I had the most amazing experience today, almost unbelievable, certainly unforgettable. I was at the South Town Mall, upper floor of Macy's, entering the mall, and I noticed, in one of the 4 chairs there, sat a grey haired man in a suit and tie that I thought was Tom Perry. I looked again and was sure it was him, but was surprised to find him completely alone, no bodyguards, no one at all even near him. So I approached him and asked if he was Tom Perry, to which he answered in the affirmative. He then asked me my name, which happens to be a very prominent name in the church, and he commented “Oh, so you are part of the such and such family.” I then began this conversation:
Me: I would like to ask you a question, and I want to ask YOU, because I have heard you are a kind, good and honest man.
Him: Of course, what would you like to know?
Me: I want to know why the church is so intent upon hiding much of it's history and changing doctrines over time from it's members.
Him: I have no idea of what you mean.
Me: Well, I really think you do, but if you would like an example I can give you many. Polyandry for instance, why were we never told about that ?
Him: I am not familiar with that word.
Me: Really? You might want to brush up on church history during the Nauvoo period, because that is when it was practiced and it is very unsettling. Polyandry means that a woman has more than one husband.
Him: Well, actually I do know about that ( lie #1 above), but it was practiced on a very limited basis and it is just not of any real importance.
Me: It is to me. And though it's practice may have been limited, the prophet Joseph was the main one practicing it. It is very upsetting to learn of such a thing when you have been a mormon for the entire 50 years of your life.
Him: Well, he only lived it with, I believe, 2 other women. ( lie #2)
Me: No, he actually was married to the wives of 11 other living men.
Him: Oh yeah, that's probably right. ( lie #3)

About that time I saw that a woman was standing near me waiting her turn to talk with him, most likely wanting an autograph, so I walked away. But I did not go far, and when when she left him alone, I once again returned and said, “ I am not finished speaking with you.”

I then proceeded to press him for a few more answers to questions I have, knowing full well he had no answers to give me. I could have asked a hundred things, but these few came to my mind. I told him my brother is a Stake President and there is a gay member of our family, and that our family has been torn apart by the outright dishonestly of those in leadership of the church.
How they lie by their silence. I mentioned the stone in the hat, how I had read an article in a 1993 Ensign by Russell Nelson, in which he had described in one short paragraph the stone in hat translation method of the BOM, but how that has never been spoken of in church and asked why? I said I assumed it did not go over well with the apparent few members that read that article, so they returned to the U and T method. I told him I felt like the liar I was when teaching my eight year olds about the U and T method of translation a few years back, knowing all along how it really had been done.

He told me I should write to him. I said no, I just wanted to hear what he had to say about a few things.

I told him in all my years of study , I never went on line, which is the absolute truth, because of warnings I had been given not to do so by those in authority over me. I told him I read all 26 volumes of the J and D, 7 volumes of J.S. History of the Church, and 6 volumes of B.H. Roberts Comprehensive History of the Church, and that I had learned much that was very new and upsetting to me.

I asked him about the problems with the DNA of the American Indians, and how the apologists are now saying that the term Lamanite was never meant to be a term of heredity, but a choice. I asked how that squared with all the talk in the D and C about missions to the borders of the Lamanites, and why we all had Indian placement students living in our homes many years ago.

I asked about the BOA, why the modern day translations of the papari have nothing whatsoever to do with what J.S. translated them to supposedly say.

I asked him why BKP went to BYU in the 1980's and told all of the English and History Professors to stop telling the whole truth about the history of the church, because parts of it were not faith promoting or useful. I told him I thought members should be told the absolute truth about all of it; then they could decide for themselves.

I asked why GBH went on TV with Mike Wallace and lied before the entire church and world about the “As man is, God once was” thing, how he said: “we don't really teach that , it is just a little couplet”. Why would he say such a thing when it is a very basic teaching in mormon doctrine, concerning the eternal progression of man. I was shocked, but few seemed to notice.

Perry just sat there with his mouth half open. Finally he said, “ Well, there are answers to all of these things.” I replied, “ No, there really are no answers. I have read everything the apologists have to say on these and many other issues, and have come to the conclusion that any person with the capability to think rationally can easily see how desperate they are to cover up these ugly truths; that the answers they come up with are just ridiculous, and that no loving God would ever expect anyone to do the mental gymnastics that would be necessary to believe a word they say.

I then told him that I do not stand alone by any means, that there are hundreds of thousands of people leaving the church because of the lies and the deceit. Finally, I looked him square in the eye and told him I would like to leave him with my testimony, and I said, “ I KNOW, beyond any shadow of any doubt that the mormon church is all a lie, that it is entirely based upon falsehoods and fabrications.” I wondered if he would rise to his feet and try to rebuke Satan from within me. He sat there and said not a word. And then I left. I felt elated. Every word in this story is true, and it was a day I shall never forget, Dec. 6th, , 2010 2:45 p m at the South Town Mall.

I'm pretty much speechless.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 12:28AM by Heresy.

I suspect he was speechless because:

1) he's used to having TBMs fawning all over him. doesn't know what to do with opposition face to face
2) he'd been hearing people are leaving in droves— you were confirmation
3) he fears you were right in everything you said

I'd say I'll look for him at SouthTowne and give him more of the same but I suppose he won't be back soon. And I don't have the balls to give it to LDS like that. I always make nice after ranting.

Good work.

this is Tom,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhSUWHvpev4

Mine Too. What an amazing conversation!

I constantly think about what I would say if I saw one of them in person. I assumed they would be surrounded by body guards and unapproachable.

If I ever seen one of the GAs sitting alone like that, I'll do the same thing. I can't believe you got that opportunity.

Thank you for doing it. These asshats need to know that their con is up, that we know the score.

I hope he goes back to the 12 and reports what happened to him. I hope they all know that their facade is precarious at best.

Good on you!

> I hope he goes back to the 12 and reports what
> happened to him.

I am waiting to see this converted into a conference talk or Ensign article where Elder Perry faced down a man who was possessed of the devil and who tried to make him question his faith, but because of his faith and testimony he was able to stand tall and not waiver in his beliefs.

You probably made him mess his Depends with that last part.

I should try it next time someone tries to pull out their testimony on me.

But in response to his comment to "write to him", you should have reminded him of the recent FP letter telling members not to write to GAs, and that such letters would be forwarded back to the members SP and bishop to deal with.

No kidding, I remember being in church when they read that letter about not bothering the GA's with our questions. I think he was a bit shell shocked, I was right in his face at the end, Maybe he thought I might pull out a gun, he knew I was PISSED!

I find it hard to believe that even L Tom would just sit there and listen to all of that in a public place, or that no one would be near him and try to interrupt what would have clearly sounded like someone harassing an apostle. The story started out ok, but by the end I felt like I was reading something akin to an exmo penthouse letter. I sincerely hope that it did happen, but I you can understand, especially given the tall tales that are often written on this board, that it sounds a bit hard to believe.

You mean you don't believe everything you read? I hope this is true too. This is like everyone's fantasy to have an exchange like that.

I had the same reaction. This "exchange" would have taken much too long if it had occurred and I seriously doubt that L. Tom Perry would have just sat there. My experience with "the Brethren" is that they are extremely competent in moving away from any form of confrontration.

I do not really care what you think, but it is the honest to God truth. My guess is that his wife was shopping in Macy's. I as well was shocked that no one was anywhere near him. My voice was even a bit raised as I bore my testimony to him at the end, and still no one came around , even then. The whole exchange took only 15 min. max I would guess, I was talking pretty fast, and he knew I was mad, and I think he was a little nervous. It was one of the most exciting thing that has ever happened to me. I would post my real name and email on here, but my kids are all true blue and have spied on me. I can tell you this- I used to go by mormonnomore , many will recognize me by that name and know I am truthful,and I have not posted for many months (hope they do not see that, but whatever, it IS THE TRUTH) but I just had to post this because it was so amazing and just felt so darn good! I could not even make up a lie this good, and besides liars are what I detest most.

One more comment: Many of you exmos's know Diane Ormond, Chad Spjut or Jim Whitefield. Anyone of them would vouch for me that this is an absolutely true story. They know me well, and that I would never make this up. I am not a liar. I am pretty sure Perry will get a bodyguard to follow him around next time he is out shopping.

I meant moronnomore, not mormonnomore- I changed my name because I realized some (my kids) would find it offensive. I wish you all could have been there. I cannot sleep at all tonight, I am so wired! This is the best day I have had in a very long time!

And I'll vouch for you. And now that I know this was you, I totally understand why you need to remain very anon, which is smart. And thanks for relaying this story and especially for doing what you did. Those pukes are so sheltered and think everyone of their little minions or former minions just adore them and think they walk on water. They need to know that there are people who know what liars they are and who despise everything they and their evil organization stands for.

think4u Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I could not even make up a lie this
> good, and besides liars are what I detest most.

Well I guess even some Penthouse letters are probably true. I doubt Mr Perry will allow himself to be as accessible to the general public next time he is out at the mall.

Good for you for standing up for what you believe in. It felt so great for me to do the same thing in my exit letter.

L, Tom Perry's brother was my seminary teacher and I was able to meet Elder Perry a few times. I think he is a simple man, who probably hasn't studied too much.

I agree. Very simple minded. He is basically a happy businessman.

You are are awesome think4u.

Congrats for standing up for yourself and speaking the truth!

He's the same age as my grandmother, who asks the same questions many times a day and says the same things many times a day. She does not have Alzheimers or anything. So, he probably forgot what you said 10 minutes later.

Glad it made you feel better though!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 02:35AM by possiblypagan.

Good job, thinkie!

I don't like L. Tom, the big phony...

Just proves that most Mormons prefer a comforting lie over a disturbing truth. Good for you think4u.

Hinckley ABSOLUTELY did disavow the couplet but it was to the print media. Hinckley's Gems to Mike wallace on video in the Ap 96 60 Minutes interview were:

"thats the miracle of it!"

"We're not weird !"

"dont pay any attention to those flicks/ flecks of history"

& we dont want to talk about it (as repeated/ reported by Mike Wallace because Hinckley would not talk about it.

**************************
speaking of Tom Perry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhSUWHvpev4

He also denied it on national Television, but it must have been Larry King's Show. I heard it on live TV when he said it, but must have gotten it mixed up with Mike Wallace.

something to the effect "Don't concern yourself that I don't know doctrine, i know it quite well." then went on to imply that the media had edited what he said to suit their own evil purpose. He said it in conference. Maybe someone will look it up?

In a way, you were representing us, and you did us a big favor!

Yes, I agree that one of the lies was that you could write to him. He was just trying to get you out of his face, like a pesky fly.

At the very least, you were reminding Perry at Christimas time, that he is living a big fat lie, and your points you brought up had nothing to do with Christ.

Some of those old farts are so childish. "I'm not familiar with the word" polyandry. Yeah--right.

I hope you aren't the only one who can't sleep tonight. I guess those old guys have no conscience left at this point.

Isn't it amazing how you can say the exact right words at the right time! Kudos to you!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 03:49AM by forestpal.

to one of the highest LDS INC execs.
I hope you know you vicariously represented many of us
in living out this marvelous work & a wonder that you had the presence of mind & courage to bring about.
(& you are not even asking for any offering money in the aftermath!)

Remember that once Monson dies (assuming that he outlives BKP), L. Tom will become President of the Church...

OMG! That is such an incredible story. Thanks for sharing it.

Kinda weird that you keep calling him "Tom Perry" instead of L. Tom Perry which makes it kinda hard to believe you honestly.

I refer to NONE of the GA's EVER by that special initial they all use. Think about it, what is it about? The Desire for Respect: I believe it is just one way they want to distinguish themselves as different and better than and certainly a step above other people. Who else does that? Dallin H. Oakes, Russell M. Nelson, Boyd K. Packer, Gordon B Hinkley, L. Tom Perry, every single one uses that form of their names and I refuse to respect them in that way. You will notice in one place I simply refer to him in writing as Perry, and I never referred to him as ELDER anywhere in my conversation with him. When I first approached him I asked , "Are you Tom Perry", not Elder L. Tom Perry. They will never, in any way , get my respect.
I find it very interestng that some of us who dispise their lies are so very suspicious of one another lying on this board. I guess some do lie here, I never have. Believe what you want.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 07:59AM by think4u.

I actually take the same approach when referring to them. The middle initial is another layer of Mormon ass-kissing that I left behind when I resigned my membership. I don't give these men that extra dose of respect that they have come to expect from the faithful.

It seems there are doubters regarding this claim. I guess for some, that comes after years of being lied to in the Church and some subsequently have doubts about everything. Be assured – this poster is real and honest. She (not he) is a good friend of mine and you can be assured that anything she claims will be as accurate as it is true. She despises lying and would never lie about such a thing. She knows the people she claims to know and we trust her and her word implicitly. She is quick witted and intelligent – I doubt many people could have had such a conversation off the cuff. What a star!

Jim Whitefield, author of ‘The Mormon Delusion’. I spoke at the Exmo Conference in October. I have known this lovely lady for some while and also spent time with her at the conference. She is as real as they come.

anyone can post anything on the internet. I am assuming the poster has some sort of proof of this encounter? maybe a cell phone photo? maybe verification from Perry's office that an exchange took place? until there is proof, I call bullshit. So many people WANT an exchange like this to take place that they gullibly believe a random poster on an exmormon message board.

I call your accusations bullshit, and if I ever have such a wonderful experience again, I will certainly not share it here. You might want to read the post ahead of yours. There are people in this world that are truthful and I am one of them, You are most likely a coward that would not have had the courage to do what I did. Actually, you sound jealous that it didn't happen to you, and I don't gave a damn if you believe me or not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 09:19AM by think4u.

I remember you. I believe you as well. Your reputation is solid over here. :-) And wow! what an opportunity! So jealous!

You quoted Perry as saying: "it is just not of any real importance"

This is the key to his (and the other GAs) position - and response - to any factual criticisms or unpleasant truths about the church. After you left him, what you said to him probably stayed in his mind for a couple of minutes, and then drifted off into nothingness, because "it is just not of any real importance."

They decide what is important, and they don't want to - and will not - talk about anything that would be uncomfortable to them.

We've had some good threads here, but nothing quite like this.

This whole recovery process is about belief. Some of us currently refuse to believe anything that does not meet our own personal standards of truth. I mean, we were duped for so long; asked to believe so many stupid stories. Now, we love proclaiming disbelief. We spend so much time announcing to others our reasons for not getting fooled again.

And we get so angry with each other.

This is why honesty is so important. This is why deceit is not for our own good. Once we realize we've been tricked, we refuse to trust anyone.

I believe you. You have total credibility with me. I have absolutely no reason to doubt any thing you write.

I have followed your story since you first appeared on the scene here. I remember you were having a very rough go of it last Christmas and I wished there was something I could do for you besides post a lame keep-your-chin-up comment. I also have thought a lot about you since you posted about the baby earlier this year. I really hope that things are more bearable for you these days.

It is great that you checked back in---and with such an apropos experience!

OMG! You do remember me. Last Christmas I was so down and posted something about "With no Jesus, what is left to celebrate?" I had also come to a point with one grown daughter that was unbearable, and so I had to withdraw from her life for a few months.

That baby died August first. My daughter blames me for her death because I did not have enough faith ( in mormonism) that she would live. She no longer speaks to me, but it is better with my other 4 grown kids. I am the woman that has bragged (I know, very bad) on occasion that all 3 of my sons have their doctorate degrees, and they do. That sounds pretty unbelievable as well. But sometimes amazing things happen and this experience ranks up there at the very top.

It has been a rough year, but I am still flying high from my what happened yesterday afternoon. Honestly, it took more courage than I thought I had, but something deep within pushed me do it, and I am so very glad I took the opportunity. Thanks for remembering me, and for your trust. I would never, ever lie.

and thank you for your brave 'testimony bearing' :-)

jim whitefield wrote:

> She is quick witted and intelligent – I doubt many people could have had such a conversation off the cuff. What a star!

i'll second that! well done!

You gave your famous family name to Tom Perry and went on record with him about your apostasy. But you're not going to let the apostate support group know who you are?

Why not?

The reason I keep anonymous as possible is because of my 5 grown TBM kids in their thirties. I am afraid of losing them totally. The thing they hate most about me leaving the church is that I resigned officially and have a couple exmo friends, when the truth is I never even post any more, because I am pretty much over all the anger I had upon learning the truth years ago. They see me as anti mormon with anti mormon ways. They have spied on me on this site, even gone on line and listened to words I spoke at the Friday night open mike session at the ex mo conference of 2009. You can probably listen to that if you like, I believe I said my name on there because I forgot they were filming for the world to see. And I remember I opened with some joke about "Oh my, I have a burning in my boobs"- big laugh.

If they happen to go on line and spy today or any time soon, they will recognize me most likely, I have already said too much. Some of them have gone months without speaking to me. I know I am taking a chance, and I am just hoping they see none of this. I am alone in this world. My one daughter will not ever let me be with her children. If they find out I called out a "Prophet of God", I doubt they will ever speak to me again. However, if anyone wants to give me their email address, I will contact you directly and let you know exactly who I am. I am not actually from the family he assumed, I just let him assume that. I married into a family by the same last name as someone very high up in the church way back when- either a GA or temple pres., not sure which. Here is a hint. A. Ray ------, and people have asked my about that connection my entire married life. I am no longer married, he has remarried a TBM lady, but I still carry his name. When I left the church, he wanted nothing more to do with me. His loss, I'm pretty okay!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 11:42AM by think4u.

I am very impressed with how you managed yourself! I think that had I had your opportunity I would have felt overwhelmed with where to start. I am glad you brought these things up to him.

I suspect that he knows very little about the church he is involved with. Being important and respected has brough him happiness and feelings of achievement. I would imagine that no leader of any organization would want to understand that their reality is just an illusion.

I suspect he won't bring any of your conversation up with anyone. He probably went home and took a nap. When he goes to his next meeting he will follow the agenda.

If this happens with more frequency, and perhaps it will with more leaving the Mormon church, then our problems with having been raised to believe deceitful claims will become important with church leaders.

I bet at this point, these rare encounters are easily brushed off by people like Perry et al.

But it must have felt really good to you to be able to say all those things!

Very impressed!

You are the type of person I would love to meet someday. If every GA would meet someone like you and be confronted daily like this then we would see a change in the church. Maybe the leaders would be more honest if they had to be accountable.

The difference between you and me is that I would think of doing what you did, you actually did it. Great job! Don't quit posting because a few don't believe the story, we've just been conned too many times. You have proved your credibility.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2010 09:57AM by steve benson.

Good for you!

Most of the GAs are probably wily, but not intelligent. They may have some ass-kissing skills, plus an alarming ability to compartmentalize, but they are not truly intelligent.

Some of them may have started life with the potential to grow into intelligent adults, but that potential was actively suppressed.

Many mormons have been told, "there are answers for these things," and that's an easy phrase for them to believe and to repeat. They think "experts" have written cogent replies, but that those replies are nothing they need to read. After all, only apostates and doubters need to waste their time that way. And if they do happen to read the convoluted mopologist writings, and they fail to understand them, that's because only "experts" can understand them.

The bottom line is that GAs and not intelligent. They prefer their sheeple to be unintelligent as well. They are breeding docility. They are restricting the reasoning power of human brains.

They should all be bearded in the mall.

I was chaperoning a youth group trip to SLC and Perry was walking down the street and saw one of our groups of youth (had matching t-shirts). He was alone -- no bodyguards -- and came over and engaged the group, asked where they were from, etc. The kids ate it up and he was genuinely friendly.

So, I don't think the 12 have bodyguards regularly, although I think Packer has a driver and probably a nurse (at this point in his life).

I saw Tom Perry at the Salt Lake airport once - he was with his wife and in civilian clothes (not a suit). Other than his wife he was not walking with an escort or security entourage.

Bruce McConkie came and spoke at our stake conference once and drove himself. No security.

I am wondering: What was Perry's attitude at all the facts you were throwing at him: Surprise? Confusion? Frustration? Disbelief? Patience? Annoyance?

When you told him "...there are hundreds of thousands of people leaving the church because of the lies and the deceit..." did you feel like this registered at all? Or did Perry just look blank?

Viva la Revolucion!

And bravo to you for being so bold with the truth.

Like my mom, now if she had a chance like that, she admits she'd get all tongue-tied and would not have the paws- I mean poise- you showed, and she'd spend a big old amount of time kickin herself later on. Me, I'd just tuck muh tail under and hide someplace, y'know?

Plus like somebody here said, mos been lied to so much it's like hard to recognize truth. So don't let it throw ya.

I believe ya. I gots a nose for such things.

Yer pal,
Reggie
The StalkerDog™

I don't know if you are man or woman but truly you have some steel cajones! That was an inspiring post and I envy your bold tenacity to do it.

I don't agree with those who say it didn't really happen, I believe you and I applaud you. Way to go keep up the good work!!!!!!

"No Shit Sherlock"

Those guys know it is a farce just like the CEO of McDonalds knows their food is lousy.

You did a good thing, but he is still laughing all the way to the bank.

wow..just...wow