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Posted by: seeker1 ( )
Date: May 29, 2012 05:22PM

My take on heroism...

Nobody is a hero until they DO something heroic. Too many people in the service, LE, and firefighters; tried to cash in on the goodwill of America after 911...a few justifiably, most not.

I know several single mothers who are heroic, for example, because they nearly kill themselves trying to provide a good homelife for their children, despite working two jobs at low pay and getting by on little sleep. They would all modestly deny they're heroes...just doing their job.

I salute all our soldiers and veterans who serve from a genuine desire to help protect our country.

Politicians, on the other hand, who create wars to "save face", or to roll out the profit-making war machine for their campaign contributors, deserve to break rocks in hell.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: May 29, 2012 06:11PM

US patriotism in 2012 will require praising the gov't. for armed drones in the sky and active, fully-weaponized US and foreign military in the streets.

Of course, with liberty and justice for all.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: May 29, 2012 06:18PM

from the previous thread:

dimmesdale said:

"Re: Thoughts on Patriotism and Mormonism

I cannot tell you how vicious and hateful this very board became toward those of use who protested the invasion of Iraq.

That's why the politics ban was instituted.

Obviously this board has morphed (evolved) as has the 90% of the population at the time who cheered on that war.

A little disconcerting.

Wonder what it will take to get everyone clammoring back to another war. Probably not much.

And, yes, I'm still a little bitter about it all."

I remember, dimmesdale. Strange days then, for sure. And more than "a little disconcerting".

And the war clamoring is still going full tilt. Propaganda is pushing hard for more invasions. Will 2013 be a repeat of '03? Likely, but with much different results for us all.

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Posted by: Don Bagley ( )
Date: May 29, 2012 06:40PM


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Posted by: Naomi ( )
Date: May 29, 2012 09:04PM

How about when it's close enough that you can't hear afterwards?

You don't know what the f**k you're talking about.

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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: June 01, 2012 09:30AM

I say support the troops but not the war...

just sayin!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 09:49AM by bignevermo.

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Posted by: Helen ( )
Date: May 29, 2012 06:57PM

Vote for the Mormon who wants to bomb Syria and you'll have a war.

I wouldn't vote for Romney Mormon or not.

He is an empty suit.

A Mormon in an empty suit.

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: May 29, 2012 07:38PM

Just for the record, I opposed invading Iraq from the moment it was proposed, and I oppose war with Iran.

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Posted by: foundoubt ( )
Date: May 29, 2012 07:17PM

I always remember when some politician gets up and starts a spiel
About patriotism that patriotism has an ugly twin sister called Nationalism. Think pre war Germany to see where that goes. Patriotism is fine and dandy, but it is a very fine line between the two.

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Posted by: DebbiePA ( )
Date: May 29, 2012 09:39PM

I went to our small town's Memorial Day observance on Monday. I always go. I love my town, and I'm proud of our veterans. I also had a sister who died in a car accident 30 years ago while serving as a Marine in California.

It was a nice ceremony, and one of our hometown boys who is pretty high ranking in the army gave an inspirational speech. However, like every other Memorial Day observation, it was wrapped up in faith and god and reliance on the guy in the sky to watch out for our military.

I'm an atheist. While they're all thanking god, I'm thanking the REAL people who are actually in the military, or those who are gone who fought and even died. I can be proud of my country, and as patriotic as the next guy without believing in an invisible man. America is great because of its people and their actions and sacrifices.

And by the way, Mr. Skydaddy, where were YOU when my sister got nailed by a pickup? She loved you, but I guess it wasn't mutual.

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Posted by: honestone ( )
Date: May 29, 2012 09:55PM

Debbie, I too lost a sister to a careless driver -35 yrs. ago. I never blamed God for it. God never said we would have no pain in our life or no suffering. Maybe that is your Mormonism creeping in. They do those things, huh? I think attending the service like you did and enjoying it as you did is a wonderful thing. Let those who are religious say what they will. You can just dismiss that part if you like.

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: May 30, 2012 09:25AM

... you need to allow the non-religious their voice.

As I mentioned in the other thread, freedom of speech, among other things, is what our men and women in uniform are sworn to protect.

Its a two-way street. Religion, by law, does not get a free pass.

Timothy

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Posted by: DebbiePA ( )
Date: May 30, 2012 10:24PM

I'm not blaming god, because there isn't one. I'm actually pointing out in a sarcastic way that belief that the imaginary being will watch out for our loved ones is pretty pointless. Bad things happen.

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: June 01, 2012 07:08AM

... on September 11th, 2001 pushed me over the edge.

I don't blame god for the events of that day which caused some people to jump from a building to their death to avoid burning to death because god doesn't exist. However I do blame religion and the zealots who blindly follow it which would include those who defend it.

No atheists in foxholes? ... Won't find 'em in no terrorist training camps neither.

Timothy

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Posted by: Drew90 ( )
Date: May 29, 2012 10:49PM

I like this one. Bob Dylan also sang it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXS1GunoXoo

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: May 30, 2012 03:43AM

Bob sang it, and he wrote it. Bob wrote "Masters of War", and also "With God On Our Side".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/2012 03:47AM by hello.

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Posted by: Carol Y. ( )
Date: May 30, 2012 03:50AM

And the government doesn't give a sh*t about him, or the other maimed vets. They care about using up our youth to occupy all seven mid-east countries, eventually.

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Posted by: Naomi ( )
Date: May 30, 2012 09:32AM

Where did you hear that crap about "using up our youth to occupy all seven mid-east countries"? Not from that young veteran.

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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: May 30, 2012 02:18PM

What planet do you live on, sexy? Helen Keller World?

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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: June 01, 2012 09:54AM

at least thats what i have been reading...and it looks like to me that she was just pointing out that fact...not "using" him to promote any political views sir.
just sayin!

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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: June 01, 2012 10:37AM

The government cares, but the VA system is struggling to deal with everyone coming back. There is a huge number of injury claims. Vietnam vets are still filing claims and now we have Iraq War vets and vets coming from Afghanistan to take care of. Many families of these vets are also needing help, and the economy is bad. We are seeing more the cost of war.

"War, what is it good for . . . ?"

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/05/26/1680716/concern-grows-over-epidemic-veteran.html#storylink=cpy

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/12/03/1930523/va-staff-shortages-still-affecting.html

If we want to do something patriot, we can insist that we fight only when we have to--that military action is our last resort--that we fight to win and that we take care of the men and women who have served.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2012 09:01PM by robertb.

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Posted by: bignevermo ( )
Date: June 01, 2012 02:55PM

"If we want to do something patriot, we can insist that we fight only when we have to--that military action is our last resort--that we fight to win and that we take care of the men and women who have served."

thats how I feel!

just sayin!

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Posted by: Timothy ( )
Date: June 01, 2012 03:01PM


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Posted by: robertb ( )
Date: June 01, 2012 09:08PM

You're welcome, Timothy, and thank you to you and everyone who has served. As an aside, I have been told the Secretary of the VA takes a very active role in trying to improve services and performance. He meets with groups of vets--no adminstrators, media, or politicians--in closed-door meetings and asks for the good and the bad of dealing with the VA. They, of course, oblige as only vets can do :-)

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: May 30, 2012 09:38AM

Right on. Thanks for the observation.

As an American myself, I know the constant need to be stroked and be made to feel good. I believe that Americans have a palpable collective insecurity, constantly saying to themselves as a nation, "We're Number One! (Right? We are, aren't we? I think we are. Yes!, we are! I think. Our military is big, right? Yes! Wait...)." It actually drives me nuts. I still work for a very conservative agency of the government, and am constantly at odds with my co-workers. We have two large flat-screen TVs overhead in my operations area that run Fox "News" constantly, and I have to deal with co-workers' fears about having guns taken away, having minorities take over, etc.

My take: The United States are on a downward spiral. It's not because of right- or left-wing politics, or not accepting a Christian-oriented political agenda, or anything like that. It's because we as a nation have had our good run, and now someone else will take over. All nations and empires begin to fracture at some point, outlive their usefulness, and eventually become less relevant. Americans are no different, and there is no model in history of a nation that has endured forever in their original condition. My only fear is what will happen and how it will unfold, what degree of violence it will entail.

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Posted by: ss ( )
Date: May 30, 2012 09:48AM

What is Patriotism? by John Tchaar (GOOGLE)
...to address the question of just what patriotism is and ought be: Is there a patriotism that is not nationalistic? How does the historic internationalism of the liberal left relate to the concept of patriotism? What do you value in the traditions of your country?

John Schaar, whose eloquent meditation on patriotism ten years ago in "The Case for Patriotism" helped inform the questions underlying this chautauqua, leads off:

Nietzsche wrote that words with a history cannot be defined. Their meanings are in their stories, their biographies. That is surely the case with "patriotism." Patriotism is as patriots have done. And in relatively recent times--say, since the American and French revolutions--those who have called themselves patriots or who have called others to the banner of patriotism have largely fallen into two camps.

The first company, whose signature is on so many of the bloodiest pages of the modern age, has its spiritual roots in the radical ideologies of the French Revolution. They announced the advent of a new god on earth and a new prophet/commander whose voice was the voice of that god. The new god, of course, was la patrie, the nation, and the new commander was the state.

Abbé Sieyès named the new god: "The nation exists before all. It is the origin of everything. It is the law itself." By 1792, in a petition addressed to the National Assembly, the ferociously jealous claims of the of the new god were made chillingly clear: "The image of the patrie is the sole divinity which it is permitted to worship."

Those claims have echoed in a thousand variations from that day to this. It is the worship of national power, of national greatness, nearly always expressed as power over other peoples and qualities, and as power that acknowledges no limits on its own assertion. This voice has been as clamorous and continuous in our own country as in many others. The line from Col. Alexander Hamilton to Lieut. Col. Oliver North is strong and pure.

The other company of patriots does not march to military time. It prefers the gentle strains of "America the Beautiful" to the strident cadences of "Hail to the Chief" and "The Stars and Stripes Forever." This patriotism is rooted in the love of one's own land and people, love too of the best ideals of one's own culture and tradition. This company of patriots finds no glory in puffing their country up by pulling others' down. This patriotism is profoundly municipal, even domestic. Its pleasures are quiet, its services steady and unpretentious.

This patriotism too has deep roots and long continuity in our history. Its voice is often temporarily shouted down by the battle cries of the first company, but it has never been stilled. Jefferson spoke for it, as did Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr.

We should not be surprised if this voice is often heard lamenting or rebuking the country's failures to live up to its own best ideals, which have always been the ideals of the fullest possible freedom and the most nearly equal justice for all. Its specifically political ideal found its finest expression in Lincoln's "government of, by and for the people," and the American domestic patriot is often heard calling fellow citizens and their officials to this standard. That call is distinctly a citizenly call, and never more so than when, as Father Mapple's wonderful sermon in Moby-Dick has it, the citizen stands firm "against the proud gods and commodores of this earth" and calls every violation of the covenant to account "though he pluck it out from under the robes of Senators and Judges." by by John Tchaar



Showing 3 comments of 3



Patriotism means several things to me. On the one hand, there is the traditional sense, demonstrated by a common wish to maintain, yet also improve the well-being of the population. This is completely different from the extremist flag-waving and narrow-minded jingoism, which I define as 'pseudo-patriotism'.

What I believe in is not this hateful misappropriation of the concept.

Although we citizens may not agree on all issues, we should have respect for others and their ideas, and a mutual wish to work out our differences.

By nurturing a cohesive nation whose citizens share a genuine sense of commonality, we develop the country to adapt to modern times and the new needs that come with it.

Additionally, it wasn't too long ago that paying taxes was considered patriotic. The late Supreme Court Justice, Oliver Wendell Holmes, felt that one's true investment in a society was by paying taxes, to maintain a civilization.

It is a shame that this view has fallen from favor with so many Americans today.

One day, I hope that the USA will have learned from the bitter lessons of its past.

Remember what Abraham Lincoln said: "A house divided against itself cannot stand."







2. posted by: ttr at 07/03/2010 @ 2:37am



Give thanks to the patriots, all hear, near and far

Who fight for equality, freedom Templars

Raise your sights to our union, our fine common toil

Finding strength in communion with our land, sea and soil

All races embracing the right to proceed

To full understanding, success without greed

Both sexes a dancing commingling skills

So true to our natures, our passionate wills

As lovers we treasure the whole of our joys

And find in each other a love that employs

So to with our country, we give her our best

Each in our own way without jeering or jest

Procuring from study, and learning from life

Constitutional savvy, ameliorates strife

The civil among us are patriots most

And to the peacemakers true patriots toast

From heartlands to seaports, and back again flows

Warm winds of democracy... that all the world knows

That the founders were patriots, seems obvious now

And they showed us quite clearly... despite the cash cow.

The birth of Democracy was 'unnatural' to those

Who found deference to tyrants a profitable pose

And so now dear patriots, who tryst in times present

True wealth for all classes finds love now more pleasant.







3. posted by: mmuoio at 07/02/2010 @ 1:35pm



Patriotism is a misguided belief that if you participate in dialog laced with nationalistic references you are somehow more correct and more righteous than other other citizens that may not agree with your jingoism.

Patriotism is heralded by fascists as a means to align the masses. Germany and Japan in the 1930's are the best contemporary examples.

Bush and Cheney used the 911 attacks to invade 2 nations preemptively and to violate the rights of every American.

These events were done through the jingoism of Patriotism.

The USA has very dangerous Patriotism, whereas Canada's would be more civil as it is more sane.

What patriotism is in the USA is destroying the country.

We all have a lot of reflection to do on this 234th anniversary of our birth.

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Posted by: helamonster ( )
Date: May 30, 2012 02:49PM

It's still the absolute last word on the subject. When I read that I thought immediately of a mormon congregation.

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Posted by: Richard Fox ( )
Date: June 01, 2012 08:17AM

http://www.ntua.gr/lurk/making/warprayer.html

By the way, it is unfortunately commonplace for people to commit much the same hypocrisy (like praying for others' suffering and death) when they conventionally express gratitude that they are better off than someone else, that they have food ('while Ethiopians are starving'), that they didn't make some mistake that others made, even that they survived some disaster that killed others. The other side of such gratitude for their own safety is the ugly reality that others were not safe. Thus such gratitude DEPENDS on the greater suffering of others.

People also characteristically look to see whether they HAVE more than others--enough more--as a gauge for whether they should feel grateful. The mindset behind this is the presumption that this world IS a competition (dare I say it, a Darwinian struggle for survival), a win-lose proposition, where one is grateful, whether by fate or effort, to be on the winning side.

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Posted by: cludgie ( )
Date: June 01, 2012 09:59AM

I think true patriotism is like what the Danes and Italians practice. Danes and Italians love their countries. In Denmark, there's a Danish flag flying in the yard of practically every house. But their love of their country is where it ends. They do not try to impose Danish rules or Danish democracy on anyone else. They just love Denmark. Who wouldn't? It's beautiful, they have great bread, and they are the nicest people.

Italians love Italy. They know that it has the finest wines and the most beautiful mountains and villages. They don't wear their nation on their sleeve, but will never be comfortable living outside their country where they believe the quality of life is inferior to their own. Screw the government. They hate the government, but neither do they need it; Italy operates on its own kind of steam that is not derived from government. There is no desire to inflict Italian government on any other nation. They just love Italy. Who wouldn't? It's beautiful, they have great wine and superior cooking. If you look around, it seems kind of fun to be Italian.

What Americans demonstrate is not "patriotism." It's more like a vague militaristic jingoism powered by what could be a collective inferiority complex. There's something weird about a land that has a visibly inferior quality of life in comparison to other developed countries, yet still thinks it has to insinuate itself everywhere and needs constant stroking and being told how great it is.

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Posted by: elcid ( )
Date: June 01, 2012 10:28AM

I love America, warts and all. But I am concerned that we will backslide into a theocracy of sorts.

Patriotism to me is being a contributing, useful citizen to the extent possible.

Military service should be compulsary. Everyone should do two years and be in a ready reserve. I don't agree with putting the sacrifice on a very small number of volunteers. It's just too much for so few.

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Posted by: brigantia ( )
Date: June 01, 2012 10:41AM

We put them willingly into the firing line, some don't make it back safely or in one piece. These are barely out of childhood.

Forgive me but I've attended a Racing Regatta by invitation from a British Army base, in a Greek Island, a stone's throw from Syria, this past month.

The centre beach, where the race started from, was pristine and quiet.

To the right was a 'Decompression' beach. Kids had just arrived back from Helmand and were being 'decompressed'. They had one day to play on huge inflatable toys, still under threat of re-deployment, before returning to their home barracks in the UK.

Could we resist cheering and clapping these boys? You bet we couldn't. Whether it is right or wrong doesn't matter - they are kids and deserve better from our grown-up world.

To the left was the 'outgoing' beach. Another regiment was playing on the same type of toys before being sent into hell.

What are we doing?!

We retired and older folks were enjoying a Summer Regatta in the middle of all this madness.

I have a very poignant picture of a soldier, standing on the mole, watching the racing. He has one leg and is clearly there helping the boys decompress.

I've had a wonderful break but that scenario messed with my head.

Briggy

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