape from your own experience.

Asking others to NOT use the word rape for experiences that are obviously NOT rape is not stifling expression - there are plenty of terms/words out there that are used on a daily basis to describe these things, you certainly do not need to co-opt 'Rape' too.

People consent to going to church, a rape victim does not consent to being raped.

The word "rape" is used to describe being "shortchanged" nowadays, it is not acceptable to me to compare crimes that have both physical and psychological elements to brainwashing or other purely mental abuses. If it were the same then the psychological outcomes for victims of brainwashing and rape would be the same, but that simply is not the case.


Being brainwashed in a cult doesn't make you understand rape anymore than it makes you understand what it is like to be black or beat up for being queer. It is a horrible thing to go through the manipulation and psychological abuse, but don't you dare tell me its the same fucking thing when it just isn't. You are telling me, and a one fourth of all women, that you know what we went through when you don't. Its rude. This is on top of all the other shit women get in society for being rape victims, people telling us we must have enjoyed it or asked for it or lied etc. If there is one thing victims of rape need it is to be listened to instead of told about their own experiences by people who haven't gone through it.

In some cases, where both brainwashing and rape are experienced, the two are comparable.

Think about Elizabeth Smart.

She had a few chances to leave, but chose to stay. But was she really consenting?

No. She had been abused and brainwashed.

It demonstrates the power of brainwashing and fear.

However, this is not to negate the impact of what you term as mind rape on the victim.

Brain washed - exactly. Stockholm syndrome springs to mind - agreeing with, and going along with the person/s setting the terms.

Rape - totally without consent whatsoever. There is no 'accidental rape', none of the "No means yes". No consent at all.

Come tell my niece that brainwashing is comparable to her rape -she's only 15 but I know she'll laugh in your face.

Well - I was raped, but it was a one-time event, I wasn't physically injured, it wasn't by a close friend or relative, and I was able to avoid that person afterwards. Basically, it could have been a lot worse. Psychologically, it helped that I was able to outsmart the guy and get away from him. The worst part for me was dealing with all the crap in my mind that I'd been taught from Mormonism about the loss of "virtue". I've had other experiences that were just as bad - the way I was treated while being investigated by the military and the way I was treated by doctors while giving birth were both comparable. I'm sure the experience of someone like Elizabeth Smart would be much worse than anything I've been through. Does saying that I was raped minimize the experience of others who had much more violent and traumatic rape experiences?

I think you are taking this too far, sexismyreligion. You were raped. Whether it was less violent or less traumatic for you, you were raped, so rape is the appropriate word for what you experienced. This is crazy. I figured you, of all people, would know when this board goes too far, considering the times you've been on the end of needless ridicule and bullying.

Just means I had to develop a thicker skin. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily going to have the same opinion as you or anyone else. I've been raped, and I think other things can be comparable to rape. Like elee said, it was a simile. My point is that not all rapes are equally bad, so for some people, psychological manipulation is not as bad as rape, while for other people it is just as bad. I don't want to trivialize the fact that some people have had truly horrible experiences, but I just have to accept for myself that it could have been much worse, and - like any other bad experience - it happened, I've learned from it so I can hopefully prevent it happening again, and I move on with my life. I'm not going to get upset every time someone makes a comparison to rape.

Um, as I said above, the taking it too far was the absolutely absurd suggestion that you calling your experience rape was somehow offensive or wrong to do because other people's rape experiences weren't as bad. I think you know the answer to that incredibly inane question asked just to be provocative. You called it rape. It was rape. (actual) rape is rape is rape, regardless of how YOU deal with it.

If saying that controlling, manipulative behavior is like rape demeans actual rape victims, does me talking about my experience being raped demean the rape victims who had much worse experiences? I understand that other people have had it much worse, but I don't think that should prevent anyone from talking about their own experiences using whatever words work for them.

No it doesn't minimize it. That's idiotic and you know it.

This whole post, and your contributions, smack of censorship. You don't like the opionions other rape surviors (and non rape survivors) put forth about the use of the term, and you are trying to get people to feel wrong and shame them about voicing their opinions about the use of that word. We ALL have the right to our opinions, and we all have the right to voice them. Sorry you take such offence at the idea of people wanting the term rape used to mean the commonly accepted and dictionary meaning. You don't agre? BFD! You don't have to, but don't shame, insult, chide or beat down those who do. It's just another form of censorship and control tactics.

I haven't complained about anyone else's opinions. I simply expressed my own opinion. I'm not trying to shame or insult anyone. If you don't agree with me, we can agree to disagree without anyone having to accuse anyone else of shaming, censorship, or control. If you're so big on definitions, try looking up the meaning of "censorship" and compare it to "disagreement". It's not the same.

Dear Wittyname,

I just wanted to thank you for your bravery and willingness to go to bat on this issue. I'm so sorry for what you have suffered. It was painful to read what you endured. I'm sorry I wasn't able to support you on the board in a more meaningful way. Forgive my weakness.

This will be my last post (although I reserve the right to get sucked in again :). I was very much shamed in the aggressive responses. I don't mind disagreement and sharing opinions but the lack of kindness and understanding was really upsetting. I thought I was further along in my healing, but apparently my skin is not sufficiently thick for RFM.

I am grateful for the law protecting and reserving the actual definition of rape. It's a concept that is shrouded in euphemisms, perhaps to blunt the reality of the unparalleled way in which it has destroyed so many men, women and children. And certainly people have the right to use the word liberally and insensitively.

For me, if there was some metaphysical way, I would do daily temple recommend interviews if I could somehow guarantee that my kids, friends, anyone really, would not have to have pictures of their rape wounds passed around a court room (and I'm one of the lucky ones, I survived). But that's just me.

Take care, Wittyname, I admire your strength.

I do not know the differences with regard to pain and destruction that physical versus emotional things cause. I do not know about the word, "rape" and its exact meaning and definition. But, I know that they are both unbelievably painful, wrong, evil, destructive and sad.