A couple of things. What are you hoping to achieve by visiting us at RFM?

By the way, please be aware that every former Mormon at RFM was exactly where you are now, exactly what you are now.

We were all once good, faithful Mormons. We eventually decided to move on from Mormonism.

Why? Well, may I suggest you check out these links to find out the many and varied reasons why Mormons stop being Mormons?
http://www.exmormon.org/stories.htm
http://exmormon.org/phorum/list.php?3

Please do not be afraid to look. Perhaps you are doubting Mormonism yourself? Don't be ashamed to doubt. Doubt is part of the human condition and is perfectly normal. You can doubt and yet still remain a faithful Mormon.

Ask us questions, but please do remember this is our space. Please treat us with respect and we will treat you with respect.

But it is good to understand the real reasons why people decide Mormonism is not for them.

Were they offended? Probably not. Did they leave in order to sin? That's highly doubtful!

Oh, yeah! Any non-Mormons visiting who just want to learn something about Mormonism from a non-official source? Just pull up a chair, settle down and tell us what you want to know!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2012 08:30AM by matt.

Psych!!

ozpoof Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Psych!!

DOH! You weren't supposed to tell them that! ;o))



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2012 11:32AM by matt.

I am going to assume that you mean a good and faithful Mormon a member of the church, still active, who tries to do good to others and live to church standards, then, that is what I am and definitely I would recommend any member to know everything about the church. Still, as any religion, this one is based on FAITH meaning "whatever you believe", so I think that you can actually believe what you want. Even inside Mormonism members believe different things even exmormons believe in different thing. You have faith in what you want. My search goes beyond any religion; it reaches the belief in god itself. Visiting this site has helped me to understand some things and actually I want to learn more. I have come to the conclusion that everything that can weaken a Mormon member is found mostly in the early history of the church. We depend only on records to find out what really happened in the past. But who can prove the accHuracy of those records or the real intent who wrote them. Faith, faith... As for now i am observing, studying, watching... It has been good to find this site, I like it most of what I read. I only suggest to some posters to place their bad feelings aside. I found many posts tinted with anger, other than that this site has been one of the helpers for my quest.
Sorry if I don't make sense with my response but I'm in a rush to go do something but I wanted to reply.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2012 11:17AM by matt.

>What that means to be angry? To be not happy, yes?

No. That's not a entirely accurate defection, it's not entirely wrong, but there's more to it than that.

Being unhappy does not mean anger.

You can be unhappy because someone you care for was hurt.

But you can be angry with the person who deliberately hurt them.

There is a difference.

With all due respect, this is a cop-out. It is absolute reality that the book of abraham facsimiles are actually ancient, pagan Egyptian funeral scrolls. There is no intent or bias in this - it is fact.

Mark Hofmann sold forged historical documents to the church for thousands of dollars, then murdered two people trying to cover his tracks when he got into things too deep. The two people who are dead because of him are dead, regardless of bias or intent.

The temple endowment changes in 1990, and several other occasions, are fact. My true-blue, convert FIL who is currently serving their second church mission with MIL admitted himself that the blood oaths existed in the endowment ceremony prior to 1990. There are whole paragraphs removed or altered in this ceremony, the (allegedly) most important and critical task in human life - so important, that mormons practice this ritual by proxy for folks that are deceased. Again, these aren't conjecture, these are facts. I just wanted to point this out.

"..I want to learn more. I have come to the conclusion that everything that can weaken a Mormon member is found mostly in the early history of the church." You are very, very correct in this statement. But a word of caution, the more you dig, the more worms you will find - and the most damning evidence is right there on lds.org. This is exactly why intellectuals and over-analyzing is so dangerous to faith - if you think about it too much, you might discover things you really didn't want to know.

We all welcome you and I hope you find data that will either strengthen your faith or evaporate it, but either way you take something meaningful from us here

Im talking about all kind of records, not only church records. I just can't believe any kind of writings (political, medical, spiritual, religious or historical) to have the entire truth. In reality noone knows the facts over history but those who witness by themselves.

Observer, it was current prophets lies and church policies that led me out, not early history.

The church is mainstreaming, plain and simple. Being a Mormon does not mean today what it meant even 5 years ago.

And 5 years from now it will be different again. No more gods and planets, the garments will have no visible markings, and the TRI will be pro forma, as long as you are a tithe payer.

When a stake president tells me to just answer the questions the way I am supposed to so he can sign it, I know it is just about the money.

Good luck on your journey.

Part of what canadianfriend said; "and the TRI will be pro forma, as long as you are a tithe payer."

In my own Mormon experience, that's the way it has always been. I've had many, many TRI where I had confessed everything from masturbation, to doubting the prophet, to even WOW issues. And ALL of them were swept under the rug and I was allowed to get my recommend and enter the temple. All but one that is. Can you guess which one that the bishop NEVER let slide for me? That would be tithing.

What that means to be angry? To be not happy, yes? Expression of anger can be different. One can cry, talk back, act. If you step on a cat's tail, expect it to cry. If you step on somebody's foot, expect him or her to be angry or even to hit you back. When you deceive somebody, and he discovers it, expect 'angry' reaction. Dictatorship violate human rights, and people who recognize it are very angry, but can't do much about it. Just to cry out loud. When you're abused, why you don't feel sad? Does that mean you grow a thick skin?

I was only dragged to church and forced to participate as a teenager. I spent the entire time doubting and questioning and feeling weird and wrong and out of place. So I was never faithful, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. :)

Well, yes, I stand corrected. ;o))

Actually, I sit corrected, listening to some cool jazz tunes, with our African Grey Parrot sat on my shoulder. She is enjoying the music, too. It also has birdsongs on it, underneath the music.

munchybotaz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was only dragged to church and forced to
> participate as a teenager. I spent the entire time
> doubting and questioning and feeling weird and
> wrong and out of place. So I was never faithful,
> and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. :)

Why did you feel those things? Because YOU did something many TBMs never, ever do. YOU were taking the Mormon faith seriously! You were thinking about it, which is what the problem was. TBMs do not think. I wonder how many of them really, truly believe?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2012 12:14PM by matt.

"I spent the entire time doubting and questioning and feeling weird and wrong and out of place."

munchybotaz, I can relate. But what everybody needs to understand is that Mormonism is weird and wrong and out of place, not us.

That's no way to welcome guests!

Here, let me give it a try:

Hi, Kids! The weather is here! Wish you were beautiful!

Timothy

Timothy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's no way to welcome guests!
>
> Here, let me give it a try:
>
> Hi, Kids! The weather is here! Wish you were
> beautiful!
>
> Timothy

Oh, damn, Timothy! You are right. And I forgot to offer them a beer!

Anger is often part of a normal healthy healing journey with anything in life, whether it be Mormonism or something else. The issue is not the anger, but where one directs it and how one uses it.

People need to 'vent' sometimes to relieve steam. Discussing anger in healthy ways often can prevent something like a suicide or self destructive feelings (anger turned inwards) or something like a physical or verbal attack of someone in their life (anger turned outwards).

Anger is often an expression of inner conflict over two conflicting beliefs or desires that one is working to reconcile.

It is certainly understandable that one would feel disturbed by anger towards a religion one is a part of, and at the same time, it is also understandable that one would feel anger over a church that does not reveal information about its history and then has people taking 'vows' based on very incomplete information among other things.

Even Mormon psycholotherapists and social workers often if not generally understand the importance of anger in the healing process and the need to express it vs. implode it.

Happy explorations fellow explorers inside and outside the religious community!

I've heard it said that anger is ALWAYS the second emotion. You have to look deeper and see what emotion caused the anger. I find that this statement is true when I take the time to reflect on my anger.

Am I angry at the LD$ church. Hell yes. Is it just becuase I'm an "angry" person with "anger" issues? No. It is because the church as an entity and the people behind it betrayed my trust. As a convert, they taught me lessons cleverly disguised with sales tactics. In those lessons they cherry picked faith promoting sections of their story. They didn't let me know there were several versions of the first vision that DO NOT AGREE with one another. They taught a plan of salvation that GBH claims he is not sure that the church teaches. Sunday School taught me about Brigham Young but never mentioned he was a polygamist. I went to General Conference and between sessions learned about the Mountain Meadows Massacre but not about Danites and other wagon trains that had been derailed by the faithful Saints. I listen to BYU professors try to talk their way out of racist doctrine. The lies and misrepresentations are too many to recount.

I tried to live my life in relation to the teachings of the church. I chose the clothes I wore according to my secret underwear, even when it didn't make sense for comfort or function. I paid money to an organization that does not account for their spending. I thought I was giving to bless others, but it appears humanitarian aide is very low on the list of priorities. I let myself be dictated by the church to the extent that I excluded the parents and sister that loved and supported me my entire life from my wedding.

So when someone sounds a bit pissed about following the gospel of the LDS maybe you should just entertain the thought for one moment that their "righteous indignation" can be squarely placed on the emotions that caused it. I feel anger at myself for being duped, anger at those that sold me a faulty bill of goods, anger that I have lost time from my life where had I known the full story I would have made different choices. The only consolation is that feeling the feelings is part of the healing. One day I hope to move beyond the great screw over of being converted to the LD$ faith.

This is a great post, Matt - should be made a sticky!

Friendly but matter of fact.

Tom in Paris
jumping about with moderate joy because we have finally got rid of Sarkozy and the Right (after 17 bloody years) but we're still in the sh*t...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/2012 06:58AM by Soft Machine.

who are less well known than their first lady's boobs.

they are very nice, btw.