Some of them are more reasonable and less cultish than others.

JWs, Moonies, and mormons vary but are in very controlling cults.

I'm not in any religion, but I do respect those who find comfort and enlightenment by contributing and attending mainstream less-cultish churches.

On Sunday I enjoyed and Advent concert at a nearby Catholic Church where their chiors and those of five other denominations joined together in song. Those attending were just about like me except that they believe in Jesus and Bible. But they don't coerce members to pay a full 10% tithing and don't have rules about mandatory attendance and service, required public speaking or underwear. As far as I can tell, none of them assume that everyone is damned to lose their families if they're participating in any certain church.

I have a measured respect for these churches but none for the mormon church.

and you can google the characteristics of a cult, and a mind-control cult, if you want to make that distinction. The churches Cheryl named fit in the second category. It's not her definition, it's the definition of experts on the subject.

And anyway, her main point is also correct. Not all religions are created equal and you know it. Didn't Bryan David Mitchell think he was starting a religion? I can respect a good Catholic and a good Atheist equally because both those sets of beliefs and everything in between, benefit the person who believes. In Mormonism, the main benefit is to the organization. In other religious traditions, the church is there to benefit people, spiritually and physically. In Mormonism, you are there to benefit Mormonism. I don't have to respect any church or belief system that exploits people to benefit themselves.

even a "mainstream less cultish" church like the Catholics, who are so mainstream they spread false information about contraceptives in areas ravaged by HIV/AIDS, consider homosexual behavior to be unnatural, and drag their feet on dealing with rampant pedophilic activity among their leadership.

I need to respect other humans just because they are human.

I need to respect their right to make their own choice.

I do not need to respect the actual choice they make, only that they have the right to make that choice. That right does not mean they are free from consequences, including my reaction to their choices.

I do not need to respect the institutions that those people create.

As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, I was raised Atheist and never went to a Catholic Mass until I was an adult. I almost could not keep myself from laughing out loud. I said it reminded me of a cheer we did at our high school foot ball games... "Lean to the left, lean to the right, stand up, sit down, fight, fight, fight". Seriously, to me the Catholic Church looks like a cult. Maybe not as strong as of mind control as other cults, but the absurd things they get people to do, wow.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2010 11:06AM by MJ.

Have you ever known anyone in a cult who called it a cult?

Pay Lay Alol

Not everyone belongs to a cult, um I mean religion. Some of us have never belonged to either.

If you have never been in one then why are you at a recovery from mormonism site?

The basics are, I investigated religion for years trying to figure out what all the hubbub was about. In particular I investigated TSCC for about 3 years. NEVER did I believe or join any of these religions. I did, however come out of it with some nasty cult programing from the LDS. I did believe much of their claims about how good TSCC was along with many other things that negatively affected my life.

The above is one reason, the other reason is, I do now live in Utah, and because of that, I need to recover from Mormonism and how it impacts my daily life.

Is that good enough for you, or are you going to vote me off the Island?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2010 11:17AM by MJ.

Just wanted to know the motivation behind what you said. And in case anyone is not interested I am going to tell you anyway. I was a member for 40 years before I figured it out. Was an eqp, a veil worker, did my home teaching each month, taught Sunday school, etc etc etc.

In the church I attend (and it is because my wife said when we left Mormonism that we had to attend some church) we have this thing called dinners for 8. Four couples get together once a month for dinner. And we never have talked religion. Its all about family and trips and what is going on in the community and world.

Cults are really the same as "benign religions". The end result is the same for both: They're selling an invisible, nonexistent product.

The difference is the technique cults use to sell the product is a little more aggressive. That's all. Why should we give the more gentle salesman a pass when the product is worthless either way?

This thin line of technique is so blurred across the religious spectrum, that it begins to matter less and less the more one realizes that the end result of getting nothing for all you give is pointless.

What do I mean by the invisible product?

One is asked to believe in an undefinable god, in the unreachable reward of heaven and the feel-good psychobabble contentment of now based on love of an invisible being.

If I were to say I am selling you something in Brooklyn, but I can't give you pics, a complete description or any details, but the promise that for 10% and your free time, you won't be disappointed, would you buy it?

But I promise you. It's really really good.

The only benefit a rational person might see from religion is validation of being a good person. You can get that without all the invisible baggage by just living a good life and spending your time on real things that bring real products and tangible benefits.

Just as a pre-amble, I am an agnostic tending towards atheism. I'll play a little devil's advocate.


Jesus Smith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cults are really the same as "benign religions".
> The end result is the same for both: They're
> selling an invisible, nonexistent product.

Are they? Completely? Do they instill hope in the hopeless or help to those that need help?

>
> The difference is the technique cults use to sell
> the product is a little more aggressive. That's
> all. Why should we give the more gentle salesman
> a pass when the product is worthless either way?

I would say the difference is more in how they treat their members and what they impose upon them. Yes, they lie and mislead to get people in but the control exercised after the fact is the worst part.

>
> This thin line of technique is so blurred across
> the religious spectrum, that it begins to matter
> less and less the more one realizes that the end
> result of getting nothing for all you give is
> pointless.

Hmmm. I give to a church. Time and some money. But then I know where that money goes. I look at the books monthly to see how much is being given to local homeless shelters, food kitchens and other entities that help people that need money. And I am happy with what they give and do. They are also active in the environmental movement.

If it was simply just the belief in an invisible sky-daddy I could agree. But there is more to it in many churches.

>
> What do I mean by the invisible product?
>
> One is asked to believe in an undefinable god, in
> the unreachable reward of heaven and the feel-good
> psychobabble contentment of now based on love of
> an invisible being.

Depending on the religion it is belief and action in loving one's neighbor and taking care of people. The reason I go to a church is the social interaction. Even though I don't believe in their sky-daddy.

There is an evolutionary element of the need to belong that is still in place in many individuals.

>
> If I were to say I am selling you something in
> Brooklyn, but I can't give you pics, a complete
> description or any details, but the promise that
> for 10% and your free time, you won't be
> disappointed, would you buy it?
>
> But I promise you. It's really really good.
>
> The only benefit a rational person might see from
> religion is validation of being a good person.
> You can get that without all the invisible baggage
> by just living a good life and spending your time
> on real things that bring real products and
> tangible benefits.

That works for you. It does not work for all people. There are some people that require the structure of a religion to live thru their life. Unfortunately some need to be told to be good and that they will be punished if they aren't. So it is great that you don't fit in that category, but not all humans do. For whatever reason, we evolved with a need for deity. Some humans have evolved past that and I would love to see a day where there was no religion except in history books. But that isn't the case.

Gwylym Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just as a pre-amble, I am an agnostic tending
> towards atheism. I'll play a little devil's
> advocate.

Okay, I see your point. I'll raise you by just posting the message via youtube, ala Richard Dawkins.

"Respect for religion enables..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXHJ-hLjuxM

I happen to like Dawkins but he is a militant atheist. He is as far to the left as the fundies are to the right. Just harping on how bad religion is (I love the Virus of Faith video btw) does not help. Because of his militant nature many people will ignore him. If he went about "preaching" in a less offensive manner more might listen.

added: This is my personal opinion. If you don't like it tough shite.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/08/2010 11:42AM by Gwylym.

Instead of your vague generalities you can give specific examples.

Putting words in people's mouths? I never said I hated Dawkins. I actually enjoy watching his videos and reading his books. I thought the God Delusion was quite good. I just am of the opinion that he is about as far left as you can go. I do happen to agree that in many instances religion is detrimental. To one's health as well as stifling one's reasoning faculties.

And what kind of meaningless term is that ?

Is it true that you are a dittohead ?

Well is you knew anything about politics you would know what references to left and right mean especially when talking about the religious right. So I'll explain it in small words so you can understand.

On the spectrum of belief in God. Oh, you know what spectrum means right?

The subject of right vs left in this arena puts the hard core fundamentalist believers in God on the far right and the atheists on the far left. Dawkins in my estimation and in others who I have personally spoken with put Dawkins on the far left.

That does not make him a "bad" person. It just indicates where some would place him on the believe in God scale. I am left of center. I suppose true agnosticism would be dead center. Perhaps?

I happen to believe that being militantly atheist is not near as damaging as being militantly fundamentalist. Atheists look to science and to exploration of the universe around us. Fundamentalist put their belief the their scriptures ahead of all else. They also stifle the ability to reason and think critically. So in my estimation it is better to be a militant atheist than to be at the far right.

There will probably always be people who will glom onto some charismatic leader to their own detriment. Doesn't matter if it is a religious leader, a political leader or an actor or singer. Hopefully humanity will evolve to the point that these type of people are "edited" out of the gene pool. But I don't have uch "faith" in that. We'll probably kill ourselves off before it happens.

maybe you can tell that to all those followers of Jim Jones.


.... oh, wait ...

I can only speak for myself, but I could deal with things much easier if my wife attended a non-denominational Christian Church instead of the Mormon Church. Even as an Atheist myself... it would be much more tolerable.

At least then I would not have to deal with her wearing garments all the time, I would not have to deal with her using my money to pay the mandatory tithing(finally I put my foot down and said she can only pay tithing on what she makes from her own job), and I would not have to hear about how wonderful Brigham Young and Joseph Smith are! She claims her beliefs are already centered on the Lord Jesus Christ, but I know that is bullsh*t because she talks to damn much about Joseph Smith for that to be true!

Less cultish religions don't work at breaking up families.

I have faced this situation and realize that many humans need religion in their lives. My hope for them is that they'll choose one wisely.

So, it may just be wise of us to show support for the religions that bury the needle a little bit less on the bats**t-crazy-ometer. Doesn't mean we have to like it, or think those religions are actually useful in any way, though.

Leaving aside the idea of what is required of us as people, your point is obviously true: not all religions are equally abhorrent. You'd have to be a very injured human being to pretend that being a Unitarian is the same as being a Moonie or a Mormon or a JW.

But the good news is you enjoyed yourself at an Advent service and noticed that everyone attending weren't very much different from yourself, but were different from the Mormonism with which you were brought up.

There's a nice feeling in the air when local denominations join together around Christmas with song and good cheer. It reminds us of what religion use to do for us as a culture, bind us together with community and a shared desire for each other's well being. That is religion at its best, and it still has its place.

Cheers.

Human

The range is wide and blurred, just like comparing more or less cultish religious organizations.

Does anyone have to seek out expert opinion before deciding which is which? NO


Is anyone required to respect one and not the other? NO

It's a matter of what suits the individual or the family. Some families have never been to any kind of eatery and don't see a need for it. Others only like one kind or another. But if a family feels a need to eat out every Sunday, I would hope they would select a place that isn't dangerous and doesn't make anyone sick.

Face it. Some people need and want religion in their lives, but let's hope they don't choose one that makes them crazy and incapable of living a happy productive life.

I think there are some people who might actually need Mormonism. They need to be told what to do and to be kept busy. Is that healthy? More than likely not.

Would I like to see religion go away? You bet.

Actually, Catholics have rules regarding attendance. They are required to attend Mass every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. If they miss one, they are supposed to confess it as a sin. There are still a lot of Catholics who believe that other Christians will not go to heaven, but I think that is left over from the pre-Vatican II days.

I fully agree with the premise. Religions have gotten by for millennia with a philosophy no more substantial than, "we are a church, we speak for God: you _must_ respect us, and _must_ _not_ criticize us".

That era is over - long over: even the Pope has found that out (twice, in this century already).

And there is the more basic question: what criteria must an organization exhibit before it can legitimately be considered a church?

Can any shit-for-brains bumpkin anoint himself "prophet" and start a "religion"? So far, yes ...

lol, love your last sentence.

And yes, even hacks that write bad science fiction can start a church and make a lot more money than they could writing.

Just have to have some unseen and unsubstantiated thing to believe in.

and the thread you are following goes from 3 to 30. LOL.

The point should be that you respect people, organizations and belief systems who benefit others and do good in the world and have integrity.

You don't have to respect people, organizations and belief systems that use, abuse, take advantage of others and damage the world. No one is "entitled" to respect because of their religion, their education, the amount of money they have etc. You have to have enough respect for humanity to allow people to choose for themselves but you don't have to think their choices are worthy of respect. People and religions make bad decisions all the time and you don't have to respect them for that, even if you have to allow people to make their own mistakes.